Devil's Advocate Thread: Smith and Kindl

[GoAwayDanCleary]

To be honest, Ericsson is our poor mans Brad Stuart. And no one else seems to provide that crease clearing size... if you think that is an important factor in being a stay at home D man.

Ericsson can't hold Stuart's jockstrap. Big E sucks at this point and its sad to see. So methodical out on the ice I'd I had to guess he just hates hockey with the way he looks.

 

[redwingsphan]

Quincey is going to want more money than a bottom pairing guy should make. We should let soneone else give him that, we have to be smart with the cap with all these raises that are due. Empty net goal and 2 assists doesn't mean much, either.

The assist he had on Z's game winner was lucky, but it almost looked like he knew that Larkin was going to easily get to the dump. And the empty netter was pretty important, too.

 

[Laser Rayzor]

Ericsson can't hold Stuart's jockstrap. Big E sucks at this point and its sad to see. So methodical out on the ice I'd I had to guess he just hates hockey with the way he looks.

And he's under contract at $4.25M until 2020

 

[sean3250]

What has Ouellet done since Juniors? His offense has all but dried up at the pro level. He's a pretty bad skater too.

Marchenko is always injuried and currently riding the pine as the #7.

Jensen looks good defensively but I think people forget he's 25. He's played 122 pro games and hasn't even sniffed a call up.

People love to hate on Kindl and Smith but the fact of the matter is Ouellet, Marchenko, and Jensen have all played worse than Smith and Kindl did in the AHL. How can we expect these guys to be better than Smith and Kindl when they have been the worse players at the lower levels leading up to the NHL?

 

[Laser Rayzor]

People love to hate on Kindl and Smith but the fact of the matter is Ouellet, Marchenko, and Jensen have all played worse than Smith and Kindl did in the AHL. How can we expect these guys to be better than Smith and Kindl when they have been the worse players at the lower levels leading up to the NHL?

In his 2 full AHL seasons Duncan Keith scored 25 and 26 pts respectively, in 2 AHL seasons Kindl scored 33 pts each time using your logic Kindl is overdue for a Norris trophy

I agree with detredWINgs, it's too early to be writing these guys off. Will they ever become #1 defensemen? Probably not but to say their ceilings are bottom pairing D is a bit pre-mature. The exception here might be Jensen since he is older but to that I would bring up Sheahan an as example that AHL performance isn't the be-all end-all.

 

[HockeyinHD]

The problem with the 'we don't know what (prospect) will do until they get an NHL chance' strategy is that it's ultimately self-defeating.

In order to properly give all the people who anyone thinks should be given a shot, a shot... you'd have to so dilute the NHL roster that you'd end up with the guys getting 'a shot' playing mostly with other guys getting 'a shot' and not actual NHL-level players.

 

[Bench]

The problem with the 'we don't know what (prospect) will do until they get an NHL chance' strategy is that it's ultimately self-defeating.

In order to properly give all the people who anyone thinks should be given a shot, a shot... you'd have to so dilute the NHL roster that you'd end up with the guys getting 'a shot' playing mostly with other guys getting 'a shot' and not actual NHL-level players.

Normally I agree with this, and why I've generally defended the Wings "bring um up slow" philosophy. But I don't think the gap between these guys is that dramatic. In the call-ups they've had, they were in the ballpark. And it's not like 15 games on the pine for Kindl or Smith while somebody else gets an extended look is going to kill the team. Neither of those guys look like they are in the Red Wings long term plans anyway.

 

[HockeyinHD]

In his 2 full AHL seasons Duncan Keith scored 25 and 26 pts respectively, in 2 AHL seasons Kindl scored 33 pts each time using your logic Kindl is overdue for a Norris trophy

Keith isn't an offensive dynamo. He's mostly a stat aggregator due to a ton of IT and a very strong offensive team around him. He's under 1 goal for every 10 NHL games as a pro. That's well under the rate Kronwall scores goals, and there aren't many who call him a goalscorer at the position. He racks up a ton of assists.

I agree with detredWINgs, it's too early to be writing these guys off. Will they ever become #1 defensemen? Probably not but to say their ceilings are bottom pairing D is a bit pre-mature.

I don't think it's 'writing a guy off' when he doesn't do anything of note to merit a job besides not get hurt. If any of them do something, great. A guy should have to write himself in by achieving something. Detroit's dman prospects have been steadfastly moribund. That's their problem to fix, not Detroit's by playing Russian roulette with all of them to see if one of them magically sticks.

Smith and Kindl were effective #1 dmen there when they graduated from GR. Detroit's supposed to rotate up some sequence of guys who can't push Nate bleeping Paetsch down the roster there?

Pass.

 

[Filppula]

Kindl is far superior to Smith.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Normally I agree with this, and why I've generally defended the Wings "bring um up slow" philosophy. But I don't think the gap between these guys is that dramatic.

I agree. So... why call them up? Why not instead call up Paetsch, who's playing ahead of them in GR anyway?

