Devils Team Discussion (current team/player news and notes) ‎PART XI

[JimEIV]

Yes we have - Jim was trying to make the case that save % does not have a strong effect on winning %. That is debunked.

I absolutely did make that claim...But that was not the main point. The point is there is no difference between goalies in this league and winning has nothing to do them. That is a little different than what you just stated.

Just to keep the record straight.

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

Essentially half the league has had a goalie who has been one of the best in the last 5 years....Now that is funny to me.

I say this to you in every thread: clearly any goaltender can fashion together a great season here and there (randomness is a key reason). Proving that goalies can do this does not disprove that goalie is an important position. Would you necessarily want Ilya Bryzgalov or Antti Niemi on our team?

What makes a goaltender good is ability to post top flight performance year in and year out. Henrik Lundqvist has been a top five goaltender in the NHL every season of his career - that's what a great goaltender is. Same goes for Roberto Luongo. And the same goes, hopefully, for Cory Schneider.

And just to zoom out a bit and throw some qualitative discussion into this. Would you actually claim that a guy like Dominik Hasek in the mid to late 90s was not absurdly valuable to his team winning?

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

I absolutely did make that claim...But that was not the main point. The point is there is no difference between goalies in this league and winning has nothing to do them. That is a little different than what you just stated.

Just to keep the record straight.

Why are you going to such an extreme? Do you actually believe there is no difference between Henrik Lundqvist as your starter and Ilya Bryzgalov?

 

[tycobb]

I was just looking at the Vezina finalist for the last 5 years and to my surprise only 2 people were finalist twice in the last 5 years 13 different people have been Vezina finalist in the last 5 years...Only Lundqvst and Rinne have been finalist more than once...13 different names out of 15 possible seems like an awful lot. I guess anybody can be the best goalie in the league at any given time. That is Because there NO FREAKIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ANY OF THEM!!!!



2014
Tuukka Rask
Semyon Varlamov
Ben Bishop

2013
Sergei Bobrovsky
Henrik Lundqvist
Antti Niemi

2012
Henrik Lundqvist
Jonathan Quick
Pekka Rinne

2011
Tim Thomas
Pekka Rinne
Roberto Luongo

2010
Ryan Miller
Ilya Bryzgalov
Martin Brodeur

Hart finalist

2014: Crosby, Getzlaf, Giroux
2013: Ovechkin, Crosby, Tavares
2012: Malkin, Stamkos, Lundqvist
2011: Perry, D. Sedin, St. Louis
2010: H. Sedin, Ovechkin, Crosby

Crosby and Ovechkin are the only multiple Hart finalist over those same years. I guess any player can be the best player in the world by your "logic".

 

[JimEIV]

I say this to you in every thread: clearly any goaltender can fashion together a great season here and there (randomness is a key reason). Proving that goalies can do this does not disprove that goalie is an important position. Would you necessarily want Ilya Bryzgalov or Antti Niemi on our team?

What makes a goaltender good is ability to post top flight performance year in and year out. Henrik Lundqvist has been a top five goaltender in the NHL every season of his career - that's what a great goaltender is. Same goes for Roberto Luongo. And the same goes, hopefully, for Cory Schneider.

Luongo isn't a top goaltender in the league hasn't been for a good 4/5 years. 2003 to about 2010 was Luongo's time and most of it has been down hill since.

I will concede Lundqvst and?????


After Lundqvst you start to get into what I call the piecemeal goaltenders...That is you have piecemeal 30 game season over multiple years to prove they have been doing it...Funny things, at NO TIME would anyone ever consider a goalie with great numbers over 30 games significant in anyway, shape or form...But you piecemeal a couple of 30 game season, maybe even 1 real season and it because significant.... I can Bench-press 550 lbs!!!! I just do 10 lbs 55 times...That is what the piecemeal goalie is doing in my mind.

 

[guitarguyvic]

I was just looking at the Vezina finalist for the last 5 years and to my surprise only 2 people were finalist twice in the last 5 years 13 different people have been Vezina finalist in the last 5 years...Only Lundqvst and Rinne have been finalist more than once...13 different names out of 15 possible seems like an awful lot. I guess anybody can be the best goalie in the league at any given time. That is Because there NO FREAKIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ANY OF THEM!!!!



