Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part III

[JrFischer54]

The team needs to look out for it's best interests. You think it's a good thing if he scores a hatty, makes espn goal of the week, gets added to pre game videos and such all the while being investigated for TWO instances of sexual assualt and then is found to have done it? C'mon, i know people can be stubborn but this is just common sense. How's it look when a female reporter has to interview him post game and he is under investigation. Imagine how that reporter feels if he's found to have done it twice? No one said don't pay him just can't run the risk of having to promote him either. Imagine the backlash if he has a significant impact on the ice and team has to promote him and then is found to have done it.... TWICE?

twice?

 

[HBK27]

i've said it before and say it again players on that team absolutely know what did and didn't happen. noway does something like that happen without word spreading. so while its nice that people are coming out denying involvement years later they didn't seem to have problem keeping quiet for years.

I love the Monday Morning Quarterbacking about how YOU would've done the "right thing" if put in that situation.

Let's say that you were part of that team and had absolutely nothing to do with this incident. Certainly, you know that something happened, given there was an investigation and you were in all likelihood questioned about what you knew. I'm sure you'd ask around your teammates to find out what happened, but do you think you're getting the same story as what is being written about this that's coming from the alleged victim? Of course not. All you're going to hear from teammates (whether first or second hand) was that everything that happened that night was on the up and up and that it's a false accusation being leveled against them, or that she consented and later regretted it or something along those lines.

Chances are you may not even know what the full accusations were before reading the stories that came out this summer.

Regardless, you know that the matter is being investigated by both Team Canada and the police, so I think most people would think the issue is being handled.

So, please tell me exactly what actions YOU would've personally taken years ago if put in that situation given your current criticism of players that "didn't seem to have problem keeping quiet for years."

 

[Homedresser]

twice?

There is another incident involving the 2018 team.

"Hockey Canada has hired law firm Henein Hutchison to investigate a separate 2018 sexual assault allegation that also occurred in 2017 in London, Ontario, also involving members of the 2018 World Junior team."

 

[GameSeven]

Newark's own MCR with a little NJD cross-promotion merch tonight:

 

[HBK27]

The team needs to look out for it's best interests. You think it's a good thing if he scores a hatty, makes espn goal of the week, gets added to pre game videos and such all the while being investigated for TWO instances of sexual assualt and then is found to have done it? C'mon, i know people can be stubborn but this is just common sense. How's it look when a female reporter has to interview him post game and he is under investigation. Imagine how that reporter feels if he's found to have done it twice? No one said don't pay him just can't run the risk of having to promote him either. Imagine the backlash if he has a significant impact on the ice and team has to promote him and then is found to have done it.... TWICE?

The team should take swift and strong action if/when any evidence of misconduct on McLeod's part is proven.

There is (another) ongoing investigation into the matter - there is no reason for the team to jump the gun and potentially falsely smear their player as guilty if he may have done nothing wrong. Let the investigation play out and go from there.

You want to potentially sacrifice McLeod at the alter just in case it leads to some bad PR, despite no actual wrongdoing on behalf of Devils management.

 

[JrFischer54]

I love the Monday Morning Quarterbacking about how YOU would've done the "right thing" if put in that situation.

Let's say that you were part of that team and had absolutely nothing to do with this incident. Certainly, you know that something happened, given there was an investigation and you were in all likelihood questioned about what you knew. I'm sure you'd ask around your teammates to find out what happened, but do you think you're getting the same story as what is being written about this that's coming from the alleged victim? Of course not. All you're going to hear from teammates (whether first or second hand) was that everything that happened that night was on the up and up and that it's a false accusation being leveled against them, or that she consented and later regretted it or something along those lines.

Chances are you may not even know what the full accusations were before reading the stories that came out this summer.

Regardless, you know that the matter is being investigated by both Team Canada and the police, so I think most people would think the issue is being handled.

So, please tell me exactly what actions YOU would've personally taken years ago if put in that situation given your current criticism of players that "didn't seem to have problem keeping quiet for years."

theres no monday qb anything. once made aware of the situation i would tell whoever that i didn't do it its pretty simple. doesn't jeopardize any police investigation or anything like that. i think part of the problem is people staying quiet because they can when they are innocent thats the problem.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Newark's own MCR with a little NJD cross-promotion merch tonight:

This is badass. Buying.

