Devils 2019 offseason team discussion (news and notes) VI

[Hischier and Hughes]

But if we need to add a top lhd(which I don't think is a need per se), what does adding Subban have to do with that? I don't see why making one move makes it harder to make another. Lack of assets I guess, but we do have assets.

As per Vat's, either
A)he could be involved in the trade to acquire Subban
B)He plays the #1 lhd spot
C)We roll 3 strong down the left side
D)he could be involved in trade for a lhd. Which goes back to the assets point above

But what does happen if we acquire Subban is we add a very good player to our defense, I'd say pretty clearly our best d-man. So no matter who else is on the top pair with him whether it be Greene, Mueller, Smith or someone we add in a trade, our top pair is now better then it was prior to adding Subban.

You genuinely think the top pair LHD isnt a need? You really mean that?

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

I really don't understand what you are trying to get everyone else to understand, not with this one post, but with most of your posts over the past couple weeks.

Do you think people expect to have the entire team overhauled with out giving much up? Because I don't see anyone saying that's possible. Or are you just telling people to not be excited nor optimistic? In which case, I don't think that is going to happen, and it shouldn't make you so irate that people are excited. Unless I'm completely off base in what you are trying to get across to everyone, in which case, please let me know.

In simplest terms

People make comments about acquiring Trouba or Subban. These moves require further moves to make fit. Backtrack to how we have been inactive for over a year bringing talent in. Usual comments are ‘two to tango’ or ‘no need to overpay’.

Now back to acquiring a RHD. Making moves that require further moves yet weve been unable to make ANY moves to bring in talent over a year.

Have these barriers that have stopped us thus far vanished? Thats Part 1.

Then we have people who GENUINELY believe RHD is more of a need than LHD (which is mind blowing, really). Yet another move is required to fill the only truly vacant spot on defense.

That goes back to step 1 and then jumps to step 2 - getting all these deals done in one off-season and not overpaying drastically for it

Whereas if we simply acquire a LHD...........

 

[devilsblood]

You genuinely think the top pair LHD isnt a need? You really mean that?

I've been saying it, we have #'s on the left side, and we have talent there as well, the talent is young and lacks experience but we do have talent.

So yes a top pair lhd is our most glaring "need", but is it a spot we "need" to address? If a move is there that makes sense, then no question you make it, but if it's not, and we don't or can't make a move, then what happens? Then we play hockey and hope Smith or Davies, or Butcher or Mueller can get it done. And whoever is in that spot, I'm confident in saying they would fare better with Subban, then they would with Vat's.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

I've been saying it, we have #'s on the left side, and we have talent there as well, the talent is young and lacks experience but we do have talent.

So yes a top pair lhd is our most glaring "need", but is it a spot we "need" to address? If a move is there that makes sense, then no question you make it, but if it's not, and we don't or can't make a move, then what happens? Then we play hockey and hope Smith or Davies, or Butcher or Mueller can get it done. And whoever is in that spot, I'm confident in saying they would fare better with Subban, then they would with Vat's.

I 100% disagree with all of this.

So were not acquiring a LHD because we have 19 year olds? Seriously?

And no. NOT ONE of Butcher Greene Smith or Mueller is faring anything on the top pair, IDC who the partner is

Its unfathomable to me how some people dont see the top pair LHD spot as a MUST FIX and NOW.

 

[devilsblood]

In simplest terms

People make comments about acquiring Trouba or Subban. These moves require further moves to make fit. Backtrack to how we have been inactive for over a year bringing talent in. Usual comments are ‘two to tango’ or ‘no need to overpay’.

Now back to acquiring a RHD. Making moves that require further moves yet weve been unable to make ANY moves to bring in talent over a year.

Have these barriers that have stopped us thus far vanished? Thats Part 1.

Then we have people who GENUINELY believe RHD is more of a need than LHD (which is mind blowing, really). Yet another move is required to fill the only truly vacant spot on defense.

That goes back to step 1 and then jumps to step 2 - getting all these deals done in one off-season and not overpaying drastically for it

Whereas if we simply acquire a LHD...........

I don't understand how the "barriers" to acquire a lhd would be any more or less pronounced were we to make a trade for a rhd.

I'm also not sure Shero was looking hard for a lhd last season. I think he was OK rolling with Mueller Greene Butcher. I don't think Mueller did all that well as a top pairing guy, though I do think he did pretty well if we are talking pure defensive work in his own zone, but Mueller, like our D in general looked way worse because our goal tending was so bad.

 

[devilsblood]

I 100% disagree with all of this.

So were not acquiring a LHD because we have 19 year olds? Seriously?

And no. NOT ONE of Butcher Greene Smith or Mueller is faring anything on the top pair, IDC who the partner is

Its unfathomable to me how some people dont see the top pair LHD spot as a MUST FIX and NOW.

Do we need to acquire a #2 center? Or are we OK with an 18 year old?

And Davies will be 23 in December.

