Devils Team Discussion (team/player news and notes) ‎2015 offseason

[DiscoBall]

First define Superstar.

A player that, at that time, would be considered top 5 at LW/C/RW

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

I don't think a 9th overall in meh draft is too much to pay for any established NHL player in any case...

I think paying a goalie 6 million a year in this league is just plain ol silly...

Think of it this way:

In Detriot Holland has always argued against over paying for Stay at home Dmen....Doesn't mean he doesn't have any on his team or they can't help or play a role...it just means he wouldn't PAY them a lot...And yet he traded Sebastien Piche and 2012 1st round pick for Kyle Quincy and back in the day he gave up a 2nd and a 3rd for Ulf Samuelsson. Holland thinks SAH Dman are marginal yet he has traded significant assets to fill holes and make runs in the playioffs with those very types of players... and when he is done with them he lets them walk, no big contract, he lets someone else do that...It is smart. I see goalies in a similar light to the way Holland sees Stay at Home Dmen

picking up a kyle quincy or a samuelsson is a lot different from picking up cory schneider as your 20+ year GOAT starter is fading out of your system.

quincy and samuelsson likely weren't viewed as long-term solutions when they were acquired. cory was. hence, the trade and the ensuing extension.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Boston is the only team in recent memory to win without a legit forward superstar and even then, they had Krejci and Lucic close to 70 points to go along with Bergeron and Horton

 

[JimEIV]

A player that, at that time, would be considered top 5 at LW/C/RW

In two post we you went from top 10 to top 15 by saying L/C/R....Yeah, I'm not playing the "considered" game because you'll tell Krejci or Bergeon is top in something when the first team I name is Boston...Which would be nonsense...Same for LA both years thats 3 or 4 last cups by the way.

 

[DiscoBall]

In two post we you went from top 10 to top 15 by saying L/C/R....Yeah, I'm not playing the "considered" game because you'll tell Krejci or Bergeon is top in something when the first team I name is Boston...Which would be nonsense...Same for LA both years thats 3 or 4 last cups by the way.

Bergeon and Kopitar are both top 5 centers and you know it.

 

[JimEIV]

picking up a kyle quincy or a samuelsson is a lot different from picking up cory schneider as your 20+ year GOAT starter is fading out of your system.

quincy and samuelsson likely weren't viewed as long-term solutions when they were acquired. cory was. hence, the trade and the ensuing extension.

I completely agree... Yet Holland, who doesn't value the type of player STILL payed a 1st and prospect in one instance and 2nd and 3rd in another..

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Kopitar is a star forward.

 

[Missionhockey]

I don't think a 9th overall in meh draft is too much to pay for any established NHL player in any case...

I think paying a goalie 6 million a year in this league is just plain ol silly...

Think of it this way:

In Detriot Holland has always argued against over paying for Stay at home Dmen....Doesn't mean he doesn't have any on his team or they can't help or play a role...it just means he wouldn't PAY them a lot...And yet he traded Sebastien Piche and 2012 1st round pick for Kyle Quincy and back in the day he gave up a 2nd and a 3rd for Ulf Samuelsson. Holland thinks SAH Dman are marginal yet he has traded significant assets to fill holes and make runs in the playioffs with those very types of players... and when he is done with them he lets them walk, no big contract, he lets someone else do that...It is smart. I see goalies in a similar light to the way Holland sees Stay at Home Dmen

$6 million is right in line with what he should be making though. Fleury cap is $5.75, Price's cap is $6.5 and the whopper is Lundqvist at $8.5. $6 is the going rate for a good goaltender at least.

 

[JimEIV]

Bergeon and Kopitar are both top 5 centers and you know it.

LOL...Ok boss...How did I know that was coming

They weren't anywhere near top 10 in scoring the year they won the cup...

and I think you have a tough time with putting any of those guys over Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Getzlaf or Datsyuk at the time or Taveras now.