Edit: Ah, only at the show. DARN. If anyone goes please get me a size L! I’ll paypal/zelle/venmo/carrier pigeon the funds.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

Maybe let's just stop talking about McLeod in regard to off ice things considering we have absolutely ZERO information on anything revolving around this alleged incident.

I for one am excited to see what McLeod can provide this season as a 4C. If he can be closer to the player he was in the 2020-21 season, I'd be ecstatic. If he is more of the player we saw last season, then I think it's best to move on from him after this year.

 

[HBK27]

theres no monday qb anything. once made aware of the situation i would tell whoever that i didn't do it its pretty simple. doesn't jeopardize any police investigation or anything like that. i think part of the problem is people staying quiet because they can when they are innocent thats the problem.

Maybe that's what those guys did. This wasn't a public story until two months ago, so how would any of us know?
You said that "they didn't seem to have a problem keeping quiet for years" - were they supposed to go to the press to alert them about the incident and deny any involvement?

Your post clearly (as clear as it can get with the way you write) is assigning some type of blame on players that had nothing to do with this for somehow not coming forward years ago.

i've said it before and say it again players on that team absolutely know what did and didn't happen. noway does something like that happen without word spreading. so while its nice that people are coming out denying involvement years later they didn't seem to have problem keeping quiet for years.

 

[Homedresser]

The team should take swift and strong action if/when any evidence of misconduct on McLeod's part is proven.

There is (another) ongoing investigation into the matter - there is no reason for the team to jump the gun and potentially falsely smear their player as guilty if he may have done nothing wrong. Let the investigation play out and go from there.

You want to potentially sacrifice McLeod at the alter just in case it leads to some bad PR, despite no actual wrongdoing on behalf of Devils management.

seriously, do you not comprehend what is being said to you? there is another INCIDENT being investigated by authorities. NOT another investigation into the same matter. That means TWO incidents involving the 2018 team. Again, I didn't say cut him. Pay him and keep him off the ice until the matter is cleared. I can't put it any simplier than that.

 

[HBK27]

seriously, do you not comprehend what is being said to you? there is another INCIDENT being investigated by authorities. NOT another investigation into the same matter. That means TWO incidents involving the 2018 team. Again, I didn't say cut him. Pay him and keep him off the ice until the matter is cleared. I can't put it any simplier than that.

Did they also investigate this incident previously and not press any charges?

How many players are alleged to be part of this second incident and what makes you believe that McLeod was involved? Or should every player from those teams be kept off the ice until the matter is cleared? Or do those that deny involvement to the original incident being discussed get a pass?

I never suggested you said to cut him. But you don't think that keeping him off the ice sends a message of presumptive guilt on his part?

I completely comprehend what you're suggesting and 100% disagree with it.

 

[JrFischer54]

Maybe that's what those guys did. This wasn't a public story until two months ago, so how would any of us know?
You said that "they didn't seem to have a problem keeping quiet for years" - were they supposed to go to the press to alert them about the incident and deny any involvement?

Your post clearly (as clear as it can get with the way you write) is assigning some type of blame on players that had nothing to do with this for somehow not coming forward years ago.

man dude your annoying AF lol what are you even getting at i dont get it like i've said already what i would've done. nothing else really can be said about it we just think differently about things and thats fine. your fine with mikey not saying thing and think it doesn't make him look guilty i think thats insane and makes him look guilty. your fine playing him while being investigated i'm not. to me thats weird but to each their own.

Did they also investigate this incident previously and not press any charges?

How many players are alleged to be part of this second incident and what makes you believe that McLeod was involved? Or should every player from those teams be kept off the ice until the matter is cleared? Or do those that deny involvement to the original incident being discussed get a pass?

I never suggested you said to cut him. But you don't think that keeping him off the ice sends a message of presumptive guilt on his part?

I completely comprehend what you're suggesting and 100% disagree with it.

so you are fine having someone being investigated for this particular incident playing on the team until final verdict comes out correct?

