Post-Game Talk: Devils and caps 7:00

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Team kinda stinks right now. I thought Kuznetsov and Carlson were absolutely awful tonight.

 

[troyerlaw]

Team kinda stinks right now. I thought Kuznetsov and Carlson were absolutely awful tonight.

What did trotz say afterward? I can't find it on team site

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

BB was also fired in-season.

I think we can say the Hunter playoff run was a success vs all the other playoff fails

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

What did trotz say afterward? I can't find it on team site

All I see is that he was super pissed with Kuznetov's pizza and that he thought the top two lines sucked so he moved guys around.

Changes are a'comin'.

 

[twabby]

I'd consider dropping Kuznetsov to 3C at this point:

90-19-65
8-20-77
13-92-14
26-83-10


I'd also consider offering Carlson in a trade soon unless his play changes. He probably still has tons of value around the league and could return a better top 4 D if they added a sweetener.

Edit: in the meantime make 9-2 the first pairing, 44-88 the second pairing (how long do they need to crush the easy minutes before earning harder minutes?), and 27-74 the third pairing (how long do they need to stink in harder minutes before earning easier minutes?)

 

[troyerlaw]

Just watched the trotz presser. He didnt seem super pissed, apart from the Kuz giveaway. He seemed to take more of the approach, 'hey, we were all over them most of the night and outshot them by a mile. Most nights you'll win that game.'

The player interviews were interesting to me. Beags and winnick very humble and straightforward and patient with even stupid questions. Williams a little snippier and more testy, but also said, 'we're right where we need to be.' And i dont think he meant it in the sense of, 'we're playing fine.' But more like, 'this is something we need to work through and straighten out, as a group. It's part of the journey.'

Holtby always seems extraordinarily, almost excruciatingly uncomfortable in postgame interviews. As if it's the last place on earth he wants to be. To his credit, he owned up to being outplayed by the other goalie and to sucking in shootouts recently

 

[Capitals40]

I would not trade anyone..if Trotz cant get it done bring in a new GM and coach and let them along with the front office decide on players. Trotz has been given the players to get the job done...he needs to figure out how to score as a team.

 

[twabby]

I would not trade anyone..if Trotz cant get it done bring in a new GM and coach and let them along with the front office decide on players. Trotz has been given the players to get the job done...he needs to figure out how to score as a team.

I'd hesitate trading Kuznetsov for exactly that reason, but John Carlson has never really developed into that true dominant possession #1 defenseman and he's had years and several coaches to do it. Maybe he could fetch someone better as a return. I mentioned Hampus Lindholm before as a potential trade target given certain factors in Anaheim (a surplus of LHD, Fowler's pending contract, any potential animosity leftover from Lindholm's holdout). I have no idea if Murray would entertain a Carlson+ for Lindholm swap but I'd explore situations like that to improve the defense.

 

[Hivemind]

As much as Carlson had underachieved in this regular season, I still think they'd be hard pressed to find a better defenseman at the same (or lower) cap hit via trade. The cheap top pairing defensemen out there simply aren't available.

And there's always the hope he turns it on in the playoffs.

 

[bur and 666 others]

looks like it was a good game to miss. Kuznetsov seems had a night to forget. There is a thread on the main board on him about buttending a new jersey player, ouch. Kuzya, that's dirty.

 

[Brian23]

As much as Carlson had underachieved in this regular season, I still think they'd be hard pressed to find a better defenseman at the same (or lower) cap hit via trade. The cheap top pairing defensemen out there simply aren't available.

And there's always the hope he turns it on in the playoffs.

I mean he has seemed to play his best in the playoffs the last few year, but I'm not sure I'd be okay paying him north of 6 million for hopefully 16 games a season.

 

[bur and 666 others]

btw, what a cool story on Ovechkin and James Franco. Apparently franco was a fan as a kid and now playing for the devils: https://www.instagram.com/p/BOoEjHRAz3l/

 

[HTFN]

Ward wouldn't light people up, but he embodied the "we're going to win every 1-on-1 board battle for our entire shift and keep the puck cycling around the outside until you miss a coverage and we get a scoring chance" style of play. That, to me, is why he was a heavy player. He facilitated a style of play that allowed for the Capitals to gain advantages based on winning physical battles and exhausting their opposition. Chimera could participate in that style of play, but he didn't enable a line to play that style all by himself the same way Ward did.

