Devils 2020-21 team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part IX

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MartyOwns

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Apr 1, 2007
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He's 16th in the KHL in points...poor bastard, just racks up the goals and points everywhere he plays.

no, not everywhere!

To me it's kind of a lesson...a guy like Reid can dominate other leagues but still be not good enough for the NHL... that's not the lesson however...

i think the lesson is probably that points generated in subpar leagues like the AHL, KHL, etc do not always translate to NHL success, i think that's fair to say.

the lesson is what does it say about the guys who can barely put up a half point per game at 22 years in the AHL? You know like half of the guys we consider a part of our super deep prospect pool.

who does that apply to? bastian, mcleod and sharangovich? it doesn't apply to holtz, foote, thompson, kuokkanen, merkley, mercer, etc. hardly half of our prospects. personally, as a devils fan, i've never been less concerned about our prospect pool.
 

JimEIV

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Ehh he is one of those examples of guys who have a lot of skill, but won't put in the extra effort to do what's necessary at the NHL level.

You can get by with a few amazing one off skills in the lower levels, but to make it in the NHL you either have to have freak level skill in a few areas, like early Kovi or Laine, be well rounded enough where you aren't a liability, or be determined enough to be a constant thorn in the side of whoever is on the other side of the ice at any moment. And that last one isn't tough guy/pest related. Just a compete level high enough that the other team is always on guard, like Coleman or some of the rotating 3rd/4th line guys that come up from the AHL to play that role plus PK.

Reid doesn't fall into any of those categories, he's got an amazing shot for sure, but he isn't getting thrown onto the top line of any team if he cracks the NHL, and he doesn't seem to change his game enough to fit on any lower line, so he never stuck.
The players who become 3rd and 4th line guys in the NHL still produce well in the AHL that's the thing...a guy like Coleman was a .7 points per game player with 46 points in 66 games. He was a bit older but none of our prospects were really close to that in Binghamton this season. Bastian was kind of close with 38 in 62 .61 ppg and he'll be 23 next week. And he has been in the top 6 for a large portion of his AHL career.

Sharongovich with 25 points in 57 games was a .438 ppg player this season at 22 and total AHL career of 125 games and 42 points for .336 points per game at 21 and 22 years old...Matteau for comparison did 53 points in 128 games as 20 and 21 year old player for .414 ppg.... players with any real NHL potential typically don't put up less than a half point per game in the AHL...I am not trying to delineate with .5 ppg...but good players, even potential 4th liners produce at the AHL level is really the point.
 
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TrufleShufle

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The players who become 3rd and 4th line guys in the NHL still produce well in the AHL that's the thing...a guy like Coleman was a .7 points per game player with 46 points in 66 games. He was a bit older but none of our prospects were really close to that in Binghamton this season. Bastian was kind of close with 38 in 62 .61 ppg and he'll be 23 next week. And he has been in the top 6 for a large portion of his AHL career.

Sharongovich with 25 points in 57 games was a .438 ppg player this season at 22 and total AHL career of 125 games and 42 points for .336 points per game at 21 and 22 years old...Matteau for comparison did 53 points in 128 games as 20 and 21 year old player for .414 ppg.... players with any real NHL potential typically don't put up less than a half point per game in the AHL...I am not trying to delineate with .5 ppg...but good players, even 4th liners produce at the AHL level is really the point.
I'm not getting into our prospect pool and what it means or doesn't mean for them, my only issue is using Reid as an example of, "if he scores this much and doesn't produce, what does that mean for the other guys who score less?"

Reid is a prime example of a guy who can get by with a few above average skills against lower competition, but fails against top level. He shouldn't be used as a benchmark, that is all.
 

NJ DevLolz

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If we're being honest, Boucher probably deserved more of a shot in the NHL than he received. His issue wasn't "not wanting it enough". He didn't have the pace to excel at this level
 
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BurntToast

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May 27, 2007
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I have a question we can debate:

Let’s say the season will start Jan 15/Feb 1st for a prerequisite:

Do you recall all the prospects from the Euro Leagues/KHL that were loaned or do you keep them over there to develop with the risk of the AHL not having a season?

Side Question:

Does anyone find it odd that a good portion of AHL team continues to succeed elsewhere? Is this a meteoric rise or the byproduct of bad development/system finally being removed?
 

My3Sons

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I have a question we can debate:

Let’s say the season will start Jan 15/Feb 1st for a prerequisite:

Do you recall all the prospects from the Euro Leagues/KHL that were loaned or do you keep them over there to develop with the risk of the AHL not having a season?

Side Question:

Does anyone find it odd that a good portion of AHL team continues to succeed elsewhere? Is this a meteoric rise or the byproduct of bad development/system finally being removed?

