Prospect Info: Devils Prospect Rankings By Position

[JimEIV]

if your point is that a teams’ fans will typically be overly optimistic about their prospects, then fine. that doesn’t change the fact that our prospect pool today is a million times better than it was 10 years ago, even after factoring in that optimism.

Back to full circle...based on what? Cause you say so?

10 years ago many here believed we had not just a good pool, but a very good pool...People were gaga over Bergfors, Josefson and Tedenby....Absolutely over the moon. And our defensive prospects looked even better...We were also a 48 win 103 point team in 2010 and had won 51 games the previous year... You now have the benefit of hindsight...But I can remember it like yesterday saying Bergfors wasn't very good and catching the hate here 10+ years ago while he was in Lowell...I can also remeber the same for Tedenby very early on.

 

[JimEIV]

You have followed prospects for 2 decades and this is your conclusion - this happens in literally every draft, all the time. Just imagine what'll happen to your brain when you get to the 162nd pick that year.

More like 4 decades to varying levels of intentness

 

[MartyOwns]

Back to full circle...based on what? Cause you say so?

10 years ago we many here believed we had not just a good pool, but a very good pool...People were gaga over Bergfors, Josefson and Tedenby....Absolutely over the moon. And our defensive prospects looked even better...We were also a 48 win 103 point team in 2010 and had won 51 games the previous year... You now have the benefit of hindsight...But I can remember it like yesterday saying Bergfors wasn't very good and catching the hate here 10+ years ago while he was in Lowell...

jim i’m going to spend all weekend working on time travel so i can show you how our prospects turned out in 2022. but if i can’t get the flux capacitor to function correctly, perhaps we can use objective prospect grading to gauge the current status of our prospect pool. would you like me to find that for you? we discussed the Athletic organizational rankings a few weeks back so we can start there if you’d like.

 

[Triumph]

Back to full circle...based on what? Cause you say so?

10 years ago we many here believed we had not just a good pool, but a very good pool...People were gaga over Bergfors, Josefson and Tedenby....Absolutely over the moon. And our defensive prospects looked even better...We were also a 48 win 103 point team in 2010 and had won 51 games the previous year... You now have the benefit of hindsight...But I can remember it like yesterday saying Bergfors wasn't very good and catching the hate here 10+ years ago while he was in Lowell...I can also remeber the same for Tedenby very early on.

You were gaga over the prospects in 2014. Please don't exempt yourself from the list of people who are excited about prospects incorrectly because you are patient zero in that regard.

People come here because they want to be excited about prospects. It's not about what some random Devils fan thinks. It's about what players' results in other leagues say about their NHL potential, and things are looking quite good in that regard right now.

I would also hope that since most of the people here have been posting for a decade that they've learned a thing or two in the meantime - I certainly have.

 

[JimEIV]

jim i’m going to spend all weekend working on time travel so i can show you how our prospects turned out in 2022. but if i can’t get the flux capacitor to function correctly, perhaps we can use objective prospect grading to gauge the current status of our prospect pool. would you like me to find that for you? we discussed the Athletic organizational rankings a few weeks back so we can start there if you’d like.

Who wrote the article for Athletic or who was Devils representative? Pronman? Whoever wrote it, go back to 2016 and see what they wrote about McLeod....See how wrong it was...See how terribly inaccurate and optimistic it was ....Organizational rankings from professional writers are worthless. Some teams and players garner accolades while other don't...see with your own eyes...

Cause anyone who thinks Smith is a fabulous skater is absolutely clueless....Someone should save this point so we can revisit it after we all see more.

 

[JimEIV]

You were gaga over the prospects in 2014. Please don't exempt yourself from the list of people who are excited about prospects incorrectly because you are patient zero in that regard.

People come here because they want to be excited about prospects. It's not about what some random Devils fan thinks. It's about what players' results in other leagues say about their NHL potential, and things are looking quite good in that regard right now.

I would also hope that since most of the people here have been posting for a decade that they've learned a thing or two in the meantime - I certainly have.

I wasn't gaga....If you remember I thought it was nonsense that claims of "worst prospect pool in the league" were being made...It really dovetails into this conversation quite well...It produced players just like I said it would. I still don't believe that was the "worst prospect pool in the league" - Coleman alone shows that.

 

[Wierzbowski426]

I don't believe in ignore lists and have never used them before. I am about to make an exception. Good lord the last few pages of this thread are making me want to gouge my eyeballs out with a rusty butter knife.

I am excited for our future and think we have some top notch prospects and insane depth. Enough with this non productive bitching and moaning. It's such a waste of time.