2014
Tuukka Rask
Semyon Varlamov
Ben Bishop

2013
Sergei Bobrovsky
Henrik Lundqvist
Antti Niemi

2012
Henrik Lundqvist
Jonathan Quick
Pekka Rinne

2011
Tim Thomas
Pekka Rinne
Roberto Luongo

2010
Ryan Miller
Ilya Bryzgalov
Martin Brodeur

Hmmm, well in the four previous years to 2010 (post-lockout) there were 8 finalists, 2 more than once.

In the five previous seasons before that (2000-2004) there were 13 finalists, only 1 more than once (Marty).

The the five previous seasons before that (95-99) there were 11 finalists, 2 more than once.

And in the five previous seasons before that (90-94) there were 11 finalists, 2 more than once.

Seems pretty consistent.

I think you might be on to something here Jim. Perhaps goaltending has always been irrelevant!

 

[downtown56]

@ToddCordell: #NJDevils sign D Brandon Burlon to a two-year contract extension http://t.co/2x2S2TkJ05

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

Luongo isn't a top goaltender in the league hasn't been for a good 4/5 years. 2003 to about 2010 was Luongo's time and most of it has been down hill since.

I will concede Lundqvst and?????


After Lundqvst you start to get into what I call the piecemeal goaltenders...That is you have piecemeal 30 game season over multiple years to prove they have been doing it...Funny things, at NO TIME would anyone ever consider a goalie with great numbers over 30 games significant in anyway, shape or form...But you piecemeal a couple of 30 game season, maybe even 1 real season and it because significant.... I can Bench-press 550 lbs!!!! I just do 10 lbs 55 times...That is what the piecemeal goalie is doing in my mind.

Luongo has been very good over the last four to five years, third or fourth in save percentage over that time and top 10 in GAA. The only down season was 12-13, in which he only played 20 games because he had to contend with one of the other best goalies in the world being on his team. He also got flack for his contract, but that doesn't devalue what he does on the i

Lundqvist, Rask, Luongo, Schneider and possibly Rinne and Lehtonen are the upper tier of goalies in the NHL in my opinion.

 

[JimEIV]

Hart finalist

2014: Crosby, Getzlaf, Giroux
2013: Ovechkin, Crosby, Tavares
2012: Malkin, Stamkos, Lundqvist
2011: Perry, D. Sedin, St. Louis
2010: H. Sedin, Ovechkin, Crosby

Crosby and Ovechkin are the only multiple Hart finalist over those same years. I guess any player can be the best player in the world by your "logic".

You have far more redundancy in that list than the goaltender list.

Crosby name appears 3 times There is no a single goaltender in the league whose name appears 3 times as a Vezina trophy finalist in the last 5 years....

AND There are only 30 starting goaltenders!!! There are 180 top 6 forwards and 60 top pairing Dmen....So essentially 30 goalies +180 top 6 forwards + 60 top pairing Dmen --- there 270 people competing for the Hart and 30 for the Venzina....The non-redundency in the Vezina trophy is MIND Blowing!

 

[Mr Bojanglez]

I think having a good goalie can help you get to the playoffs. Over the course of a season, they can help win you more points than having a poor goalie would.

However, i do think you need a good or timely goalie come playoffs. When you're in Overtime there are only 3 players that matter. The two goalies and the guy who scores the winner.

It's tough to find a guy that does both (regular season consistency and Post-season clutchness). Lundqvist stepped up. Brodeur used to do it all time, with a decent mix of both as recent as 2012. Quick is inconsistent. Tuuka would be considered a good goalie by these standards - though he has the benefit of a good team.

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

You have far more redundancy in that list than the goaltender list.

Crosby name appears 3 times There is no a single goaltender in the league whose name appears 3 times as a Vezina trophy finalist in the last 5 years....

AND There are only 30 starting goaltenders!!! There are 180 top 6 forwards and 60 top pairing Dmen....So essentially 30 goalies +180 top 6 forwards + 60 top pairing Dmen --- there 270 people competing for the Hart and 30 for the Venzina....The non-redundency in the Vezina trophy is MIND Blowing!

Jim, it's not mind-blowing if you understand how the goalie position works. There is high year to year variability among most goalies, which produces outstanding seasons from a new Mike Smith each year. That goalie then doesn't come close to replicating the performance again.

 

[DevilsJunkie]

You know it's a Tuesday when....

@ToddCordell: #NJDevils sign D Brandon Burlon to a two-year contract extension http://t.co/2x2S2TkJ05

 

[tycobb]

You have far more redundancy in that list than the goaltender list.

