Devil's Advocate Thread: Smith and Kindl

[BinCookin]

Many on this board have for a long time been calling for the removal of:

Quincey and/or Smith and/or Kindl

To make room for:

XO and/or Marchenko and/or Jensen


As much as some poster's here dislike Q, S and/or Kindl.

I feel these 3 players are infact BETTER than any of XO, Marchenko and Jensen.

It is very possible that the Ceiling for these 3 young kids is at best equal to the current Smith or Kindl.

The only benefit would be money right now, and we just don't need the cheaper contracts just yet.

We should be Keeping Smith, Kindl and Quincey. And finding a Team that is dumb enough to want XO, Jensen and Marchenko, and try trading them all for an actual D man who can play better than Smith or Kindl.

I see no evidence that XO, Jensen Or Marchenko are anything better than a #6 Dman.

Not Exactly my actual viewpoint, but for sake of this thread, I will argue this side.

Click to read more...

 

[Flowah]

I think XO/AM top out as a middle pairing dman. More likely, a #4-5. Jensen I think has potential.

But you're right. We've given both those guys a decent number of games and they haven't shown much more than bottom pairing, possibly middle pairing play. Of course they are younger and therefore are more likely to find another step than a 28 year old Kindl.

 

[Frk It]

I really don't love Ouellet, Marchenko or Jensen all that much...

That said I really can't see how you can justify Smith in the lineup over them at this point.

Kindl is whatever, at least he shows some flashes of offense at times.

 

[Soft Rock Renegade]

really don't think we've seen enough of oullette and marchy and haven't seen any of Jensen at the NHL level. but what we have seen is at least as good as kindl and smith in my opinion. we are just hoarding depth for no reason. smith is already a turnover machine this year and kindl is a terrible partner for him. the fact is that neither has value so can't be traded so we keep sending them out there. but they'll be replaced by playoff time just like last year. the org has no faith in them when push comes to shove.

 

[PullHard]

I don't feel we've seen enough of any of the younger players to say they will never be better than Brendan Smith

Seems really premature to say that

 

[Frk It]

Ouellet, Jensen, and Marchenko have next to no trade value. Ouellet might have the most of that group being a former 2nd round pick, but as a standalone piece I think he has next to no value.

Keeping Kindl and Smith, who have shown little to nothing, in favor of the 3 aforementioned guys who have also shown little to nothing but are much cheaper, younger, and with more potential still would be a stupid decision.

Q and one of Kindl/Smith need to be gone by next year. Ideally all 3 are.

No trades or signings 16-17

Kronwall-Ericsson
Dekeyser-Green
Ouellet-Jensen
Marchenko

16-17 with trade or signing (what I'm hoping for)

Kronwall-Acquisition
Dekeyser-Green
Ericsson-XO/Jensen/March

 

[odin1981]

KFQ is over paid to be a #5. Smith is a ****ing bust. But 2, 5 game stretches where he played with Kronner are lauded over by his fans (wait you mean when you play with our best defender you look better? Shocker never knew! ).

Of the three the only player I would have qualms over letting go right now is Kindl. He never got a fair shake with Babs and there is potential with him. But he is heading towards his 30's and he is a UFA so he doesn't come cheap. But that is mainly to let him build value so potentially next year he is worth more to get rid of than a Hakan special (7th rounder).

I would love for Kenny to get rid of smith and kyle. but we all know Kenny and he don't do trades for roster players. But kfq could potentially land a middle rounder back to us and maybe even a 2nd depending on the market at the deadline. Smith is **** and I am being generous thinking because he was a 1st rounder he might be able to fetch a 5th.

XO and Jensen should be on the team right now. The only way they get better at the NHL level is by getting the reps and exp in. They are also 1/2 the cost of smith and 1/4 of kyle. That would give us a good bit off cap space to deal with (between 4 and 4.5 million) so if we really where gonna push our chips on a cup run this year that would equate to almost 12-13 million to work with at the trade deadline.

Marchenko might have been hurt and it effected his camp or he could be the new and cheaper Lashoff as backup. But he would probably be best served getting first pairing minutes in GR and maybe developing a bit further.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Another GM:

"I understand that you are high on these guys Ken, but if they are as good as you are telling me they are, why haven't they been able to win jobs over Smith and Kindl?"

Marchenko, XO and Jensen are at a point where they really need to play NHL games and learn to make decisions and react at NHL pace to truly develop into NHL defensemen. People don't want to admit it, but Smith and Kindl are much better today than they were when they first came into the league. If you give Marchenko, XO and Jensen 200 NHL games, this discussion will be much different.

 

[Bench]

Guys like Quincey, Smith, and Kindl might be more NHL ready than other players the Wings could bring in. There's some truth there. Experience counts for something.

But we also know exactly where their ceiling is right now. And it's not good enough. You can keep playing your modest hand again and again hoping for better results, or you can take a swing at something that has a chance to be more.