 

[MartyOwns]

Who wrote the article for Athletic or who was Devils representative? Pronman? Whoever wrote it, go back to 2016 and see what they wrote about McLeod....See how wrong it was...See how terribly inaccurate and optimistic it was ....Organizational rankings from professional writers are worthless. Some teams and players garner accolades while other don't...see with your own eyes...

Cause anyone who thinks Smith is a fabulous skater is absolutely clueless....Someone should save this point so we can revisit it after we all see more.

i’m glad i asked, i don’t want to waste my time finding rankings if you’re going to dismiss them. so, time travel- out. objective scouting reports- out. how then should we evaluate our prospects? or are you saying it’s impossible?

 

[JimEIV]

i’m glad i asked, i don’t want to waste my time finding rankings if you’re going to dismiss them. so, time travel- out. objective scouting reports- out. how then should we evaluate our prospects? or are you saying it’s impossible?

Watch them. What most write is often wrong or only true in the narrowest of scope within their junior leagues. Sort of like the tallest midget scenario.

EDIT: And if you couldn't see McLeod played like a chicken with his head cut off and had little hockey sense in 2016 from just a few viewings...Maybe player evaluation isn't your game?

 

[My3Sons]

can you evaluate mccarthy against santini? i only ask because i had such high hopes for that guy, and i don’t want to be disappointed again. i haven’t seen a ton of mccarthy video, but it seems like he is able to skate the puck out of his own end better than santini, so i’m encouraged by that at least.



i remember meeting mckay at a signing way back in the early 2000’s, at a sports authority or something. i was practicing what i would say to him the whole time i was waiting in line, then when i got up there he was talking to a pair of tits with blonde hair, and he signed my stuff without looking at me. in retrospect, can’t say i blame him.

So I used to take my kids to signings for football in our area. One player was sitting there with his wife. When it was our turn I had my son who was about 11 at the time take his mini-helmet and walk over to the wife and hand her the sharpie and helmet and say to the wife “Mr. ______ you are shorter than you look on tv.” What was even more ridiculous the player was African American and the wife what white and blonde. For a moment the athlete looked at my son with a puzzled look on his face. Then both the athlete and his wife got the joke and cracked up. They took an extra minute with my son and he loved it. I will root for any pro athlete that is kind to kids.

 

[MartyOwns]

Watch them. What most write is often wrong or only true in the narrowest of scope within their junior leagues. Sort of like the tallest midget scenario.

the people that are watching them (more than you or i could) are the ones writing objective reports and ranking them. i’d like to think i’m semi-intelligent, but me watching youtube clips cannot possibly be worth more than people that have made a living writing their opinion. it’s why i value the opinions of @StevenToddIves and @thethinglonger so much

 

[JimEIV]

the people that are watching them (more than you or i could) are the ones writing objective reports and ranking them. i’d like to think i’m semi-intelligent, but me watching youtube clips cannot possibly be worth more than people that have made a living writing their opinion. it’s why i value the opinions of @StevenToddIves and @thethinglonger so much

I appreciate them as well...There have been a lot of good posters here over the years. One of the most accurate posters I have seen at evaluating players here has been @Jason MacIsaac

I can remember discussions here from when Zajac was in North Dakota and even before that, some posters here during that time were really good at identifying strong and weak attributes that would or wouldn't translate. I remember a lot of Parise at North Dakota post from this site around then too...So let me just say Anyone that would compare Parise to Mike York shouldn't be doing player evaluations And anyone that was here during that time probably remembers that.

 

[StevenToddIves]

can you evaluate mccarthy against santini? i only ask because i had such high hopes for that guy, and i don’t want to be disappointed again. i haven’t seen a ton of mccarthy video, but it seems like he is able to skate the puck out of his own end better than santini, so i’m encouraged by that at least.



i remember meeting mckay at a signing way back in the early 2000’s, at a sports authority or something. i was practicing what i would say to him the whole time i was waiting in line, then when i got up there he was talking to a pair of tits with blonde hair, and he signed my stuff without looking at me. in retrospect, can’t say i blame him.

I'd say that right now I would consider Santini as McCarthy's talent floor. To be honest, I'm not sure if we'll ever know what happened with Santini. I would say he actually regressed between 2016-19 when he was at an age when most young players are taking huge vaults forward in their development.

As high as I was on Santini in his draft year of 2013 -- I had him ranked in the late 30s of a pretty good draft class -- I liked McCarthy even more in his draft year of 2019. The reason why? Quite simply, I think McCarthy was a bit more physical and polished defensively at the same age, and a bit better with the puck. In his draft eligible season for the US-NTDP, Santini had 0 goals and 15 assists in 66 games. McCarthy also played his draft eligible season for the US-NTDP, and in 62 games totaled 5 goals and 24 assists. He's a better shooter and a better passer than Santini, in my opinion. I highly doubt McCarthy will ever be known for his offense, but I think it's reasonable to project him as a defense-first, physical blueline force capable of chipping in 15-25 points from your bottom 4.

