Post-Game Talk: Devils defeat the Flyers 4-3 (Baejac!!)

[devilsblood]

If it was just one game it wouldn't be a problem...but it was the entire last season and large swaths of this season...in fact he has been held pointless in 13 of his last 17 contests and only has 5 points in his last 17 games. It goes beyond though really...the trend line has been going down since his hot start at the beginning of the season. The last 25 or so games has been similar production to last season which was really bad to say the least. I mean if you're ok with this player showing up on the score sheet 4 times in 17 contests you either have a lot more patience than I do or maybe just a lower standard?

You can hang your hat on abstract stats if it makes feel better but Jack is simply not producing well enough...and even if you don't, I find that extremely troubling.

For some perspective, at the age of 19 Patrick Elias was putting up 10 points in 35 games in the Czech league.

 

[tr83]

If it was just one game it wouldn't be a problem...but it was the entire last season and large swaths of this season...in fact he has been held pointless in 13 of his last 17 contests and only has 5 points in his last 17 games. It goes beyond though really...the trend line has been going down since his hot start at the beginning of the season. The last 25 or so games has been similar production to last season which was really bad to say the least. I mean if you're ok with this player showing up on the score sheet 4 times in 17 contests you either have a lot more patience than I do or maybe just a lower standard?

You can hang your hat on abstract stats if it makes feel better but Jack is simply not producing well enough...and even if you don't, I find that extremely troubling.

He's f***ing 19 and has barely played a full season's worth of games after playing in a league full of children.

They all can't be Austin Matthews

 

[JimEIV]

For some perspective, at the age of 19 Patrick Elias was putting up 10 points in 35 games in the Czech league.

And for a little more perspective Petr Sykora had 18 goals 42 points in 63 games as a 19 year old on a nonplayoff team.

That's a better rate of production on defense first nonplayoff trap team in the dead puck era...than either of our #1's have produced in the last two years

 

[Call Me Al]

when is everyone else going to realize that he’s never going to concede that we shouldn’t worry about hughes, regardless of any advanced stats or context because he’s not producing points right now as a 19 year old on a bad team?

it’s the same thing every day

 

[devilsblood]

And for a little more perspective Petr Sykora had 18 goals 42 points in 63 games as a 19 year old on a nonplayoff team.

That's a better rate of production on defense first nonplayoff trap team...than either of our #1's have produced in the last two years

Given Elias had a significantly better pro career I think the combined perspective leads to the conclusion that every player develops differently.

 

[devilsblood]

when is everyone else going to realize that he’s never going to concede that we shouldn’t worry about hughes, regardless of any advanced stats or context because he’s not producing points right now as a 19 year old on a bad team?

it’s the same thing every day

When? Well I think my point above pertains to this question as well. We all develop at our own pace.

 

[AfroThunder396]

The Good:
Smith
Zajac
Kuokkanen
Sharangovich
Maltsev
McLeod
Severson

The Bad:
The 3rd period
The refs

The Ugly:
Jakub Voracek's face

 

[hidek91]

when is everyone else going to realize that he’s never going to concede that we shouldn’t worry about hughes, regardless of any advanced stats or context because he’s not producing points right now as a 19 year old on a bad team?

it’s the same thing every day

1st overall picks virtually always join bad teams though and usually turn them into better teams.

I'm not saying that Jim is 100% right but to say that his point production isn't disappointing is a textbook case of wearing pink glasses when analyzing our own prospects.

And FWIW, I think that the truth lies in the middle, Hughes is on the one hand a victim of a various factors that are not up to him (Palmieri's and Bratt's SH%, playing with Johnsson, no camp, COVID etc.) but on the other hand, he's not playing on a level that you'd expect from 1st overall pick in his D+2 season. For example, he has only 4 power play points this year and can you genuinely say that Hughes creates a lot on PP and it's just teammates whiffing on those golden chances that he creates? I'm not seeing that, his poor performance on PP is actually one of many reasons why our PP is so inefficient.