Not that I'm advocating that, obviously, but if the 'just throw darts' strategy is being advocated here, why not with the best performing dmen on the GR roster?

In the call-ups they've had, they were in the ballpark. And it's not like 15 games on the pine for Kindl or Smith while somebody else gets an extended look is going to kill the team. Neither of those guys look like they are in the Red Wings long term plans anyway.

The difference is Smith (to a greater degree) and Kindl (to a lesser degree) have track records of success pre-NHL, and they were #1's. Both of those (and especially the second part) matter. If Smith and/or Kindl were 5's like Jensen or even 2's like Ouelett they'd have been gone already.

Detroit doesn't cut and run early with #1's, especially 1's on defense. Detroit kept Wallin (who was awful) in their system 8 years past draft day. They kept Kuznetzov (who was awful) 8 years past draft day. They kept Golubovsky (who was awful) 6 years post draft. They kept Eriksson (who was barely better than awful) 6 years post draft.

They're going to keep Smith and Kindl around until they expire as NHL talent, their NHL corpses bloat and burst, flocks of vultures feast on the remains, and they're pressed flat by hundreds of passing cars on just the off chance one of them might turn into something.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Keith isn't an offensive dynamo. He's mostly a stat aggregator due to a ton of IT and a very strong offensive team around him. He's under 1 goal for every 10 NHL games as a pro. That's well under the rate Kronwall scores goals, and there aren't many who call him a goalscorer at the position. He racks up a ton of assists.

that strong offensive team around him scores a heck of a lot less goals when keith isn't on the ice. pretty much every forward sees their production crater when they are without keith. some is on usage, lot of it that keith is dman good offensively.

keith gets a lot of ice time because he's so good. most defenseman would get killed with those minutes.

even using rate stats, only 4 defenseman have better production rate 5on5 per ice time than keith since 2012 (hedman, letang, karlsson and barrie). 4 if one includes barrie.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Ericsson can't hold Stuart's jockstrap. Big E sucks at this point and its sad to see. So methodical out on the ice I'd I had to guess he just hates hockey with the way he looks.

ericsson is so much better than what stuart is these days. ericsson is passable to 4dman. stuart is bottom pairing dman at best.

prime stuart though, i agree.

 

[HockeyinHD]

that strong offensive team around him scores a heck of a lot less goals when keith isn't on the ice.

Well, obviously. When Keith isn't on the ice I'd imagine the better offensive players aren't on the ice either

keith gets a lot of ice time because he's so good. most defenseman would get killed with those minutes.

I agree that he is good. I don't think he's particularly stunning offensively is all. He's fine, of course, I'm not saying he's bad offensively, but he's been 17th, 19th, 12th, 2nd, and 16th in total points the past 5 years at his position, playing the 1st, 2nd, 23rd, 15th, and 7th most IT/g.

He's fine. If I'm looking for offensive dmen, he's not in my top 20. Dmen overall? No doubt top 5.

even using rate stats, only 4 defenseman have better production rate per ice time than keith since 2012 (hedman, letang, karlsson and barrie). 4 if one includes barrie.

Swap the teams and Keith's offensive numbers go down while those guys' go up. Over that time frame Chicago's got the second most goals scored in the NHL to Pittsburgh. At a certain point we're just 'chicken or egg'-ing this discussion, but I'd have a hard time picking a better, deeper offensive group of forwards than what Keith's had in front of him while he's been racking up 82% of his points in his career as assists.

That's high even for dmen. 70-78ish% is generally typical. For examples, Subban's at 75%, Karlsson's at 73%, Burns is at 67%, Letang's at 76.6%, Doughty is at 75.4%, etc.

You can explain some of that away with usage given Keith's typically playing 2+ on the PK, but still.

 

[HockeyinHD]

ericsson is so much better than what stuart is these days. ericsson is passable to 4dman. stuart is bottom pairing dman at best.

prime stuart though, i agree.

Do you guys remember how much people here hated Stuart circa '10 and '11?

Like, a lot. I feel like I'm remembering this accurately (but you never know), but man it feels like he was a huge target for Detroit's defensive struggles those years.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Well, obviously. When Keith isn't on the ice I'd imagine the better offensive players aren't on the ice either

except toews has played more without keith than with keith 5on5 during that time period. same with hossa. and sharp. and kane. and saad.

I agree that he is good. I don't think he's particularly stunning offensively is all. He's fine, of course, I'm not saying he's bad offensively, but he's been 17th, 19th, 12th, 2nd, and 16th in total points the past 5 years at his position, playing the 1st, 2nd, 23rd, 15th, and 7th most IT/g.

their power play has sucked, especially their system. RHS play on the right side of the point and LHS one the left side, leaving them with little options except to pass it around in the perimeter.

Swap the teams and Keith's offensive numbers go down while those guys' go up. Over that time frame Chicago's got the second most goals scored in the NHL to Pittsburgh. At a certain point we're just 'chicken or egg'-ing this discussion, but I'd have a hard time picking a better, deeper offensive group of forwards than what Keith's had in front of him while he's been racking up 82% of his points in his career as assists.