But isn't that what a possession player does? Consistently win battles and 50/50 pucks, cycle to retain possession (arguably the only way to do so for extended periods of time), and then capitalize on their possession time to create scoring chances? That's durable, even strong, but not exactly heavy.

When I think heavy, I think "we want the puck, ferociously. When we don't have it, we're going to pound you, ferociously, until you cough it up, and then we're going to pound it down your throat and have our way with you in front of the net" I think of guys more inclined to chip pucks towards the point or into traffic. Instead of cycling below the goal line and waiting for chances to capitalize on, and drive hard to the net and use their bodies as much as their hands to create broken chances.

We see two types of cycles in hockey, the kinds used by players who know how to generate offense from them regularly, and the kind used by players who know that it's a good way to keep the zone, but can't really figure out what to do with the puck besides keep the cycle alive and try to get a good bounce, or a point shot.

To me, possession players are often the former, heavy players are usually the latter. A possession player wouldn't likely be recognized as such if they generally had a hard time withstanding the NHL's more physical teams, so I'm inclined to say that your game is not what you can survive in, but what you bring to the table.

Ward may survive just fine in the heavy climate, that doesn't make him a heavy player, only a player who can withstand heavy games. If his departure was responsible for the Capitals deviating from the heavy game, it would only be in the sense that it's less prudent to allow other guys to heat-seek when Joel Ward isn't buying extra time on the boards for hitters to regain their positions.

 

[Hivemind]

But isn't that what a possession player does? Consistently win battles and 50/50 pucks, cycle to retain possession (arguably the only way to do so for extended periods of time), and then capitalize on their possession time to create scoring chances? That's durable, even strong, but not exactly heavy.

When I think heavy, I think "we want the puck, ferociously. When we don't have it, we're going to pound you, ferociously, until you cough it up, and then we're going to pound it down your throat and have our way with you in front of the net" I think of guys more inclined to chip pucks towards the point or into traffic. Instead of cycling below the goal line and waiting for chances to capitalize on, and drive hard to the net and use their bodies as much as their hands to create broken chances.

We see two types of cycles in hockey, the kinds used by players who know how to generate offense from them regularly, and the kind used by players who know that it's a good way to keep the zone, but can't really figure out what to do with the puck besides keep the cycle alive and try to get a good bounce, or a point shot.

To me, possession players are often the former, heavy players are usually the latter. A possession player wouldn't likely be recognized as such if they generally had a hard time withstanding the NHL's more physical teams, so I'm inclined to say that your game is not what you can survive in, but what you bring to the table.

Ward may survive just fine in the heavy climate, that doesn't make him a heavy player, only a player who can withstand heavy games. If his departure was responsible for the Capitals deviating from the heavy game, it would only be in the sense that it's less prudent to allow other guys to heat-seek when Joel Ward isn't buying extra time on the boards for hitters to regain their positions.

Possession cyclers will cycle in the open ice. See the Sedins, or Kuznestov (when playing well). They use their body to shield the puck, but are generally looking to find open space as much as possible. Taking the play into the corners and along the half-wall tends to be a last resort.

Heavy teams will cycle along the boards. They love to dump the puck into the corners, and will sometimes bring the play there even when they have possession. They gain success by physically wearing you down along the boards. They outwork you along the dashers to maintain possession, rather than using playmaking and creativity to get the puck into open space for a teammate. When successful, the rotations will eventually lead to a scoring chance, but that's often the result of a blown coverage as the forwards rotate down low.

We're not awfully far apart in our definitions. But I view Joel Ward as a heavy player because he was a player that predominantly used his body and strength to create possession along the edges, rather than using playmaking or innate hockey sense. He also certainly wasn't afraid to play a dump-and-chase game. Removing Ward, Brouwer, and Fehr and replacing them with players who liked to cycle more in the open ice was a dramatic shift away from playing a physical, grinding brand of hockey. Ward was the most essential element of those three, by far.

 

[Holtbyisms]

So I'll just say that Kinkaid was insane good tonight, no excuse for a loss but he played beyond expectations. We hit the net hard and had plenty of dirty goal chances but they just didn't happen with the exception of Winniks goal. Was a rough night all around but we outplayed them and lost the game in a bettman special. **** happens. GO CAPS

 

[HTFN]

Possession cyclers will cycle in the open ice. See the Sedins, or Kuznestov (when playing well). They use their body to shield the puck, but are generally looking to find open space as much as possible. Taking the play into the corners and along the half-wall tends to be a last resort.