 

[Call Me Al]

i’m really just commenting on this conversation and not at all about hughes.

jim says hughes is a disappointment > many posters point to possession stats, team context, age, size, comparisons, etc. to make their point > jim says hughes is a disappointment because he’s not producing points > rinse cycle repeat

 

[Buggsy]

Hughes has been a disappointment when it comes to point production, there's no two ways about it.

The continued defence of he is only 19, he made the biggest jump for a first overall and such are very tired excuses for a first overall.

Do I think that Hughes is going to live up to his draft position? Yes
Do I think that Hughes has disappointed in his first 2 seasons and needs to be better? Yes

They aren't mutually exclusive, so we should stop posting like they are.

Also great to get a win against Philly. LGD

 

[My3Sons]

1st overall picks virtually always join bad teams though and usually turn them into better teams.

I'm not saying that Jim is 100% right but to say that his point production isn't disappointing is a textbook case of wearing pink glasses when analyzing our own prospects.

And FWIW, I think that the truth lies in the middle, Hughes is on the one hand a victim of a various factors that are not up to him (Palmieri's and Bratt's SH%, playing with Johnsson, no camp, COVID etc.) but on the other hand, he's not playing on a level that you'd expect from 1st overall pick in his D+2 season. For example, he has only 4 power play points this year and can you genuinely say that Hughes creates a lot on PP and it's just teammates whiffing on those golden chances that he creates? I'm not seeing that, his poor performance on PP is actually one of many reasons why our PP is so inefficient.

I think the disconnect occurs when trying to extrapolate the future from the present. Of course it is disappointing that Hughes isn’t scoring more points overall. That said I think a number of folks suggest that because of any number of factors from coronavirus to poor showings by teammates and advanced stats and even the eye test that Hughes still has a bright future. You can be disappointed but still see a great player down the road in Hughes if you choose to. Some can’t get past their disappointment and some can’t get past their evaluation of his talent. I will say that I don’t think anyone critical of Hughes on this section of the boards has actually come out and said he’s not going to be a great player eventually. Instead things are stated as “concerning” or some other vague standard that just focuses on the today while leaving them an out since they probably expect a breakout eventually.

Edit - I see a few of us had the same thoughts.

 

[Emperoreddy]

This isn't a discussion anymore. One person is saying he is a disappointment.

The other is listing reasons why his numbers are the way they are and that is being dismissed as "excuses" and there is zero budging from anyone then the conversation is becoming spam.

So either find some middle ground or talk about something else.

 

[devilsblood]

1st overall picks virtually always join bad teams though and usually turn them into better teams.

I'm not saying that Jim is 100% right but to say that his point production isn't disappointing is a textbook case of wearing pink glasses when analyzing our own prospects.

And FWIW, I think that the truth lies in the middle, Hughes is on the one hand a victim of a various factors that are not up to him (Palmieri's and Bratt's SH%, playing with Johnsson, no camp, COVID etc.) but on the other hand, he's not playing on a level that you'd expect from 1st overall pick in his D+2 season. For example, he has only 4 power play points this year and can you genuinely say that Hughes creates a lot on PP and it's just teammates whiffing on those golden chances that he creates? I'm not seeing that, his poor performance on PP is actually one of many reasons why our PP is so inefficient.

What are your thoughts regarding Hughes on the PP?

I think he looks OK, looks comfortable, generally handles the puck well. Zone entries are always a strength, though conversely him taking the opening faceoff is currently poor pp mgmt. So again I think he has been OK, but I would agree he's not generating high level opportunities. Why? Well I think he is better on the move. I also think that right now given his diminutive stature, he still is lacking in some goal scoring traits.

Now should we implement more puck handler movement into the pp system, have Jack skate with the puck from station to station as opposed passing to do so? It would certainly be against trend, and would likely not lead to more consistent in zone possession time, and I think that is goal #1 for this teams pp at the moment, but at some point? I wouldn't be against it. Any player on the half board actually, instead of looking solely for the cross ice pass, if you have space, use it, get the defense moving and look for the pass off of that.

Anyways, that's just some morning time hockey philosophizing as I drink my coffee.

 

[Better Call Sal]

I can’t stop gushing over Sharangovich and Kuokkanen. Filling in those spots in a lineup is sometimes a more difficult thing than getting the top flight players going.

