Prospect Info: Devils Prospect Rankings By Position

[Better Call Sal]

Cam Janssen getting namedropped? Come on, I love the guy, but.

 

[JimEIV]

Well lets qualify a few things here: What are your expectations for a top 10 pick? What about picks 10-20? And 20-31?
McLeod sure is disappointing, as I would expect/hope a pick in the 10-20 range to at least be a bottom 6 forward by their d+5 year and it looks like McLeod might be a 4th C and BEST. What about the expectations for picks in the 20-31 range? I realize many of these picks bust so to speak but should we have any expectations that these too should be contributing NHL players? Maybe you just have Stockholm syndrome from years and years of Lou/Conte pissing away draft picks; going from years 2000-2015, there are exactly 4 Devils 1st round draft picks still playing in the league (Parise, Zajac, Larsson and Zacha). Hell, you could probably even make an argument that Larsson is a bigger disappointment at 4 than McLeod at 12.

The bolded part is more of the same absurdity from your first post...Larsson is a player. A top 4 Dman...There is a very good chance McLeoad is a complete an utter bust and won't have any career to speak of. The comparison boarders on the verge of insanity.

A top 10 pick I expect a player...When you get down 30 I hope for a player. Of course all years aren't the same and some years the expectation is higher and some lower.

I think this board seriously fails to realize the difference in magnitude between missing at the top of a round vs missing at the very tail end of a round. You are the tail end of the round specifically because you are good. Missing is not going to make you immediately bad...The reverse is not true for the shitty team that misses their high picks. They are bad and will stay bad.

 

[MartyOwns]

I anticipated your silly response in post #194

i keep forgetting that you’re not allowed to draft valuable players when you have any sort of on-ice success.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Since we're relitigating our draft history... again, I figured I'd copy my contribution from an early discussion.

I don't understand this chart.

 

[JimEIV]

Cam Janssen getting namedropped? Come on, I love the guy, but.

He returned a Captain that is used in your avatar.........Just saying.

 

[Better Call Sal]

He returned a Captain that is used in your avatar.........Just saying.

This is true!

 

[JimEIV]

i keep forgetting that you’re not allowed to draft valuable players when you have any sort of on-ice success.

We did though...MUCH Better players than we have today. In Martin, Parise, Zajac, and Henrique. While winning 46 games per season and winning 2 cups and going to finals 3 times.

If that total package of wins/success/and players is "Incompetence", I want more Incompetence

 

[Oneiro]

The Zacha pick is worse than everything that Shero did. And if the McLeod pick has an extra sting, it is because Zacha is a middling player, outside of his PK contributions which are exaggerated when the other PKers are Zajac, Coleman, Palmieri and Hischier.

In a draft loaded with franchise players, Conte picked a fourth line center.

Jesper Bratt is, today, a better player than Fayne, Merrill, Larsson, Zacha and Wood ever will be. I expect to add Coleman and Henrique to that list two years from now as well.

 

[Azathoth]

The bolded part is more of the same absurdity from your first post...Larsson is a player. A top 4 Dman...There is a very good chance McLeoad is a complete an utter bust and won't have any career to speak of. The comparison boarders on the verge of insanity.

A top 10 pick I expect a player...When you get down 30 I hope for a player. Of course all years aren't the same and some years the expectation is higher and some lower.

I think this board seriously fails to realize the difference in magnitude between missing at the top of a round vs missing at the very tail end of a round. You are the tail end of the round specifically because you are good. Missing is not going to make you immediately bad...The reverse is not true for the shitty team that misses their high picks. They are bad and will stay bad.

Hey, I said you could argue, didn't say it was true or not (beside, I thought you of all people could appreciate an absurd argument ). My point was that Larsson wasn't even the best D taken in that draft, even though he was the first one off the board (and there were other forwards who would have been better off picked there too), so yes could be thought of as a disappointing 4th overall pick. I thought you used to shit over Larsson all the time back in the day, especially with the ascendance of Severson?

I really don't think missing McLeod was really all that surprising considering it was a bit of a weaker draft and lots of teams didn't really get a lot of value (Pool part at 4th, Juolevi at 5, Jost and Brown at 10 and 11 etc). Plus nobody really fell that year like we all were hoping. Without going back through prior drafts, I'd also wager that the most 12th overall picks don't amount to much more than a bottom 6 forward of bottom pairing D.

So sure, picking McLeod at 12 sucks. So do A LOT of the previous drafts.

 

[JimEIV]

The Zacha pick is worse than everything that Shero did. And if the McLeod pick has an extra sting, it is because Zacha is a middling player, outside of his PK contributions which are exaggerated when the other PKers are Zajac, Coleman, Palmieri and Hischier.