 

[detredWINgs]

The whole lot of them are vanilla yet serviceable in the 4-6 spots, depending on the player of course. But I think it's wayyyy too early to call the game on any of XO, Marchy or Jensen. The NHL is littered with defenseman who were nobodies or mediocre before it all fell into place for them after the age of 25/26. Beauchemin, Gio, Russell, Greene, Ericsson, Campbell, Boychuk and others are all a testament to the learning curve for defenseman.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Kindl's ship has sailed. Smith can still improve. XO, Marchy, Jensen are all just prospects and you would need a crystal ball to know where they top out. I will say playing Smith/Kindl as a pair is just plain dumb.

 

[Martinez]

I pretty much agree with this. I like how kindl has looked this season, he's actually looking physical and using his size. Smith has been bad . Quincey hasnt stuck out which is a good thing , besides one awful play where he just stood there and green made a diving play. So 2/3rds haven't been bad, counting last season too. Wouldn't blash be begging to have one of these rookie guys in the lineup if they were that great. With all that being said, xo, march, and nick jr should get a fair look in the nhl.

 

[Frk It]

KFQ is over paid to be a #5. Smith is a ****ing bust. But 2, 5 game stretches where he played with Kronner are lauded over by his fans (wait you mean when you play with our best defender you look better? Shocker never knew! ).

Of the three the only player I would have qualms over letting go right now is Kindl. He never got a fair shake with Babs and there is potential with him. But he is heading towards his 30's and he is a UFA so he doesn't come cheap. But that is mainly to let him build value so potentially next year he is worth more to get rid of than a Hakan special (7th rounder).

I would love for Kenny to get rid of smith and kyle. but we all know Kenny and he don't do trades for roster players. But kfq could potentially land a middle rounder back to us and maybe even a 2nd depending on the market at the deadline. Smith is **** and I am being generous thinking because he was a 1st rounder he might be able to fetch a 5th.

XO and Jensen should be on the team right now. The only way they get better at the NHL level is by getting the reps and exp in. They are also 1/2 the cost of smith and 1/4 of kyle. That would give us a good bit off cap space to deal with (between 4 and 4.5 million) so if we really where gonna push our chips on a cup run this year that would equate to almost 12-13 million to work with at the trade deadline.

Marchenko might have been hurt and it effected his camp or he could be the new and cheaper Lashoff as backup. But he would probably be best served getting first pairing minutes in GR and maybe developing a bit further.

The year when Ericsson got hurt and Smith stepped into the top pair (believe it was the same year we played Boston), Smith definitely played more than 5 games on the top pair. Like a lot more.

 

[Bench]

The year when Ericsson got hurt and Smith stepped into the top pair (same year with Boston), Smith definitely played more than 5 games on the top pair. Like a lot more.

He also didn't look as good as people are saying. He exceeded his expectations, of course, but the Bruins were still in control of that series from start to finish. It's not like "Oh good, Kronwall and Smith are out there, the Wings might score now." Not even close. He was overwhelmed on the top pairing and the lack of chances for the Wings reflected that.

 

[Frk It]

He also didn't look as good as people are saying. He exceeded his expectations, of course, but the Bruins were still in control of that series from start to finish. It's not like "Oh good, Kronwall and Smith are out there, the Wings might score now." Not even close. He was overwhelmed on the top pairing and the lack of chances for the Wings reflected that.

Against Boston? I would disagree with that. That is the best I have seen Smith play since his 14 games in 2011-2012. And by a mile. He looked confident and great, and it's not his fault the forwards and almost everyone else was garbage (Dats and Z were hurt, go figure). That was in spite of Smith's play, not because of it.

But that series against Tampa... that was very meh to me. TZE likes to say he was our best defenseman, and I really didn't see that personally.

To me, Smith was good the second half of 13-14 and has been pretty much trash since. Which sucks because we all thought he was going to build on that season, and he didn't at all.

 

[Tatar Shots]

I've been starting to feel this way for the past couple months. We have seen virtually no offense from any of Ouellet, Marchenko, and Jensen. Ouellet and Marchenko are also inferior skaters to Smith and Kindl. Ouellet is the only one I think who might be able to look good on a 2nd pairing. Marchenko has not shown anything that has suggested he will be anything more than a 3rd pairing Dman who can play the PK. The organization has really not even bothered to give Jensen much of a look and they can probably safely pass him through waivers next year. The team needs to get better defensemen, but I don't think the defensemen we need will be coming through the organization for at least another couple of years.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I also have no real expectations for any of the defensive prospects. but at the same time, i need to see them play in the NHL before i am willing to abandon ship.

At the same time i know what we have in Kindl and Smith. Absolutely nothing.

Smith got hyped up by the Wings organization and he crashed and burned.

Kindl managed to not even meet his very low expectations.

 

[TheOtherOne]

I think Q Kindl Smith being better than XO March Jensen right now has always been obvious.

I think the clamoring has all been more along the lines of "these guys suck, give someone new a chance and hope that he improves quickly".

I think every single one of these guys is unremarkable at best (maybe aside for Q, he's pretty solid). It would just be interesting to throw one of these kids in for an extended period to see if there are any flashes of anything more.

 

[Henkka]

Quincey has been rock solid at this season.