 

[Missionhockey]

Bergeon and Kopitar are both top 5 centers and you know it.

There's a good argument that one of them isn't.

Crosby
Malkin
Giroux
Toews
Bergeron/Kopitar

Plus, if you want to go currently, you can throw Seguin in there.

Edit: Forgot about Getzlaf.

 

[Drewr15]

The first butterfly goalie to really be successful was Tony Esposito with the Blackhawks back in 1969. Vanbiesbrouck was a butterfly style goalie and drafted 3 years before Roy. Ken Wregget was an '82 pick and played butterfly. Don Beaupre and Andy Moog were '80 draft picks who played it.

Roy really just made the butterfly style well-known. Goaltenders had already been shifting to it for years before that. By the mid '90's, the only stand up goalies in the league were Brodeur, Burke, McLean and Hextall.

Chris Terrerri begs to differ. Also Richter was not a pure butterfly goalie either but yes my point was by the mid 90s the butterfly was taking over but you had said mid 80s in your earlier post and definitely Smith, and Fuhr and Vernon, etc were not um butterfliers? Is that a word?

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

I completely agree... Yet Holland, who doesn't value the type of player STILL payed a 1st and prospect in one instance and 2nd and 3rd in another..

what are you trying to say? that GM's pay handsome prices for players whose position they don't value as highly?

how does the cost of a few of holland's deadline acquisitions have anything to do with schneider and his extension?

samuelsson and quincey were two rental-type acquisitions when detroit was gearing up for playoff runs. the situation with cory is entirely the opposite, which is why the extension was almost an expectation

 

[ForeverJerseyGirl]

Please list the cup winners since 2003 without superstar/top 10 forwards.

Depends on what you mean by superstar. You need good two-way forwards (preferably centers) to win Stanley Cups, but rarely do win with the fanciest, flashiest forwards like Ovechkin.

2014-Best Forward:Kopitar (an excellent two way player but not a true superstar)

2013-Best Forward: Toews (again, a phenomenal two way player but not a superstar)

2012-Kopitar again

2011-Best Forward: Bergeron (see Kopitar and Toews)

2010- Toews again

2009- Rare case of superstars in Malkin and Crosby actually winning.

2008- Coin toss between Datsyuk and Zetterberg for best forward, but both are elite two-way forwards

You need good forwards (and strong defense and excellent goaltending) to win a Cup, but you're better off with the Selke finalists than the Art Ross/Rocket Richard winners in my opinion. Selke finalists are good offensively and defensively, and you normally can afford to get more depth in your forward lines. You can't win with bad forwards, but you rarely actually win with Crosby and Ovechkin. You're better off with a Toews or a Kopitar, so you can pay for a Carter or a Hossa to contribute from other lines for a few years, so your team has the depth to win the Cup. One player doesn't carry his team to a Cup. There needs to be depth around him. Depth and elite players made the Hawks and Kings great the past few years. Can't win the Cup without elite players, but can't win the Cup without depth either. With superstars, you run the risk of sacrificing too much depth and putting all the eggs in one basket as the expression goes.

Ultimately, that's what I'm getting at. I'd rather have the second tier of forward (Toews, Kopitar, and Bergeron, and be able to add more depth around them) than the first tier (Ovechkin and Crosby and have to sacrifice depth in order to keep them around). Ovechkin and Crosby sell tickets but they don't necessarily win Cups. I think you can get that second tier of forward at sixth overall. You can typically only get that first tier of forwards by tanking and then not having any real team to plop your first overall into, so you have to start from scratch. At sixth overall, you have some building blocks in place so you have more of a foundation in which to cement your sixth overall.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

toews isn't a superstar?

kopitar MAYBE isnt... i would certainly consider him one... but toews? lol.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Jonathan Toews is the definition of a superstar.

Anze Kopitar is a superstar. nearly a point per game player for his entire career and plays elite defense.

