Devil's Advocate Thread: Smith and Kindl

[Heaton]

And they're not doing the same thing. That's my point.

Think back to the development curve of every single guy on this team, and not a single one of our defenders really hit their stride until maybe their 3rd or 4th season in the NHL. You have to go back to Fischer to get someone who was playing top four routinely within his first couple seasons, but still getting reamed by a lot of fans routinely.

So wait, you're just focusing on Smith? What about Ericsson and Kindl?

 

[Fugu]

So wait, you're just focusing on Smith? What about Ericsson and Kindl?

E or Q?

I was focusing on the grounds people were using to change out 3 roster D after 3-4 games.


I thought Kindl was done two years ago.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Ericsson sucked completely for his first three NHL years.




Yes, but that's where I disagree. It's always more difficult to look good when the team is declining from what was a superlative peak for a very long time, than if we'd had the reverse situation where a team was horrific and then started improving.

Sorry. Ericsson still sucks. Not top line material. Probably average 2nd pair, you can do worse. and probably above average on 3rd pair. But knowing ericsson. he would probably screw it up somehow.

 

[Filppula]

Could we get anything for Smith? Because it's time EVERYONE faced it, he sucks and will never amount to anything. Simply doesn't read the game well enough.

 

[Heaton]

E or Q?

I was focusing on the grounds people were using to change out 3 roster D after 3-4 games.


I thought Kindl was done two years ago.

Ericsson, Smith, Kindl, Quincey - get rid of them all.

 

[aar000n]

Could we get anything for Smith? Because it's time EVERYONE faced it, he sucks and will never amount to anything. Simply doesn't read the game well enough.

Hes young so yes.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Ericsson, Smith, Kindl, Quincey - get rid of them all.

Might be hard to move Ericsson with his hip issues, Smith might possibly have the most trade value of the 4 maybe Quincey as well for a desperate team that could use a top 4 LHD. Kindl has absolutely no value what so ever heard that Holland tried to get rid of him for either a 6th or 7th pick and got no takers his cap could have something to do with that. $2.4M for 2 more years for a 6th Dman at best is kind of expensive but put into the right situation I think Kindl could shine just not in Detroit.

 

[Heaton]

Might be hard to move Ericsson with his hip issues, Smith might possibly have the most trade value of the 4 maybe Quincey as well for a desperate team that could use a top 4 LHD. Kindl has absolutely no value what so ever heard that Holland tried to get rid of him for either a 6th or 7th pick and got no takers his cap could have something to do with that. $2.4M for 2 more years for a 6th Dman at best is kind of expensive but put into the right situation I think Kindl could shine just not in Detroit.

I like how Holland can't give Kindl away, so his solution is to just keep playing him. He's 8 years into his career - he's not shining anywhere.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

I like how Holland can't give Kindl away, so his solution is to just keep playing him. He's 8 years into his career - he's not shining anywhere.

Agree Kindl is what he is, 8 year career and he's looking like a rookie here. Between him and Smith and Ericsson there nothing short of turnover machines it's actually getting pretty embarrassing here. Night in night out and they're just turning the puck over far to many times. With all of the turnovers and penalties is no wonder why we're are dead last in shots on goals. We're playing more in our own zone then in the opponents zone.

 

[Fugu]

Kronwall still makes some turnovers in every game that look like rookie mistakes. He had an impressive one last night, a few feet straight up the middle from our goal.


I get the arguments all of us have made over the past five years about these guys. Personally, I'd just like to see enough games in this year for some type of pattern to start emerging for this team and this coach.

 

[Winger98]

Kronwall still makes some turnovers in every game that look like rookie mistakes. He had an impressive one last night, a few feet straight up the middle from our goal.


I get the arguments all of us have made over the past five years about these guys. Personally, I'd just like to see enough games in this year for some type of pattern to start emerging for this team and this coach.

Figure it'll be about 20 games before the Wings do anything. That always seemed to the number they mentioned in the past, and I doubt it's changed.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Many on this board have for a long time been calling for the removal of:

Quincey and/or Smith and/or Kindl

To make room for:

XO and/or Marchenko and/or Jensen


As much as some poster's here dislike Q, S and/or Kindl.

I feel these 3 players are infact BETTER than any of XO, Marchenko and Jensen.

It is very possible that the Ceiling for these 3 young kids is at best equal to the current Smith or Kindl.

The only benefit would be money right now, and we just don't need the cheaper contracts just yet.

We should be Keeping Smith, Kindl and Quincey. And finding a Team that is dumb enough to want XO, Jensen and Marchenko, and try trading them all for an actual D man who can play better than Smith or Kindl.