I'm starting to prefer keeping him. That's what Kenny does. he won't let Q walk as an UFA.

Trade both Smith and Kindl. They will never pan out anything special.

Quincey is at least physical and now his offense looks to be coming back. Better overall package than those two.

 

[Bench]

Against Boston? I would disagree with that. That is the best I have seen Smith play since his 14 games in 2011-2012. And by a mile. He looked confident and great, and it's not his fault the forwards and almost everyone else was garbage (Dats and Z were hurt, go figure). That was in spite of Smith's play, not because of it.

Looking better than you did before while getting manhandled isn't a triumph, though. Also a really small sample size, even if I do buy into the notion his play was good enough.

 

[BinCookin]

XO and Jensen should be on the team right now. The only way they get better at the NHL level is by getting the reps and exp in. They are also 1/2 the cost of smith and 1/4 of kyle.

Although XO and Jensen might be cheaper, we technically do not need the money this year. I would argue that although XO and Jensen might gain the kind of experience that allows them to MAYBE be better than Kindl/Smith NEXT year, I would think they certainly would be worse this year.

What im saying is we would be a weaker team this year. Who cares about the money saved.. Maybe they can continue to get better at hockey in the AHL until its "OBVIOUS" they should be here.

The whole lot of them are vanilla yet serviceable in the 4-6 spots, depending on the player of course. But I think it's wayyyy too early to call the game on any of XO, Marchy or Jensen. The NHL is littered with defenseman who were nobodies or mediocre before it all fell into place for them after the age of 25/26. Beauchemin, Gio, Russell, Greene, Ericsson, Campbell, Boychuk and others are all a testament to the learning curve for defenseman.

True, I am not really calling for them to be traded. I am calling for them all to stay down until they get better (IF IF IF they can get better).
It is also possible our rookies will NOT be servicable #5 or #6 Dmen.

Wouldn't blash be begging to have one of these rookie guys in the lineup if they were that great.

He made a case for Larkin. One would think he would be more vocal about these rookie D men, if he really wanted them. I have not heard much.

I've been starting to feel this way for the past couple months. We have seen virtually no offense from any of Ouellet, Marchenko, and Jensen.

This seems to be a key point about bottom pairing D men. Are they supposed to provide ANY offense? Kindl and Smith have shown flashes that they MIGHT have the talent to do that. XO, Marchenko, Jensen not so much. But its much harder for us fans to judge the DEFENSIVE awareness of all these bottom pairing guys. Mostly we notice their "flaws" in comparison to higher pairing guys. (As we should, thats why they are higher pairing guys). But would XO, M, Jensen actually be better defensively? This answer of "they cant be any worse" is not true... they could be much worse.

I think Q Kindl Smith being better than XO March Jensen right now has always been obvious.

I think the clamoring has all been more along the lines of "these guys suck, give someone new a chance and hope that he improves quickly".

I think every single one of these guys is unremarkable at best (maybe aside for Q, he's pretty solid). It would just be interesting to throw one of these kids in for an extended period to see if there are any flashes of anything more.

I feel Quincey has been drastically underrated around here for a while. He has been quite solid for a while now. (Its not just a "good stretch").
You may be right.. its the grass is greener syndrome. Smith sucks... we all know it... maybe XO wont suck so bad... But he could infact be worse. People are not acknowledging the fact that we could infact get worse in these #5 and #6 spots.

 

[PelagicJoe]

The only bad thing about Q right now is his cap hit. I thought he was garbage when he first came back here, but he has proved me wrong since.

Smith is one I have never really been much of a fan of. I'M willing to watch him play a few more games with Blashill in charge before giving him a verdict. I'm still leaning towards Smith going to the trade bait pile.

Kindl is an anomaly. He's looked ok so far, but I've only been able to watch a game and a half or so. He shows more flashes of offense than Smith, but his cap hit sucks.

I'm also open to finding a replacement for Ericsson.

 

[BinCookin]

I'm also open to finding a replacement for Ericsson.

To be honest, Ericsson is our poor mans Brad Stuart. And no one else seems to provide that crease clearing size... if you think that is an important factor in being a stay at home D man.

 

[Martinez]

Quincey has been rock solid at this season.

I'm starting to prefer keeping him. That's what Kenny does. he won't let Q walk as an UFA.

Trade both Smith and Kindl. They will never pan out anything special.

Quincey is at least physical and now his offense looks to be coming back. Better overall package than those two.

When danny d comes back I think q and kindl will make a solid 3rd pairing defensively. Trade smith, u know a player sucks when they are dragging kindl down lol.

 

[Frk It]

Quincey has been rock solid at this season.

I'm starting to prefer keeping him. That's what Kenny does. he won't let Q walk as an UFA.

Trade both Smith and Kindl. They will never pan out anything special.

Quincey is at least physical and now his offense looks to be coming back. Better overall package than those two.

Quincey is going to want more money than a bottom pairing guy should make. We should let soneone else give him that, we have to be smart with the cap with all these raises that are due. Empty net goal and 2 assists doesn't mean much, either.