 

[HischierSeDgewOrk]

The Schneider trade will obviously set us back 10 years.
Had we not traded for him the following would have definitely happened:

Brodeur would have retired with 750 wins and retired with us and not St. Louis.
Kinkaid would have taken over and been a lock for 40 win seasons.
We would have stunk so bad this year we would have had a top 3 pick and won the lottery giving us McDavid instead of Zacha/Rantanen/Barzal etc.
We would have drafted Nichushkin and he wouldn't have gotten hurt with us and scored 30 goals easily.
Kovy would have come back to mentor Nichushkin scoring 40 goals.
McDavid would be scoring 30 goals this year.
We could have used the 6 million we paid Schneider to sign a 40 goal scoring forward.


So instead of having:

McDavid (30 goals)
Nichushkin (30 goals)
Kovy (40 goals)
40 goal scoring forward
Kinkaid (40 wins)

we have:

Barzal (10 goals)
Schneider (30 wins)

So we lost 10 wins a season and 130 goals.

The dominos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ForeverJerseyGirl]

toews isn't a superstar?

kopitar MAYBE... i would certainly consider him one... but toews? lol.

I guess I only think of Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, and Stamkos as "superstars."

I was just clarifying what I meant when I said I don't think you win with one superstar forward. I think you win with a good two-way center and depth around him at the forward position. I think recent Cup winners support that.

Superstar is a vague term. I was trying to clarify what I meant to avoid further confusion and potentially unnecessary debate. If one sees Toews as a superstar, sure, you win with a superstar, but the superstar is a Selke finalist, not an Art Ross winner or a Rocket Richard winner. That's what I'm driving at. I'd rather debate that premise than semantics, ultimately.

ETA: I only think Toews is considered a "superstar" by some because he's won multiple Cups. Same with Kopitar. Without the Cups, I don't think they're considered superstars, just very good forwards.

 

[DeVols]

There's a good argument that one of them isn't.

Crosby
Malkin
Giroux
Toews
Bergeron/Kopitar

Plus, if you want to go currently, you can throw Seguin in there.

Edit: Forgot about Getzlaf.

Add Stamkos.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

The Schneider trade will obviously set us back 10 years.
Had we not traded for him the following would have definitely happened:

Brodeur would have retired with 750 wins and retired with us and not St. Louis.
Kinkaid would have taken over and been a lock for 40 win seasons.
We would have stunk so bad this year we would have had a top 3 pick and won the lottery giving us McDavid instead of Zacha/Rantanen/Barzal etc.
We would have drafted Nichushkin and he wouldn't have gotten hurt with us and scored 30 goals easily.
Kovy would have come back to mentor Nichushkin scoring 40 goals.
McDavid would be scoring 30 goals this year.
We could have used the 6 million we paid Schneider to sign a 40 goal scoring forward.


So instead of having:

McDavid
Nichushkin
Kovy
40 goal scoring forward
Kinkaid (40 wins)

we have:

Barzal
Shneider (30 wins)

So we lost 10 wins a season and 140 goals.

The dominos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you're kidding, right? please?

even if you are, why would you take the time to write that whole thing up that was a tough read

 

[DiscoBall]

LOL...Ok boss...How did I know that was coming

They weren't anywhere near top 10 in scoring the year they won the cup...

and I think you have a tough time with putting any of those guys over Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Getzlaf or Datsyuk at the time or Taveras now.

04 Lightning: St Louis, Vinny, Richards
06 Hurricanes: Staal
07 Ducks: Getzlaf, Perry
08 Wings: Zetterberg, Datsyuk
09 Pens: Sid, Malkin
10 Blackhawks: Toews, Kane, Hossa
11 Bruins: Bergeon
12 Kings: Kopitar
13 Hawks: Toews, Kane
14 Kings: Kopitar (Jeff Carter, Gaborik)

No forwards, No chance.

 

[Missionhockey]

Add Stamkos.