 

[MartyOwns]

I appreciate them as well...There have been a lot of good posters here over the years. One of the most accurate posters I have seen at evaluating players here has been @Jason MacIsaac

I can remember discussions here from when Zajac was in North Dakota and even before that some posters here during that time were really good at identifying strong and weak attributes of players. I remember a lot of Parise at North Dakota post from this site around then too...So let me just say Anyone that would compare Parise to Mike York shouldn't be doing player evaluations And anyone that was here during that time probably remembers that.

it just seems like anecdotal evidence is much more important to you than the overwhelming consensus of qualified hockey evaluators. if somebody compared parise to mike york, that was clearly wrong? but i would hardly say they should be strung up by their nips and disregarded forever for getting one wrong. all of this is a guessing game- a lot of bright people said yakupov should go 1st overall, and those people were wrong. if you’re wrong every once in a while, that’s fine. but if you’re wrong 95% of the time, you’re david conte.

i know a lot of people are pissed and talked about the Ignore feature, but you helped me waste work time with nonsensical arguments, and for that i thank you. hopefully i was able to return the favor. have a good weekend

 

[StevenToddIves]

Bah. You guys are too main-stream. My all-time favorite is Dougie Brown. Survived in this league on 100% pure heart.

Oooh, I loved Dougie Brown. Him and Mark Johnson were my favorite forwards on those late 80's Devils teams.

 

[JimEIV]

it just seems like anecdotal evidence is much more important to you than the overwhelming consensus of qualified hockey evaluators. if somebody compared parise to mike york, that was clearly wrong? but i would hardly say they should be strung up by their nips and disregarded forever for getting one wrong. all of this is a guessing game- a lot of bright people said yakupov should go 1st overall, and those people were wrong. if you’re wrong every once in a while, that’s fine. but if you’re wrong 95% of the time, you’re david conte.

i know a lot of people are pissed and talked about the Ignore feature, but you helped me waste work time with nonsensical arguments, and for that i thank you. hopefully i was able to return the favor. have a good weekend

Oh I have a very strong disdain for consensus opinion. I find it a lot boring and a bit cowardly...
Cool thing about about Conte, the 5% of the time he was right he got 3 already and one should be Hall of Famers. Not to mention the US Hall of Famers which are probably about 6 or 7 them

Have a good weekend.

 

[StevenToddIves]

Um... guys? Any chance we can stop arguing and start talking about Devils prospects again?

It's kinda why I started this thread...

 

[Blackjack]

Um... guys? Any chance we can stop arguing and start talking about Devils prospects again?

It's kinda why I started this thread...

Which of these guys (that you ranked) do you think could be trade targets for other teams? There are rumors about Vince Dunn being available and obviously Tampa will need to do something with 3 RFAs and only $5 million in cap space. You mentioned that you think Dubas liked Anderson, are there guys outside the highest profile prospects (Holtz/Smith/Mercer/Foote) that you think other teams might covet and be part of a package to land a defenseman?

 

[glenwo2]

8 fewer points in 1 fewer game. Not a significant difference but you don't want @glenwo2 coming after you for getting Bratt's stats wrong

Me :

 

[glenwo2]

Thing about 2016 is we did make one of the best picks in that draft and most likely goes top 30 in any redraft

We just took that player with a 6th rounder instead of a 1st rounder.

The goal of a draft is to get NHL talent out of it. Whether its through players you drafted or assets you aquire with those prospects in trades. Every draft has misses and it doesn't really matter what picks hit as long as they hit. Its just the odds of hitting are greater earlier on.

If we took Bratt in McLeod's spot and he ended up how he did, the 2016 draft wouldn't even be a topic of conversation right now.

Preach.

I have mentioned that before.

The 2016 Draft would've been viewed WAY more favorably if the draft picks were reversed and Bratt(as you said) was in McLeod's spot and McLeod was in Bratt's spot in the draft.

McLeod would've been great value in the 6th round and Bratt would've made a ton of sense in the first.

 

[Guttersniped]

Right. 2014 is a bad draft, and was thought to be so at the time. Still, the Devils did very bad even considering that.

I’m not disagreeing with you other than there’s too much focus on the Devils doing terrible in drafts with no zero depth when they had no early picks. They did badly when it was a lot harder to do well but that’s understandable. What do I think is Conte’s most disastrous draft and my least favorite?

		2009
1	20	Jacob Josefson
2	54	Eric Gelinas
3	73	Alexander Urbom
4	114	Seth Helgeson
5	144	Derek Rodwell
6	174	Ashton Bernard
7	204	Curtis Gedwig

[THEAD] [/THEAD]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

[Note: I actually own a JaJo jersey because I love our boys, just not this draft.]