Crosby name appears 3 times There is no a single goaltender in the league whose name appears 3 times as a Vezina trophy finalist in the last 5 years....

AND There are only 30 starting goaltenders!!! There are 180 top 6 forwards and 60 top pairing Dmen....So essentially 30 goalies +180 top 6 forwards + 60 top pairing Dmen --- there 270 people competing for the Hart and 30 for the Venzina....The non-redundency in the Vezina trophy is MIND Blowing!

How many HoF goalies are in their prime like Crosby?

I love how you think a team's 2nd line or 2nd best defenseman has a chance to win the Hart. In the history of the Hart there has been only 12 winners who played D (majority go to Shore - Orr).

 

[tycobb]

Jim, it's not mind-blowing if you understand how the goalie position works. There is high year to year variability among most goalies, which produces outstanding seasons from a new Mike Smith each year. That goalie then doesn't come close to replicating the performance again.

Just like there is high variability among skaters. Every year there is a few skaters who has a career year who plays above his career norms.

 

[JimEIV]

Jim, it's not mind-blowing if you understand how the goalie position works. There is high year to year variability among most goalies, which produces outstanding seasons from a new Mike Smith each year. That goalie then doesn't come close to replicating the performance again.

Thing is nobody really comes close to reproducing those performances again...The top 5 every year for the last 5 years is almost completely different from year to year...

Yes, I understand that some guys continue to perform at more constant levels than others......But when you start getting into 20+ different players who have been in the top 5 in SV% over the last 5 years (lots of ties so its a lot of people) with not a lot of duplication you have to question the difference between the best and the middle of the pack in any given year.

So you look at someone like Quick who posted a .929 in 2012 (was top 5) and he hasn't come close to that before or after that in his entire career....Is he not one of those ELITE goaltenders like Schnieder? Was Quick's .929 a one shot wonder?


'08-'09 LA .914
'09-'10 LA .907
'10-'11 LA .918
'11-'12 LA .929
'12-'13 LA .902
'13-'14 LA .915



How should I interpret this in your opinion?

 

[JimEIV]

How many HoF goalies are in their prime like Crosby?

I love how you think a team's 2nd line or 2nd best defenseman has a chance to win the Hart. In the history of the Hart there has been only 12 winners who played D (majority go to Shore - Orr).

Malkin is on the second line, No?

 

[glenwo2]

Luongo has been very good over the last four to five years, third or fourth in save percentage over that time and top 10 in GAA. The only down season was 12-13, in which he only played 20 games because he had to contend with one of the other best goalies in the world being on his team. He also got flack for his contract, but that doesn't devalue what he does on the i

Lundqvist, Rask, Luongo, Schneider and possibly Rinne and Lehtonen are the upper tier of goalies in the NHL in my opinion.

What about Jonathan Quick?

 

[JimEIV]

What about Jonathan Quick?

The save% numbers don't really work for him with a career average of .915

He is not as good as Schneider.

 

[njdevil26]

The NBCSN schedule is out. We have two games... one against Buffalo and one against St Louis. No rivalry night games. they have 108 or so games this season. If it were possible for NBC to care less about the Devils, here it is haha.

 

[schoenfeld]

What no "Wendsday Night Rivalry" game against our arch nemesis the florida panthers ?

 

[manilaNJ]

The NBCSN schedule is out. We have two games... one against Buffalo and one against St Louis. No rivalry night games. they have 108 or so games this season. If it were possible for NBC to care less about the Devils, here it is haha.

I wasn't expecting a rivalry game as we don't have many Wednesday night games.

At the very least we aren't the Coyotes (1) or Panthers (0), I suppose ...

 

[JimEIV]

When Quick gets that SV% up around .920 then we talk about him being good.

But until then its Lundqvist, Schneider, Rask and Luongo that are true Elites of the league.

Oh and Lehtonen. How can I forget Lehtonen!

 

[njdevil26]

They could at least have Devils/Rangers game or Devils/Flyers. Crazy.

 

[tycobb]

Malkin is on the second line, No?

Haha yep. One of the 3 best players in the world is the 2nd line center for Pitt. There must be a ton of situations like that around the NHL.

 

[JimEIV]

Why are you going to such an extreme? Do you actually believe there is no difference between Henrik Lundqvist as your starter and Ilya Bryzgalov?

Bryzgalov is not even a starter....Can you at least give me one who has started the last 2 years?