I personally have no fear of Nico and Jack not being consistent players as they continue to grow and mature. So finding depth pieces that can hopefully be staples going forward is huge. The way that they both play night in and night out gives me confidence that they can be invaluable for us. I love how they both play.

 

[devilsblood]

i’m really just commenting on this conversation and not at all about hughes.

jim says hughes is a disappointment > many posters point to possession stats, team context, age, size, comparisons, etc. to make their point > jim says hughes is a disappointment because he’s not producing points > rinse cycle repeat

Welcome to the internet.

 

[devilsblood]

I can’t stop gushing over Sharangovich and Kuokkanen. Filling in those spots in a lineup is sometimes a more difficult thing than getting the top flight players going.

I personally have no fear of Nico and Jack not being consistent players as they continue to grow and mature. So finding depth pieces that can hopefully be staples going forward is huge. The way that they both play night in and night out gives me confidence that they can be invaluable for us. I love how they both play.

I know you are pointing out the rookies here, but let's not forget Zajac in this mix.

That line continues to matchup against opposing top lines, last night 9+ minutes vs Couturier's line, and just continues to keep those lines in check(6v5 goal aside) while they themselves put points on the board.

Top 3 fwd's in terms of 5v5 on ice goals for per 60? Kouk, Shara, Zajac.

Shara's goals against lag a bit, but Kouk and Zajac are right there at the top(along with limited minutes Boqvist) in this category as well. Ipso facto they are the top in gf% too.

If you go back to when Zajac was separated from Hall, at which point Zajac was thought to be on severe downward decline, he has, on multiple occasions proven that if you put him with the right wingers, in which he can play a style that fits his current skill set, he can be an under the radar high level 5v5 player. We saw it with Coleman and Wood a couple years back and now with Shara and Kouk.

 

[lucifer91]

when is everyone else going to realize that he’s never going to concede that we shouldn’t worry about hughes, regardless of any advanced stats or context because he’s not producing points right now as a 19 year old on a bad team?

it’s the same thing every day

Not only that, but there is nothing we can do about it.

 

[The Wumpus]

Sort of like Esa Tikkanen way back

Tikkanen actually suited up for us. Crawford is more like Trent Hunter, the Devil that never was.

 

[hidek91]

What are your thoughts regarding Hughes on the PP?

I think he looks OK, looks comfortable, generally handles the puck well. Zone entries are always a strength, though conversely him taking the opening faceoff is currently poor pp mgmt. So again I think he has been OK, but I would agree he's not generating high level opportunities. Why? Well I think he is better on the move. I also think that right now given his diminutive stature, he still is lacking in some goal scoring traits.

I agree with you completely, it's obvious that his game fits dynamic situations better rather than static PP. I think that he's good in terms of zone entry, however same could be said about other young, fast and elusive players we have (e. g. Bratt and Smith) so that's not an unique thing in our lineup but nevertheless good to have.

The problems start when we set up in the offensive zone and here whenever puck is on Hughes' stick he is playing it, in my opinion, too slowly and safely, which usually takes away the cross-crease one timer and forces him to pass the puck back to the point. Also, as you mentioned, he lacks a dangerous shot, which could force the PK to overcommit to him potentially leaving open the backdoor pass to the net front player or cross crease one timer. And finally, I don't think there's enough of crashing the net and too much perimeter play but this problem applies to almost all PP players, they're trying to be "too finesse" but sometimes you have to crash the net (I think Flyers first goal was a perfect example of that).

Now should we implement more puck handler movement into the pp system, have Jack skate with the puck from station to station as opposed passing to do so? It would certainly be against trend, and would likely not lead to more consistent in zone possession time, and I think that is goal #1 for this teams pp at the moment, but at some point? I wouldn't be against it. Any player on the half board actually, instead of looking solely for the cross ice pass, if you have space, use it, get the defense moving and look for the pass off of that.

Anyways, that's just some morning time hockey philosophizing as I drink my coffee.

I think that the problem is that while Hughes is skating with the puck, it ofc creates the necessity for opponents to adjust but also for his teammates and I think this hasn't been working so far. To me, it looks like most players don't understand what he's trying to do, it seems to work with Bratt and Smith but those guys IMO have high hockey IQ.