Ahhh as you can see, I didn't put a ton of thought into this list.

 

[JimEIV]

what are you trying to say? that GM's pay handsome prices for players whose position they don't value as highly?

No the value of a pick is Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay overate here... I wish I could of used a few more "a's" to get my point across. But a good established NHLer is significantly more than than 1st round pick. That draft was mediorce by all accounts and we gave up a chance for a player - That is ALWAYS a win in my view.

how does the cost of a few of holland's deadline acquisitions have anything to do with schneider and his extension?

It doesn't. Two separate conversations are getting mixed in here..


1. Trade good = futures for hard assets = ALWAYS win

2. Goalies dime a dozen = Should not PAY (take large cap space) for them.

The two are in NO WAY contradictory.

 

[tailfins]

picking up a kyle quincy or a samuelsson is a lot different from picking up cory schneider as your 20+ year GOAT starter is fading out of your system.

quincy and samuelsson likely weren't viewed as long-term solutions when they were acquired. cory was. hence, the trade and the ensuing extension.

Mirtle in support of the anti-big $ goalie.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...spending-big-on-most-goalies/article24058773/

I'm on record as saying that I don't like the strategy behind the Cory trade, but from a value perspective it was excellent. I do think the extension was somewhat a forgone conclusion once the trade was made.

Getting a top flight NHL player for the #9 pick is a no brainer. And the strategy of focusing on spending money on the positions that are on the ice also makes theoretical sense. Why not have your best players be the ones who spend 20+ min on ice (D) or 60 min (G)? So, if you've made those decisions, getting a starting goalie for #9 is fantastic.

The issue is just whether or not there's enough separation between good and excellent / whether or not you're buying at the peak. Cory is 29. It's debatable when goalies start declining, but I don't think anyone would say that goalies get better in their 30s. I also think that average goaltending can look very good behind good puck possession teams. To pick one of Bleed's favorite targets...I don't think Scrivens went from amazing in LA to terrible in Edmonton - I think there's some amount of Scrivens being protected vs. exposed by systems. I think the Devils have historically played a system that allows goalies to excel. Yes, Marty was a superstar, but Weekes, VBK, Clemmer, and Hedberg all had periods of success on the Devils as well. I think we could have looked for more forwards and went cheaper on goal.

Whatever - what's done is done. The Devils are building from the net out. At this point, they just need to find enough offense to win 2-1 or 3-2. I'm on board.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

No the value of a pick is Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay overate here... I wish I could of used a few more "a's" to get my point across. But a good established NHLer is significantly more than than 1st round pick. That draft was mediorce by all accounts and we gave up a chance for a player - That is ALWAYS a win in my view.



It doesn't. Two separate conversations are getting mixed in here..


1. Trade good = futures for hard assets = ALWAYS win

2. Goalies dime a dozen = Should not PAY (take large cap space) for them.

The two are in NO WAY contradictory.

well, we agree on your first point about trades.

and somewhat on your second point. i agree that 80% of goalies are interchangeable, but cory is in the class of goalies where it is advisable to lock him up on a big contract with big term and big dollars.

 

[JimEIV]

04 Lightning: St Louis, Vinny, Richards
06 Hurricanes: Staal
07 Ducks: Getzlaf, Perry
08 Wings: Zetterberg, Datsyuk
09 Pens: Sid, Malkin
10 Blackhawks: Toews, Kane, Hossa
11 Bruins: Bergeon
12 Kings: Kopitar
13 Hawks: Toews, Kane
14 Kings: Kopitar (Jeff Carter, Gaborik)

You really have no idea what you are talking about....In 2007 Getzlaf and Perry were pups... Anaheim top 3 scorers were Selanne, Andy McDonald and Scott Niedermayer....
and Selanne wasn't top 10 in the league that year.

Kopitar was not in t 10 in league EITHER year they won the cup neither was Bergeon.

But I'm sure you're just going to go on calling anyone top 10