In a draft loaded with franchise players, Conte picked a fourth line center.

Jesper Bratt is, today, a better player than Fayne, Merrill, Larsson, Zacha and Wood ever will be. I expect to add Coleman and Henrique to that list two years from now as well.

Holy smokes exaggeration. Who are these franchise players? Provorov, Ratanen, Meire, Werenski? None of those guys are even the best players on there own team....Franchise? Come on...Or is this going to digress to that one particular #16 pick who may legitimately be a franchise player?

 

[MartyOwns]

now i’m not sure which decade you’re referring to. my decade produced 5 noteworthy players. 5 players! in 10 years! and you’re complaining about mcleod, that’s the hilarious part to me.

We did though...MUCH Better players than we have today. In Martin, Parise, Zajac, and Henrique.

martin, parise, zajac, and henrique is “much better” than hughes, nico, bratt, smith, holtz, mercer, foote, bahl, etc?

and of course, the kicker in all of this is that if lou/conte had drafted better, shero’s clubs would have had that winning thing you’re so fond of.

 

[Azathoth]

now i’m not sure which decade you’re referring to. my decade produced 5 noteworthy players. 5 players! in 10 years! and you’re complaining about mcleod, that’s the hilarious part to me.



martin, parise, zajac, and henrique is “much better” than hughes, nico, bratt, smith, holtz, mercer, foote, bahl, etc?

and of course, the kicker in all of this is that if lou/conte had drafted better, shero’s clubs would have had that winning thing you’re so fond of.

If Lou/conte had done their jobs better, Ray Shero's name would never even be associated with the NJ Devils.

 

[JimEIV]

now i’m not sure which decade you’re referring to. my decade produced 5 noteworthy players. 5 players! in 10 years! and you’re complaining about mcleod, that’s the hilarious part to me.



martin, parise, zajac, and henrique is “much better” than hughes, nico, bratt, smith, holtz, mercer, foote, bahl, etc?

and of course, the kicker in all of this is that if lou/conte had drafted better, shero’s clubs would have had that winning thing you’re so fond of.

We didn't draft Foote or Bahl and we drafted the other part of your list 30 seconds ago and everyone is chocked full of hope for those two...But as for Hughes, Nico, Bratt and Smith...If you think any of those players are remotely close to Parise...We'll just leave it at that.

Be fun to see what year one of Nico, Bratt, Hughes or Smith finish in the top 5 of league scoring and top 5 in Hart and top 10 in Selke votes in the same year. probably next year.

 

[Triumph]

If you're going to post-facto assess any draft pick vis a vis failure, you need to look at the players taken directly after.

Matteau: Pearson, Dansk, Moroz, Collberg, Pokka - Pearson is the only player here who played in the NHL. I don't think the selection of Matteau is that egregious. 2012 was a really weak draft. Had the Devils assessed that correctly, they should've given up that pick.

Quenneville: B. Lemieux, Hawryluk, Barbashev, McDonald, Masin - Lemieux and Barbashev are borderline 3rd line/4th line players, the other three have had no real NHL impact.

Zacha: Provorov, Werenski, Meier, Rantanen, Crouse - Provorov is a 2nd pair D who plays top pair minutes, Werenski is a top pair D, Meier is a borderline 1st line forward, Rantanen is an All-Star, Crouse is a 3rd liner

McLeod: Bean, McAvoy, Kunin, Chychrun, Fabbro - Bean has yet to crack the NHL, McAvoy's a solid 2nd pairing D with room to be more, Kunin is Pavel Zacha's American cousin, Chychrun has top pair potential, Fabbro had a decent showing as a rookie.

This is the most generous account for Zacha vs. McLeod - no one taken after Fabbro in the 1st round has had a significant NHL impact. 2016 was not a particularly strong draft. 2015 is littered with All-Stars - Barzal, Connor, Boeser, Konecny, Chabot, etc.

 

[Azathoth]

We didn't draft Foote or Bahl and we drafted the other part of your list 30 seconds ago and everyone is chocked full of hope for those two...But as for Hughes, Nico, Bratt and Smith...If you think any of those players are remotely close to Parise...We'll just leave it at that.

Be fun to see what year one of Nico, Bratt, Hughes or Smith finish in the top 5 of league scoring and top 5 in Hart and top 10 in Selke votes in the same year. probably next year.

You forgot Norris votes for Smith.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Of course. Drafting Bean over McLeod would have radically changed the trajectory of this franchise, but drafting Werenski or Rantanen over Zacha and things would be exactly the same. Makes sense.

 

[Nubmer6]

I don't understand this chart.