 

[Derps]

Do you have any reaction to this game aside from....that?

not really tbh. The wins and losses are pretty incidental. I don’t get up and down the way a lot of people here do after each game.The kids are playing well for the most part and we’re seeing most of what we wanna see for long term success. The rest is gravy.

 

[devilsblood]

not really tbh. The wins and losses are pretty incidental. I don’t get up and down the way a lot of people here do after each game.The kids are playing well for the most part and we’re seeing most of what we wanna see for long term success. The rest is gravy.

I agree with your general idea, but I do think the team learning to win games is important.

 

[The Great Dame]

As far as the Jack conversation goes there’s validity to both sides.

I can definitely appreciate the, he’s young and still developing approach because not only has he shown flashes of brilliance and why he was the consensus #1 pick, but also because of his diminutive stature and how those guys can often take longer to develop. He’s only 19 and a guy like him might not even hit his prime until he’s 23-25.

That being said I’d be lying if I wasn’t at least a little concerned about his performance. Despite showing these flashes of brilliance he’s also shown flashes of being soft on puck battles, being turnover-prone and being soft in the D-zone. So I think his consistency level definitely needs to improve. And if you’re not at least a little disappointed by his D+1 season then you’ve got your head in the sand. As far as #1 overall picks go he’s had (so far) the second worst D+1 season by a first overall forward in the last 20 years, the only one worse being Yakupov. So of course that should be a little disappointing given the potential of having a first overall pick, and it’s not being overtly pessimistic to say so. And again he’s obviously shown that he’s going to be a significant contributor at this level at some point, but it still remains to be seen if he’s truly a franchise, #1 center capable of putting up 70+ points in his prime (which I think we can all reasonably say is what we had hoped for pre-draft based on analysts and based on centers taken #1 overall in prior years).

 

[devilsblood]

As far as the Jack conversation goes there’s validity to both sides.

I can definitely appreciate the, he’s young and still developing approach because not only has he shown flashes of brilliance and why he was the consensus #1 pick, but also because of his diminutive stature and how those guys can often take longer to develop. He’s only 19 and a guy like him might not even hit his prime until he’s 23-25.

That being said I’d be lying if I wasn’t at least a little concerned about his performance. Despite showing these flashes of brilliance he’s also shown flashes of being soft on puck battles, being turnover-prone and being soft in the D-zone. So I think his consistency level definitely needs to improve. And if you’re not at least a little disappointed by his D+1 season then you’ve got your head in the sand. As far as #1 overall picks go he’s had (so far) the second worst D+1 season by a first overall forward in the last 20 years, the only one worse being Yakupov. So of course that should be a little disappointing given the potential of having a first overall pick, and it’s not being overtly pessimistic to say so. And again he’s obviously shown that he’s going to be a significant contributor at this level at some point, but it still remains to be seen if he’s truly a franchise, #1 center capable of putting up 70+ points in his prime (which I think we can all reasonably say is what we had hoped for pre-draft based on analysts and based on centers taken #1 overall in prior years).

Soft on puck battles? Maybe the understatement on the century. And yeah I'm using some hyperbole there, but I think the puck battles are when we are most seeing that he is still a kid with lots of development ahead of him. This is the underlying factor to as to why he is currently not a good in zone defensive player.

I think the fact that he can play at the level he has despite being so outmatched physically is actually pretty encouraging.

Another encouraging point is I think his play shows he acknowledges the importance of playing defense, that in order for him to do his thing offensively he first needs to have possession of the puck. We see it most in his willingness to back check, and we have seen numerous examples of this. He may not be a good in zone defender currently but he has found ways to play defense without setting up in zone with his back to his own goalie.

 

[NJDevs26]

Tikkanen actually suited up for us. Crawford is more like Trent Hunter, the Devil that never was.

At least Hunter got to tour the facility lol

 

[JK3]

Really liking Sharangovich, kid is a shooter, never hesitates to fire it and quickly, great release.

It would be amazing if he can keep it up and it would go a long way to helping this team with a bit of unexpected scoring pop.

Thank you, bye bye.