I see no evidence that XO, Jensen Or Marchenko are anything better than a #6 Dman.

Not Exactly my actual viewpoint, but for sake of this thread, I will argue this side.

The next d-man that Blashill develops will be the first one. With that being said he seemed to have success with Jensen so I would like to see if Jensen can tread water at the NHL level. Smith and Kindl have no value so basically you'd be clearing cap and roster space...which is fine with me. With DeKeyser out Smith had his shot and he's riding pine. Kindl isn't adding anything.

I've been pushing for the youth movment since Lidstrom retired. Once Smith and Kindl prove to add nothing under the tutelage of Blashill we can move them out and give Jensen, XO and Marchenko their shot.

 

[Heaton]

Kronwall still makes some turnovers in every game that look like rookie mistakes. He had an impressive one last night, a few feet straight up the middle from our goal.


I get the arguments all of us have made over the past five years about these guys. Personally, I'd just like to see enough games in this year for some type of pattern to start emerging for this team and this coach.

I guess, I don't understand why you think a bad player is going to be good under a new coach. Do you think we should've kept Weiss to see if he could be better under Blashill?

 

[Fugu]

I guess, I don't understand why you think a bad player is going to be good under a new coach. Do you think we should've kept Weiss to see if he could be better under Blashill?

I still have no idea what the hell was wrong with Weiss. Team signs a guy to a $5MM x 5 yr contract, and he can't beat Cleary out of a roster spot?


That said, there are players who simply don't fit into a certain system. Remember when the the Wings signed Ray Whitney? He looked much better everywhere else, before/after the Wings.

So I don't know how much of what ails some of these guys is on them, and how much of it was the way they were being used, what they were told to do vs their strengths/weaknesses. There are enough examples of players who looked better here than other teams, and the opposite. I'd ~at least~ like to see them under Blashill for some stretch to suss that out a bit.

 

[Heaton]

I still have no idea what the hell was wrong with Weiss. Team signs a guy to a $5MM x 5 yr contract, and he can't beat Cleary out of a roster spot?


That said, there are players who simply don't fit into a certain system. Remember when the the Wings signed Ray Whitney? He looked much better everywhere else, before/after the Wings.

So I don't know how much of what ails some of these guys is on them, and how much of it was the way they were being used, what they were told to do vs their strengths/weaknesses. There are enough examples of players who looked better here than other teams, and the opposite. I'd ~at least~ like to see them under Blashill for some stretch to suss that out a bit.

That's fair - to a point. But it feeds into Holland's weakness where he lets players continue to be average, and continue to not develop, until Holland is forced to make a move. Everything is reactionary, it's very rarely proactive. We're going under the guise that a player isn't bad because they're bad, they're only bad because Babcock made them bad? I'm just not so sure. There's a few players that people will blame Babcock 'killing' their careers, I tend to believe that good players are good regardless. I'll be absolutely shocked if in 20-25 games our defense has proven that they are all really good. We've seen them too much and too often to think that it will actually happen.

 

[Fugu]

That's fair - to a point. But it feeds into Holland's weakness where he lets players continue to be average, and continue to not develop, until Holland is forced to make a move. Everything is reactionary, it's very rarely proactive. We're going under the guise that a player isn't bad because they're bad, they're only bad because Babcock made them bad? I'm just not so sure. There's a few players that people will blame Babcock 'killing' their careers, I tend to believe that good players are good regardless. I'll be absolutely shocked if in 20-25 games our defense has proven that they are all really good. We've seen them too much and too often to think that it will actually happen.

No, we're going to put all these old hypotheses to test. How much of it is the player, the system, or coach, or GM. This is the biggest change we've had since all these topics have come up, and there aren't many players left from that Lidstrom-Yzerman era that handed off to Lids, Dats and Z.

 

[BinCookin]

Might be hard to move Ericsson with his hip issues, Smith might possibly have the most trade value of the 4 maybe Quincey as well for a desperate team that could use a top 4 LHD. Kindl has absolutely no value what so ever heard that Holland tried to get rid of him for either a 6th or 7th pick and got no takers his cap could have something to do with that. $2.4M for 2 more years for a 6th Dman at best is kind of expensive but put into the right situation I think Kindl could shine just not in Detroit.

Smith looked quite bad in games 3/4 this year. He got benched.

I have been watching our D men quite closely this year. Doing my normal scoring system. Would be interesting to know Henkka's combined scores for our D men. (maybe ill make another thread for that).... But I have quite frankly noticed Kindl to be doing almost everything right, next to smith doing almost everything wrong.
Its been quite night and day difference.

Quite frankly Kindl has looked good. Much better than useless. He is not at all doing as many turnovers as people think.