That's high even for dmen. 70-78ish% is generally typical. For examples, Subban's at 75%, Karlsson's at 73%, Burns is at 67%, Letang's at 76.6%, Doughty is at 75.4%, etc.

You can explain some of that away with usage given Keith's typically playing 2+ on the PK, but still.

he doesn't have great shot that some of those others have and he doesn't shoot the puck as often. burns has played quite a bit at forward. only karlsson is as good passer (actually better) and he definitely hasn't had as good talent around him.

yandle has similar ratio and he's definitely offensive dynamo for me. and this is the first full season when he's going to have lot of offensive talent around him.

Do you guys remember how much people here hated Stuart circa '10 and '11?

Like, a lot. I feel like I'm remembering this accurately (but you never know), but man it feels like he was a huge target for Detroit's defensive struggles those years.

wasn't around back then but i think he started to fall off somewhere around 10-11 and 11-12. that's when his puck skills seemed to completely disappear.

 

[HockeyinHD]

except toews has played more without keith than with keith 5on5 during that time period. same with hossa. and sharp. and kane. and saad.

Those guys are playing maybe 20 minutes a night. Keith is playing 26ish. Makes sense that in a 60 minute game the 20 minute guy isn't going to have >10minutes of their IT with the 26 minute guy.

their power play has sucked, especially their system. RHS play on the right side of the point and LHS one the left side, leaving them with little options except to pass it around in the perimeter.

And Keith is their best offensive dman, typically. Past him the skill level diminishes noticeably.

 

[Tatar]

I don't like singling out a specific player but, Smith has been out there for 3 goals against tonight. Lost coverage and poor positioning all game long. Scratching him a few games might motivate him to watch the tapes and elevate his game. Worse game I've seen from him in a long time.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Get rid of Ericsson, Smith, Kindl, and eventually Quincey. Trade for Hamhuis or Byfuglien, bring up Ouellet and Jensen, and I'd feel better.

 

[TatarTangle]

It hasn't even been a handful of games but I was hoping Blashill could tap into Smith's talent and turn him into a defensman. I'm afraid the only way to salvage anything out of Brendan Smith is to trade him.

 

[Mount Royal]

It hasn't even been a handful of games but I was hoping Blashill could tap into Smith's talent and turn him into a defensman. I'm afraid the only way to salvage anything out of Brendan Smith is to trade him.

I think a lot of us were. At this point I'm just set on Smith not being that good.

 

[TatarTangle]

I think a lot of us were. At this point I'm just set on Smith not being that good.

It went from one extreme to the other; Babcock had the shortest leash on him and Blashill is giving him free rein. Smith isn't the brighest bulb in the box so that's not exactly the smartest idea. Third time is the charm; ship him to a coach that'll teach him some structure.

 

[Mount Royal]

It went from one extreme to the other; Babcock had the shortest leash on him and Blashill is giving him free rein. Smith isn't the brighest bulb in the box so that's not exactly the smartest idea. Third time is the charm; ship him to a coach that'll teach him some structure.

I don't mean to jump from one extreme to another, I just disagree. I've never been high on Smith, but always figured that he had some untapped talent given what he showed early in college. I just don't see it right now.

On the coaches: Babs ran a very structured, possession-focused system, and we saw that Smith wasn't a fit. That's why he was on a short leash. We all thought he'd be better in Blashill's more aggressive system, but he looks just as bad - not because he isn't playing to his strengths, but because if the team is more aggressive, they're more prone to counter-attacks off turnovers. Smith's got a turnover problem and his positioning isn't great. It's not a good mix, and it masks his strengths because his poor defensive play is that much more present.

The guy's gonna be 27 in February. I know defencemen develop more slowly than forwards, but if he really needs to be traded in order to succeed in an environment that hasn't been toxic (unlike, say, Dubnyk on an unsuccessful Edmonton team), I think it's more on Smith.

 

[Go Wings]

It went from one extreme to the other; Babcock had the shortest leash on him and Blashill is giving him free rein. Smith isn't the brighest bulb in the box so that's not exactly the smartest idea. Third time is the charm; ship him to a coach that'll teach him some structure.

I dont think Blashill is giving him free reign at all. Smith played the least of any defensemen tonight just over 14 minutes and Ericsson played the 2nd least at just over 15 minutes. Both were awful tonight so the fact they played the least shows the coach is noticing. If Dekeyser comes back sat night hopefully Smith will be scratched.

 

[Frk It]

Defended Smith for forever and ever, but I'm done with him. Cut the cord already.

Positioning in the defensive zone is atrocious. He honestly processes the game like a child.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Get rid of Ericsson, Smith, Kindl, and eventually Quincey. Trade for Hamhuis or Byfuglien, bring up Ouellet and Jensen, and I'd feel better.

... but the team would be worse.