Your second question is probably a bit of both. It’s also a relatively small sample size. Who is actually playing right now overseas? Merkley Sharangovich Kuokkanen and Maltsev is on a roster but doesn’t play?
 

Billdo

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Side Question:

Does anyone find it odd that a good portion of AHL team continues to succeed elsewhere? Is this a meteoric rise or the byproduct of bad development/system finally being removed?
Probably both. Being forced to play an ineffective system that didn't cater to the actual players skillset was obviously a barrier to their development because when it was removed the team really came together and kind of took off. We had a decent amount of quality players in the A last year and more reinforcements are coming. If there is a season, it would be disappointing if they're not in the playoffs next year.
 

Triumph

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Yeah, he didn't seem to fit anywhere. Not enough pace to play in the top 6 where his shot would be most effective but not gritty enough to play in the bottom 6. He was basically JAG with a great shot.

If he were a JAG with a great shot I think he'd still be in the NHL. He was one of the worst skaters I've seen. Behind the play going up the ice and behind the play going back down the ice. Not enough pace to get defenders to move out of shooting lanes. Otherwise, phenomenal offensive player and he should beat up on any non-NHL league for the next half-decade.
 
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TheUnseenHand

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If he were a JAG with a great shot I think he'd still be in the NHL. He was one of the worst skaters I've seen. Behind the play going up the ice and behind the play going back down the ice. Not enough pace to get defenders to move out of shooting lanes. Otherwise, phenomenal offensive player and he should beat up on any non-NHL league for the next half-decade.

He was no worse a skater than Butcher is IMO.
 

Triumph

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He was no worse a skater than Butcher is IMO.

Butcher is also a really poor skater, but he is a defenseman and he gets by on his smarts with and without the puck. Same with Gusev. But yeah, if Butcher were an average skater he'd probably be the best D on the team.
 

Triumph

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That is not remotely true.

His shot isn't even that good. Holtz has a great shot. Reid has an OK shot. It's good enough for lower leagues.

Let's not sell Reid short here. If he's that poor a skater and his shot isn't that good, how did he score 90 goals in the AHL in his last 154 games? That's almost certainly the best scoring rate for anyone with 100 AHL games over that time frame. He has a stellar shot and in the AHL he is able to use it effectively.
 
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BurntToast

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Your second question is probably a bit of both. It’s also a relatively small sample size. Who is actually playing right now overseas? Merkley Sharangovich Kuokkanen and Maltsev is on a roster but doesn’t play?

Merkley, Sharangovich, Kuokkanen, Boqvist, Studenic all have succeeded. Zetterland has put up some points as well and Maltsev gets a pass.
 
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Billdo

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That is not remotely true.

His shot isn't even that good. Holtz has a great shot. Reid has an OK shot. It's good enough for lower leagues.
Eh, I'll disagree with this. His skating was the only thing keeping him from staying in the NHL. He could score with the best of them in the A and obviously in juniors. His skating obviously is the negating factor but his shot was still extremely good.
 

Guttersniped

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He's 16th in the KHL in points...poor bastard, just racks up the goals and points everywhere he plays.

To me it's kind of a lesson...a guy like Reid can dominate other leagues but still be not good enough for the NHL... that's not the lesson however...the lesson is what does it say about the guys who can barely put up a half point per game at 22 years old in the AHL? You know like half of the guys we consider a part of our super deep prospect pool.
I’m just reading this now and while I’m sure other people have commented on this but I gotta say that to crap on the 22 year old tied for 4th in goals in the KHL because he’s lacking in assists in order to weirdly praise Boucher and then finally segue into shaking your fist at the current prospect pool is truly a testament to your commitment to this long running bit.

Sharangovich was an overager drafted in the late 5th round in 2018 (141st) and, yes, he’s part of the hodgepodge of intriguing whatnots beyond the few blue chips that was mostly late picks. This scouting staff does an excellent job with late picks but there are limits to what they can find there.

I heard good things about how Boucher was playing at the start of the KHL season so this is a big surprise. Now that teams aren’t spending any money on forwards maybe Boucher will have a more of a shot a NHL job if he gets a new 2-way deal, assuming he doesn’t plan on staying a KHL star.
 

OmNomNom

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Mar 3, 2011
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I have a question we can debate:

Let’s say the season will start Jan 15/Feb 1st for a prerequisite:

Do you recall all the prospects from the Euro Leagues/KHL that were loaned or do you keep them over there to develop with the risk of the AHL not having a season?