 

[My3Sons]

if you think hes innocent and him not speaking is perfectly fine good for you. i think any reasonable person would think it makes him look bad and guilty but hey thats just me

This is where you lose credibility. Where do I say or imply he's innocent? How do you extract that from any of my statements? Why does him not speaking imply I think he's innocent? Conflating two things that can absolutely be mutually exclusive is inappropriate and objectionable. Have a fair discussion. Your points are valid in that it's not looking good for McLeod and as a non lawyer you'd prefer to see the team act preemptively rather than wait for official findings if they have an avenue to do that. As a lawyer I even agree with that. My only point in rebutting you is that I'm reading your posts as thinly veiled personal insults and you are disparaging the process put in place to protect genuinely innocent people and the team has to live with that. There is an adage about our legal system whose exact wording escapes me but is paraphrased as "our system should allow ten guilty people to go free so that one innocent man is not wrongfully convicted".

 

[Bleedred]

Kind of weird that Chara retires the same day as PK Subban, yet Chara is 12 years older and Chara was already in the league almost as long as Subban even played in the league in his entire career, at the time Subban played his first game in the NHL. He did lose a year to lockout, so it's probably a bit less than I thought. Chara retires playing over twice as many regular season games as Subban and just over twice as many playoff games as well.

I had to look it up. Chara had already played 847 games in the NHL as of the end of the 09-10 season. PK Subban debuted in the NHL in the 09-10 season, playing just two games, both in February of 2010.

Subban played 834 games.

So Chara had already played Subban's career games at least by the time Subban became a full time NHL player in 10-11.

 

[HBK27]

so you are fine having someone being investigated for this particular incident playing on the team until final verdict comes out correct?

Yes, I am. And if something against McLeod comes out from this investigation I won't hold it against the Devils for not taking action sooner while the investigation played out.

Do you think that any player on that team should be allowed to play while the current investigation is ongoing or should each NHL club sit them pending the results of investigation?

 

[OmNomNom]

can we not character bash each other, preseason starts tmrw

 

[My3Sons]

so you are fine having someone being investigated for this particular incident playing on the team until final verdict comes out correct?

Charles Manson and the surviving Nazi high command all stood trial and were provided defense counsel. Do you really think anyone thought they were innocent? Stop accusing posters of saying that due process implies innocence. You have reasonable points you can make without insulting people or trying to put words in their posts.

In almost all instances I think McLeod has to be allowed to play while there is an investigation. I'd say there is wiggle room for the team if they learn something so damaging that they can confront the NHLPA with it and get them to agree to McLeod sitting at home and getting paid until the formal findings are made. My guess is that the teams involved have spoken to the NHLPA and there is some working plan in place for dealing with this. I doubt the NJ Devils want to ice someone proven to be involved in sexual assault. There's more to this than just our emotions and sense of morality.

 

[JrFischer54]

Yes, I am. And if something against McLeod comes out from this investigation I won't hold it against the Devils for not taking action sooner while the investigation played out.

Do you think that any player on that team should be allowed to play while the current investigation is ongoing or should each NHL club sit them pending the results of investigation?

unless they can 100% be cleared of not being in the room then yeah they should sit.

 

[JrFischer54]

This is where you lose credibility. Where do I say or imply he's innocent? How do you extract that from any of my statements? Why does him not speaking imply I think he's innocent? Conflating two things that can absolutely be mutually exclusive is inappropriate and objectionable. Have a fair discussion. Your points are valid in that it's not looking good for McLeod and as a non lawyer you'd prefer to see the team act preemptively rather than wait for official findings if they have an avenue to do that. As a lawyer I even agree with that. My only point in rebutting you is that I'm reading your posts as thinly veiled personal insults and you are disparaging the process put in place to protect genuinely innocent people and the team has to live with that. There is an adage about our legal system whose exact wording escapes me but is paraphrased as "our system should allow ten guilty people to go free so that one innocent man is not wrongfully convicted".

i'm not implying anything about any poster on here. all i said to kick this off is that he should be talking if hes innocent and make a statement. does he have to? no. people can obviously feel however they want about the legal comforts he has thats great they are in place. i don't like them they will never change and we are just talking on a msg board.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Kind of weird that Chara retires the same day as PK Subban, yet Chara is 12 years older and Chara was already in the league almost as long as Subban even played in the league in his entire career, at the time Subban played his first game in the NHL. He did lose a year to lockout, so it's probably a bit less than I thought. Chara retires playing over twice as many regular season games as Subban and just over twice as many playoff games as well.