Heavy teams will cycle along the boards. They love to dump the puck into the corners, and will sometimes bring the play there even when they have possession. They gain success by physically wearing you down along the boards. They outwork you along the dashers to maintain possession, rather than using playmaking and creativity to get the puck into open space for a teammate. When successful, the rotations will eventually lead to a scoring chance, but that's often the result of a blown coverage as the forwards rotate down low.

We're not awfully far apart in our definitions. But I view Joel Ward as a heavy player because he was a player that predominantly used his body and strength to create possession along the edges, rather than using playmaking or innate hockey sense. He also certainly wasn't afraid to play a dump-and-chase game. Removing Ward, Brouwer, and Fehr and replacing them with players who liked to cycle more in the open ice was a dramatic shift away from playing a physical, grinding brand of hockey. Ward was the most essential element of those three, by far.

I think these are definitions I can live with (although I would assert that "heavy" and "grinding" are not entirely the same thing), but I think in cases like this, the best way to accurately define the players themselves might have less to do with their management of the puck (because we've mostly just been describing two sides of the same coin) and more to do with what they're looking for away from it.

In this respect a Ward, while not a heavy hitter or lacking whatsoever in hands and hockey sense, peels behind or in front of the net, but rarely drifts to the far circle or high slot for one-timers. Maintaining the cycle and possession is top priority, and opportunities are more often pounced on than proactively generated.

Meanwhile a Kuznetsov or Oshie will cycle like anyone else on the team, but treat it reluctantly, like a last resort. They spend more zone time seeking soft spots in the defense, and only resume their position in the cycle once those gaps have closed.


But then, that makes me wonder what Williams is, because he's not acting much like a scoring possession-type cycler as we've defined them, and yet that's exactly what his reputation was coming in. In fact, functionally he's very similar to Joel Ward, except likely worse along the boards.

Come to think of it, doesn't Crosby technically play more of a "heavy" game as we've defined it, using Ward as our barometer? He thrives on board and corner work, forcing gaps in coverage, and exploiting quick mistakes. I don't even know that he bothers searching for open ice to cycle in much anymore, it seems, because he's made the boards his bread and butter.

 

[SpinningEdge]

So I'll just say that Kinkaid was insane good tonight, no excuse for a loss but he played beyond expectations. We hit the net hard and had plenty of dirty goal chances but they just didn't happen with the exception of Winniks goal. Was a rough night all around but we outplayed them and lost the game in a bettman special. **** happens. GO CAPS

Holtby has said in past shootouts is just a skills competition/kind of a joke. I agree - but he needs to take it more seriously. Points are huge in the metro.

Since 2011 we don't want to ever say "hot goalie" excuse - but tonight we deff ran into a hot goalie.

All that matter still is playoffs - so we'll see how it all goes

 

[Hivemind]

I think these are definitions I can live with (although I would assert that "heavy" and "grinding" are not entirely the same thing), but I think in cases like this, the best way to accurately define the players themselves might have less to do with their management of the puck (because we've mostly just been describing two sides of the same coin) and more to do with what they're looking for away from it.

In this respect a Ward, while not a heavy hitter or lacking whatsoever in hands and hockey sense, peels behind or in front of the net, but rarely drifts to the far circle or high slot for one-timers. Maintaining the cycle and possession is top priority, and opportunities are more often pounced on than proactively generated.

Meanwhile a Kuznetsov or Oshie will cycle like anyone else on the team, but treat it reluctantly, like a last resort. They spend more zone time seeking soft spots in the defense, and only resume their position in the cycle once those gaps have closed.

I more or less think we're on the same boat here. I think some of the critical features of a "heavy" player would be one that is defined as "tough to play against." I think Ward definitely fits that definition, as he would exhaust the opposition along the walls. I'm not so sure that Oshie would and I certainly know that Kuznetsov does not.

But then, that makes me wonder what Williams is, because he's not acting much like a scoring possession-type cycler as we've defined them, and yet that's exactly what his reputation was coming in. In fact, functionally he's very similar to Joel Ward, except likely worse along the boards.