Why? Because that draft was also fantastic, 55.2% made the NHL. Many teams loaded up and we got crap, that’s why they were good and we were bad.

Anaheim got Palmieri (26) and Vatanen (106). Minny got Nick Leddy (16), Kuemper (161) and Haula (182). Nashville picked Ryan Ellis at 11, then added Craig Smith (98) and Mattias Ekholm (102). NYI got Tavares obviously, and Calvin de Haan (12), Anders Nilsson (62), Casey Cizikas (92) and Anders Lee (152). Colorado Duchene (3), O’Reilly (33) and Berrie (64).

More teams just got NHL players. Washington got Mojo (24), Dr Orlov (55) and Cody Eakin (85). Hell, Buffalo drafted Zack Kassian (13), Brayden McNabb (66) and Marcus Foligno (104) with their first three picks. I looove Sens drafting around this time, Silfverberg (39), Lehner (46) and Hoffman (130) is pretty sweet haul. Even Atlanta found Ben Chaiarot (120) to join Evander Kane at 3rd overall. Nothing quite beats getting out-drafted in the late rounds by the Thrashers. I could go on.

We traded the 23 and 84 pick to get a talented injury report on skates who scored 60 points in 276GP, a hard shot from the point we used to swindle a 3rd round pick from Col and two defensive prospects that were discussed on this board for what felt like 14 years. That’s perhaps understandable in a bad draft but if you can’t even get one roster player even out of this draft we probably deserved our fate.

Several other teams forgot to get on the bags of gold line even if this was a very generous draft. Montreal got zilch, but 2007 went pretty well for them. If teams made it up in other drafts in a big way it’s not an issue, but we obviously didn’t. Vancouver, our sister draft screw-up at the time, also screwed up again. They got high octane bust Jordon Schroeder at 22 and some absolute garbage too in some weird mirror image of sadness. I’m rambling...

My point is at least in 2011 they got Larsson, even if it took a lottery win, but they got him and later Coleman bloomed. 2008 is another legendary draft, less depth at 50.7%, but the talent level is unreal. There’s more than just Carlson taken after Tedenby, but we did get Henrique at 82. They got jack shit in 2009 and compounding that with only getting a one good player a couple great drafts and bombing bad drafts all adds up to not enough talent. (I know, news flash!) Not even getting one functional NHLer out of 2009 is just the nadir to me.

 

[glenwo2]

Maybe I'm miss-remembering the scouting on McLeod, but I thought the skinny on him was he was the best skater in the draft with a sub-par shot and the question was always going to be, will he put up points? I don't think anyone really questioned that. I think the hope was that he could eventually be the 2C to Zacha's 1C, which obviously isn't going to come true for either.

I recall that the #1 thing that was attractive about him is his SPEED (that he was FAST when he skated).

Now I don't know if watching Miles Wood zip up and down the ice spoiled my eyes but in comparison...McLeod looked like he had AVERAGE speed.

He could very well be fast but I did not really see any burst from him.

I only saw just another NHL Player with Normal NHL speed.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

I specifically remember a few posters on here being very unhappy with the McLeod pick.

 

[Lou is God]

I

		2009
1	20	Jacob Josefson
2	54	Eric Gelinas
3	73	Alexander Urbom
4	114	Seth Helgeson
5	144	Derek Rodwell
6	174	Ashton Bernard
7	204	Curtis Gedwig

[THEAD] [/THEAD]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

When we drafted this goon, he had 5 goals in four SEASONS in the Juniors and was out of hockey by the time he was 22, just an comparison to our recent 6th rounders and a reason why Lou and Conte in the end had to go.

 

[Triumph]

I wasn't gaga....If you remember I thought it was nonsense that claims of "worst prospect pool in the league" were being made...It really dovetails into this conversation quite well...It produced players just like I said it would. I still don't believe that was the "worst prospect pool in the league" - Coleman alone shows that.

Let's get this straight, because I found a post from you from Spring 2016 where you were refuting the 'worst prospect pool in the league' narrative. (Here, for fun, is you calling the prospect pool 'fantastic' in 2016). All I did to find this was search Pietila and click around for a minute.

The Devils from that time graduated Zacha, Coleman, Wood, and Blackwood. The ONLY player that makes this not true is Blackwood who might be a starting goalie. If you think teams aren't doing better than graduating those 3 players over that time, you are mistaken and are not following other systems enough - absolutely anyone who hit on a 2015 1st rounder is doing better. But you've shown your colors here - you're just a contrarian. The Devils' prospect base sucked in 2016 and you're calling it good and now in 2020 when it's good you're calling it bad.