I had to look it up. Chara had already played 847 games in the NHL as of the end of the 09-10 season. PK Subban debuted in the NHL in the 09-10 season, playing just two games, both in February of 2010.

Subban played 834 games.

So Chara had already played Subban's career games at least by the time Subban became a full time NHL player in 10-11.

What I got from all of this is we are all getting old AF lol.

 

[Devils731]

unless they can 100% be cleared of not being in the room then yeah they should sit.

So treat him as guilty until proven innocent? What if it’s only 99% sure he wasn’t even aware of any bad activities and/or not being in the room, should the 1% mean he should be punished?

If you can never resolve the 1% should he be stuck as unemployable for the rest of time?

 

[JrFischer54]

Charles Manson and the surviving Nazi high command all stood trial and were provided defense counsel. Do you really think anyone thought they were innocent? Stop accusing posters of saying that due process implies innocence. You have reasonable points you can make without insulting people or trying to put words in their posts.

In almost all instances I think McLeod has to be allowed to play while there is an investigation. I'd say there is wiggle room for the team if they learn something so damaging that they can confront the NHLPA with it and get them to agree to McLeod sitting at home and getting paid until the formal findings are made. My guess is that the teams involved have spoken to the NHLPA and there is some working plan in place for dealing with this. I doubt the NJ Devils want to ice someone proven to be involved in sexual assault. There's more to this than just our emotions and sense of morality.

hahahahaha talk about a hot take all i did was ask a question and he answered it

 

[My3Sons]

unless they can 100% be cleared of not being in the room then yeah they should sit.

I don't disagree with this premise, but unless the league entity is willing to take the blame and the NHLPA can be pushed into an agreement as well I just don't think it's feasible. If McLeod is guilty of something and after the findings are going to be made public the team can deal with the backlash. It won't cost them much. Maybe you stop going to games. Maybe a few others do. 99% of the public will live with "we were saddened to learn" and "we were compelled to let privacy and due process play out for all involved" and "we hope this can lead to healing and education to prevent something like this from ever happening again". You won't buy it and many of us will see it as just post hoc public relations, but whatever. Nobody will win a lawsuit against the team for that. In contrast if they unilaterally act now, they open themselves up to at least a grievance and maybe future litigation.

 

[JrFischer54]

So treat him as guilty until proven innocent? What if it’s only 99% sure he wasn’t even aware of any bad activities and/or not being in the room, should the 1% mean he should be punished?

If you can never resolve the 1% should he be stuck as unemployable for the rest of time?

hey man the guy asked a question i answered it.

no one is saying they are guilty until innocent YOU said that.

 

[TrufleShufle]

i mean i did say he has every right not to speak. so i'm not sure how i'm taking away his rights. he can do whatever he wants. and i can think however i want of his action or inaction just like you can think however you want from him not speaking if you think hes innocent and him not speaking is perfectly fine good for you. i think any reasonable person would think it makes him look bad and guilty but hey thats just me


again for the last time i can only say how i would act in this situation if i'm him and i didn't do anything i would 1000000000000000000000000000000% be saying that damned what my rights are what my lawyers say i dont care i would be telling everyone and anyone i didn't do this.

now if you are in that same situation and innocent would you remain silent? maybe you would i dunno but its also fair game then for the public to assume you could in fact be guilty.

i've said it before and say it again players on that team absolutely know what did and didn't happen. noway does something like that happen without word spreading. so while its nice that people are coming out denying involvement years later they didn't seem to have problem keeping quiet for years.

They way you keep jumping from argument to argument is showing you aren't thinking this through. I'll say with 100% confidence, that I have absolutely zero idea of what happened, who is or isn't guilty and that's why I'm not advocating for anything to "happen." If people are making choices, it's not on a whim or because he's good at faceoffs, I'd imagine they have taken all the information they have, gotten as much guidance as they could and made they choices they are making based off that. People screaming from the sideline always forget we have a fraction of the information that is available to those involved.

But these two quotes show you aren't doing any of that, instead just throwing emotions at a wall. In one, you say he should tell everyone he is innocent if he is, in the other you say, and said, and will say again that people on that team know what happened and imply they are also complicit. So if there is no winning either way, why not just keep quiet until there is no other choice?