Last year, Williams definitely functioned as a effective portion of some open-ice cycles. This year his play has dropped off somewhat, presumably due to age and mileage. That being said, we've still seen some flashes of his ability (albeit largely a function of when Kuznetsov is also making plays). He's made his career largely on a good release and knowing how to find soft spots in high traffic areas to finish off plays. When Kuzy is on his game, Williams has commented about knowing "to keep his stick on the ice" to be ready to convert passes into scoring chances. It doesn't seem like he's at the point in his career he can regularly drive cycle play, but he can still be a complimentary portion if his center is playing well enough.

Come to think of it, doesn't Crosby technically play more of a "heavy" game as we've defined it, using Ward as our barometer? He thrives on board and corner work, forcing gaps in coverage, and exploiting quick mistakes. I don't even know that he bothers searching for open ice to cycle in much anymore, it seems, because he's made the boards his bread and butter.

Sidney Crosby is Sidney Crosby. A phenom who defies most labels. He is certainly one of the best players along the walls the league has ever seen, but he's also not really known for wearing out the opposition.

 

[MrGone]

Hard not to get excited about Winnik getting another goal, and the team earning a point against the storied Devils franchise.
Just have to manage the puck a bit better and trust the system...

Sometimes I wish there was a like button.

 

[ovikovy817]

I can't believe at what I just saw. For those kind of games Devils should get MINUS 2 points instead of PLUS 2. Can't believe we lost this one.

O'shie should get a PS for a second straight game (Kinkaid throwing the stick, and in the 3rd against NYI)

For the positive note, I hope right now we will stop the debate about Winnik-Bealge-Wilson line, who should play who should sit. This line 4th line, even if I see them as 3B line, should play together the rest of the year.

 

[ReggietheSavage15]

So my last rant was about the lack of physicality and how this years team is a neutered version of last years, for whatever the reason...anyone want to touch on why they only have 91 goals scored? What's going on with Trotz's "system?"

 

[g00n]

So my last rant was about the lack of physicality and how this years team is a neutered version of last years, for whatever the reason...anyone want to touch on why they only have 91 goals scored? What's going on with Trotz's "system?"

Caps are 24th in the league in hits but if you adjusted for games in hand they'd be right about where they are in most team stats: middle of the pack. And they're only even that high because Ovechkin and Wilson combine for 161 of their 700 total hits.

We're an average, treading water kind of hockey team thus far. We don't kill teams with speed, skill, the Power Play, or anything else. We keep goals-against down and have a good PK. Barry Trotz Hockey.

Unless something happens to flip this switch in the next couple of months then the final year of the window could be another "it is what it is" season.

 

[twabby]

As much as Carlson had underachieved in this regular season, I still think they'd be hard pressed to find a better defenseman at the same (or lower) cap hit via trade. The cheap top pairing defensemen out there simply aren't available.

And there's always the hope he turns it on in the playoffs.

I don't think they should make a desperation trade just to get rid of him (for example the Larsson for Hall deal), but there are several factors that lead him to being an interesting trade candidate:

-Aside from 1C, a top 4 RHD is probably the most coveted position around the league (again, look at the Larsson for Hall deal) so they could get a great roster player in return (including another RHD).

-He's on a very friendly contract right now, so teams that think they can compete this year or next would probably be interested.

-His boxcar stats heavily outpace his possession proxies (he has been a negative relative shot-attempt player pretty much his entire career), mainly due to PP production. This could potentially cause other teams to overvalue him and allow the Capitals to be on the winning end of a trade.

-There is good reason to believe Carlson is going to be a very rich man after 2017-18 when his contract is up. Are the Capitals really comfortable giving Carlson a $7M+ contract for 6+ years given his play?

Again I have no idea who is actually available and if any trades make sense. But if I'm GMBM, I think I'm picking up the phone and testing the waters with Carlson as the main trade piece. Alzner probably wouldn't have as much value as Carlson due to him being a UFA at the end of this season, but for similar reasons as above I'd also dangle him as well depending on what other teams might be looking for.

edit: I think in the end it's probably best to at least play out the rest of this season and postseason and then consider options. But man I am just not thrilled about re-signing Carlson given his play. A lot of it probably has to due with recency bias because he has been just dreadful recently.

 

[ovikovy817]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BOnYxbLhL77/

 

[twabby]

Also someone make a compelling argument to me that Tom Wilson deserves to be in the lineup every night while it's okay that Daniel Winnik sits out for long stretches. Because I sure as hell can't figure that one out.