Because you guys have made your minds up about Smith AND Kindl... do not turn these guys into Smindl or Kinth... They are not the same guy. And they have looked competely different on the ice. IF you are watching closely.

 

[BinCookin]

I've been pushing for the youth movment since Lidstrom retired. Once Smith and Kindl prove to add nothing under the tutelage of Blashill we can move them out and give Jensen, XO and Marchenko their shot.

And what if Jensen, XO, Marchenko are actually worse than Kindl?

We just made the team worse.

We all know Kindl is a #6, paid like a #5. sure... but
Our rookies might not even be #6's. We save money, but who cares if it hurts the team. Does anyone see #4 style defensemen with these 3 guys?? (I have seen little evidence for ANY offense from them).. and you usually need that to be a #4 or higher (like a little).

 

[Run the Jewels]

And what if Jensen, XO, Marchenko are actually worse than Kindl?

We just made the team worse.

We all know Kindl is a #6, paid like a #5. sure... but
Our rookies might not even be #6's. We save money, but who cares if it hurts the team. Does anyone see #4 style defensemen with these 3 guys?? (I have seen little evidence for ANY offense from them).. and you usually need that to be a #4 or higher (like a little).

At this point they are all more or less replacement level players. They add absolutely nothing. So why not clear roster and cap space and see if Marchenko, Ouellet or Jensen can add anything to the roster? We have plenty of data to tell us Kindl is more or less a 7th d-man and that Smith is terrible. What more do you need to know about them? Does anyone really expect Blashill to turn them into legit NHL d-men?

I would happily trade Quincey if you could get anything for him. The fact is you cannot and he seems to have improved enough to at least play out his contract this year.

Kronwall-Ericsson
DeKeyser-Green
Quincey-random scrub

I cannot believe anyone is concerned about filling the random scrub spot with someone other than Smith or Kind.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Could we get anything for Smith? Because it's time EVERYONE faced it, he sucks and will never amount to anything. Simply doesn't read the game well enough.

maybe a mid round pick. could be just late round pick. he doesn't have bad contract and has been arguably the best dman in the playoffs for wings the past two seasons.

but no more than that because he hasn't shown enough offensively and as you said, he doesn't read the game well enough. he needs to be put in position to succeed. and he has failed at times even with that in detroit.

 

[Frk It]

maybe a mid round pick. could be just late round pick. he doesn't have bad contract and has been arguably the best dman in the playoffs for wings the past two seasons.

but no more than that because he hasn't shown enough offensively and as you said, he doesn't read the game well enough. he needs to be put in position to succeed. and he has failed at times even with that in detroit.

At this point, how exactly do you put him in a position to succeed?

Has he not been put in a position to succeed, or is he just not good?

 

[Classicnamesup]

I think Quincey has been pretty adequate the last couple years, surprised to hear everyone wants to get rid of him. The defence is already brutal and giving away Q for a pick makes it worse. Getting rid of Smith for a rookie is likely an improvement though

 

[odin1981]

I think Quincey has been pretty adequate the last couple years, surprised to hear everyone wants to get rid of him. The defence is already brutal and giving away Q for a pick makes it worse. Getting rid of Smith for a rookie is likely an improvement though

Because it is better to get something instead of nothing. He is around a #4-5 headed into FA. He would be overpaid making what he is at the #5 spot. And it is unlikely that you want to stunt the cap structure of a team.

Since he has proven he can handle 2nd pairing minutes he will more than likely want to go via free agency this offseason. Cause top 4 defenders last offseason where commanding between 5-5.5 per year. Coupled with his age and this being his last big pay day contract it makes since to ship him out at the deadline to recover something for him.

Smith doesn't command shit on the trade market. At best he is a 5th round pick. He is a bust.

 

[Frk It]

I think Quincey has been pretty adequate the last couple years, surprised to hear everyone wants to get rid of him. The defence is already brutal and giving away Q for a pick makes it worse. Getting rid of Smith for a rookie is likely an improvement though

I think the logic behind that is this - Ericsson, Dekeyser, Kronwall, Green are all on multi-year deals and seem somewhat locked in as the top 4.

Because Quincey has been pretty solid the last 2 years, he's not going to take a paycut just because he's the odd man out. And 4-5 mil is simply too much for a bottom pair guy.

So he becomes expendable at that price. One of E or Q should be moved, if we kept Q we would need to move E IMO. Not really sure anyone would take Ericsson's contract though, and front office seems to like him.

 

[Classicnamesup]

I agree I don't want to pay Q any more than he is now but this team right now needs him on D. At the TDL when we know we aren't contenders, sure move him but as this D currently stands I think he is too important to move.