Side Question:

Does anyone find it odd that a good portion of AHL team continues to succeed elsewhere? Is this a meteoric rise or the byproduct of bad development/system finally being removed?
rink size and the strategies teams employ with the extra 13.4ft in width could in theory affect their gameplay - it spaces the wingers and D pairings out a bit more and could allow for some variation in gameplay. Also QoC of course.

fun fact by the way that i just came across, KHL updated their rink sizes this past season, so they're closer to NHL rink sizes now.
 

TheUnseenHand

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That is not remotely true.

His shot isn't even that good. Holtz has a great shot. Reid has an OK shot. It's good enough for lower leagues.

I disagree. Butcher is one of the slowest NHL skaters I've ever seen. I didn't say Boucher was as good a player as Butcher either. Butcher is better at his position than Boucher will ever be at his. But they are both slow skaters.
 

Guttersniped

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The players who become 3rd and 4th line guys in the NHL still produce well in the AHL that's the thing...a guy like Coleman was a .7 points per game player with 46 points in 66 games. He was a bit older but none of our prospects were really close to that in Binghamton this season. Bastian was kind of close with 38 in 62 .61 ppg and he'll be 23 next week. And he has been in the top 6 for a large portion of his AHL career.

Sharongovich with 25 points in 57 games was a .438 ppg player this season at 22 and total AHL career of 125 games and 42 points for .336 points per game at 21 and 22 years old...Matteau for comparison did 53 points in 128 games as 20 and 21 year old player for .414 ppg.... players with any real NHL potential typically don't put up less than a half point per game in the AHL...I am not trying to delineate with .5 ppg...but good players, even potential 4th liners produce at the AHL level is really the point.
Bastian was at most middle six in Bing since he’s never played on the top line or had much power play opportunities for most of the year. The scoring binge he had at the end of the year actually was from his getting power play time so people might be reading into it that scoring a bit too much (unless he’s getting on the PP). He plays defensive minutes in general and honestly has likely been dragged down by a streaky McLeod at times, because Mikey, above all, has some real questionable offensive upside in the NHL.

Now Coleman spent four years in college, was 23 when he went pro and didn’t play a game in the NHL until his D+6 so I’m not sure how he represents a quick maturation process as a prospect. He was also drafted 75th in a deep draft where 59.2% of the picks played in the NHL so it wasn’t even a super crazy late find. Ray apparently felt his scouts needed challenges because they mostly had a lot of even later picks than that to work with considering all the losing we did.

Sharagnovich, an overager picked 141st, was a product of an Belarus national juniors program who was playing the KHL, which is a rather unconventional path to the NHL to say the least. He showed improvement in Bing and people who followed the team had good things to say about him but he has seemed like an afterthought. He didn’t seem to get any power play time even when he was getting more playing time in the top six as a center when Street was out in January. He scored and assisted on several shorties so he was getting plenty of PK time which lines up with @Guadana Coleman comparisons.

But now as much as you want to focus on his points per game, Sharangovich’s goals per game are currently the 2nd highest for a 22 year old in KHL history. Number one is Wild prospect Kaprizov from last season, so Radulov, Gusev, Panerin etc currently trail behind. Now obviously he might not keep up that pace and, yeah, he weirdly only has 3 assists. 28 games is a good chunk though, the hope is he can keep scoring at least close to this pace and start getting more assists. He’s also wearing an ‘A’ at age 22 which is a pretty unique honor for someone that young in the KHL.

Most don’t make the NHL as a full time player anyway so, yeah, of course a lack of scoring punch in the AHL isn’t a great sign for anyone. There are late bloomers : Connor Garland, Tyler Bertuzzi, Yanni Gourde, Phillip Danault etc plus numerous lesser players who proved to be still useful at some point. Obviously the key for prospects is seeing some sort of positive development, or knowing the potential reasons why we aren’t really seeing it at that moment, so I’m not sure why Sharagnovich’s flurry of goal scoring in the KHL is a cause for bellyaching here. He’s a big fast boy (listed at over 200 lbs) who could potentially add a scoring big body to bottom six so cheer up buckaroo.

Yegor Sharangovich

22-Year Old KHL Players - Regular Season Stats
 

Jason MacIsaac

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Jan 13, 2004
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Lets say we pencil Sharangovich in as 3rd line LW, at his size and skating with his shot it seems like an ideal fit. This is an assumption that he does return from the KHL this year.

Johnsson - Hischier - Gusev
Bratt - Hughes - Palmieri
Sharangovich - Zacha - Merkley/Boqvist
Wood - Zajac - Bastian

Murray - Severson
Smith - Subban
Butcher - Kulikov

This is looking like a lineup that could surprise, especially given our goaltending. Now it is up to Lindy Ruff to transform this into a product on the ice.
 
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