It's the pattern I'm going to use to lay out the tile in my bathroom

 

[MartyOwns]

It's the pattern I'm going to use to lay out the tile in my bathroom

that’s a fitting room for it considering all the shit we drafted

 

[JimEIV]

Of course. Drafting Bean over McLeod would have radically changed the trajectory of this franchise, but drafting Werenski or Rantanen over Zacha and things would be exactly the same. Makes sense.

Not at all.

 

[Buggsy]

A thread about the quality of our current prospects under a new GM has devolved into a comparison of older prospects drafted by the last GM vs even older prospects drafted by the GM before that.

Seriously Jim, you're a fine poster but you tend to make threads absolutely unbearable. The past 5 pages of conversation have nothing to do with our current prospects. Its' filled with conversations that have absolutely no bearing anymore.

Move on and stop devaluing the actual thread. If you believe that the value of a good prospect pool does not mean anything until AHL/NHL success, just don't enter a thread discussing it.

 

[Darkauron]

The past 5 pages of conversation have nothing to do with our current prospects. Its' filled with conversations that have absolutely no bearing anymore.

Move on and stop devaluing the actual thread. If you believe that the value of a good prospect pool does not mean anything until AHL/NHL success, just don't enter a thread discussing it.

 

[Better Call Sal]

The long and the short of this entire discussion is that it's possible for there to be a middle ground.

Lou gave us nearly unparalleled success for a franchise in this league. Anyone discrediting that is ignorant.

He and his scouting staff also drafted poorly for a prolonged period of time, so much so that we were left with virtually no assets or resources when he left his position here and Shero took over.

It is possible to acknowledge both of these things without sullying the man's legacy. I'm fairly certain that almost everyone involved in this discussion understands this and, therefore, I'm just wasting my time reiterating it. But it seems it bears repeating.

 

[Buggsy]

The long and the short of this entire discussion is that it's possible for there to be a middle ground.

Lou gave us nearly unparalleled success for a franchise in this league. Anyone discrediting that is ignorant.

He and his scouting staff also drafted poorly for a prolonged period of time, so much so that we were left with virtually no assets or resources when he left his position here and Shero took over.

It is possible to acknowledge both of these things without sullying the man's legacy. I'm fairly certain that almost everyone involved in this discussion understands this and, therefore, I'm just wasting my time reiterating it. But it seems it bears repeating.

I actually agree with Jim that the Shero tenure was a disaster and has caused us to restart but it has nothing to do with this thread. It's been discussed ad nauseum.

We only get so many threads allowed in this forum, this conversation doesn't need to be in all of them.

 

[JimEIV]

If you're going to post-facto assess any draft pick vis a vis failure, you need to look at the players taken directly after.

Matteau: Pearson, Dansk, Moroz, Collberg, Pokka - Pearson is the only player here who played in the NHL. I don't think the selection of Matteau is that egregious. 2012 was a really weak draft. Had the Devils assessed that correctly, they should've given up that pick.

Quenneville: B. Lemieux, Hawryluk, Barbashev, McDonald, Masin - Lemieux and Barbashev are borderline 3rd line/4th line players, the other three have had no real NHL impact.

Zacha: Provorov, Werenski, Meier, Rantanen, Crouse - Provorov is a 2nd pair D who plays top pair minutes, Werenski is a top pair D, Meier is a borderline 1st line forward, Rantanen is an All-Star, Crouse is a 3rd liner

McLeod: Bean, McAvoy, Kunin, Chychrun, Fabbro - Bean has yet to crack the NHL, McAvoy's a solid 2nd pairing D with room to be more, Kunin is Pavel Zacha's American cousin, Chychrun has top pair potential, Fabbro had a decent showing as a rookie.

This is the most generous account for Zacha vs. McLeod - no one taken after Fabbro in the 1st round has had a significant NHL impact. 2016 was not a particularly strong draft. 2015 is littered with All-Stars - Barzal, Connor, Boeser, Konecny, Chabot, etc.

One last post and leave it alone....

I think you have much, much, much more to worry about with:

#11 who is a complete bust
#1 overall 3 years in averaging 52 points and
#1 overall who just completed his rookie year with 21 points.

Than a #6 who is a disappointment that is averaging 25 points playing 3rd line minutes regardless of what was available in his particular draft.

Edit: You take all that together and that is precisely we are where we are.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Even if you take our worst draft misses over the last 5 years and magically switch them to the best possible pick, we still aren’t winning shit. That’s how talentless and garbage the shape of the franchise was in. You think McAvoy looks like a stud playing with Andy Greene or Mirco Mueller or some other pile of garbage we had? I’m sure Jakob Chychrun would lead us to the playoffs.

Draft misses happen — they’re just really bad when you have absolutely zero on your team and desperately need some semblance of talent.