 

[MadDevil]

I'm sure Ray Shero would like to add a top 4 LHD that is good in his own zone, but he can't just wave a magical wand in the air and make one appear.

 

[devilsblood]

Interestingly regarding Gardiner, though he didn't really play on the PK, he did lead Toronto d-men in terms of toi with a lead, 1 minute more then Reilly, 2 minutes more then Muzzin. His %'s from corsi to goals for/against ranged from average to very good.

His offensive zone starts % were less then everyone except Muzzin, who did have a pretty low #(35%) here.

Edit: Does anyone know where we can find 3rd period, or late game #'s in regards to toi with and without leads?

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

I don't understand how the "barriers" to acquire a lhd would be any more or less pronounced were we to make a trade for a rhd.

Any assets we use to acquire an RHD will then be unavailable to use in a trade for a LHD. That much should be obvious. That's not to say there's a "barrier" erected to preclude acquiring a LHD, but we'll have a shallower pool of assets to choose from. Our options would be limited accordingly.

However, if we're able to use Vatanen as the centerpiece in a deal for a defensive LHD, along with some menial assets on top, I'd be a lot more open to upgrading at RHD. It all depends what options present themselves, and when.

Do we need to acquire a #2 center? Or are we OK with an 18 year old?

And Davies will be 23 in December.

Huh?

Nico/Jack/Zacha/Zajac is what we're looking at. There's zero need to spend any assets or dollars on more center depth.

 

[NJDevs26]

That goes back to step 1 and then jumps to step 2 - getting all these deals done in one off-season and not overpaying drastically for it

Whereas if we simply acquire a LHD...........

You keep going round and round and round on this when it's mostly a meme created by you. Sure the team needs to do multiple things to improve. Do people actually think five or six big things are going to happen this offseason? Probably not. Doesn't mean we can't debate five or six big things on the off chance a couple of them happen, which given our cap situation is a possibility. And just because nothing happened last offseason it doesn't mean nothing's going to happen every single offseason thereafter. Before last offseason they had at least one significant trade every other offseason under Shero.

 

[Darkauron]

Days like this make me miss Abo even more. At least he was the fun kind of crazy.

 

[devilsblood]

Any assets we use to acquire an RHD will then be unavailable to use in a trade for a LHD. That much should be obvious. That's not to say there's a "barrier" erected to preclude acquiring a LHD, but we'll have a shallower pool of assets to choose from. Our options would be limited accordingly.

However, if we're able to use Vatanen as the centerpiece in a deal for a defensive LHD, along with some menial assets on top, I'd be a lot more open to upgrading at RHD. It all depends what options present themselves, and when.



Huh?

Nico/Jack/Zacha/Zajac is what we're looking at. There's zero need to spend any assets or dollars on more center depth.

1)yeah, acquiring Subban would then make Vat's an asset.

2)Jack is 18 and we are fine penciling him in at #2 C. So why not with the 19 year old Smith as the #1 lhd?

 

[mtnet]

Team discussion was due to heat up and get rolling again

 

[MartyOwns]

Whereas if we simply acquire a LHD...........

ok, so it’s simple? who do we acquire, and what are we giving up for them?

 

[MartyOwns]

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

Th irony of this is the only way I see us acquiring a top 4 LHD with potential to play our top pair is to overpay and we got Hidden Hair going off the rails because people feel like we can get Subban at a discount or acquire a forward on a cap strapped team.

 

[TrufleShufle]

In simplest terms

1.People make comments about acquiring Trouba or Subban. These moves require further moves to make fit. Backtrack to how we have been inactive for over a year bringing talent in. Usual comments are ‘two to tango’ or ‘no need to overpay’.

Now back to acquiring a RHD. Making moves that require further moves yet weve been unable to make ANY moves to bring in talent over a year.

Have these barriers that have stopped us thus far vanished? Thats Part 1.

Then we have people who GENUINELY believe RHD is more of a need than LHD (which is mind blowing, really). Yet another move is required to fill the only truly vacant spot on defense.

That goes back to step 1 and then jumps to step 2 - getting all these deals done in one off-season and not overpaying drastically for it

Whereas if we simply acquire a LHD...........

Part 1. Maybe we havn't made any moves recently because it wasn't the right time. People bring up Grabner as a mistake, one Shero might of had to make or not, depending on how you look at it, it's a convo that's been had too many times already, but still, it ended up not being the right move and at the wrong time. Maybe Shero has hunkered down a bit more since then waiting for the right time to get back out there. I believe this team has been in a period since then where it is more of a let things settle, let prospects come up, let's acquire assets and get back at it. I'm sure if another Taylor Hall fell in his lap he would have taken it, but there was no reason to go after that stuff.

So with all that, if he is, as a lot people believe, ready to go for it, there is absolutely no issue in making trades that then need further trades to make work. Of course at some point he might over pay a bit and or lose out on someone because they just didn't have a place on the team and other GMs knew it. But at the end of the day if it makes the team better overall and more set up to start contending, it would be worth it.

Part 2. You will need to point me to the people who "GENUINELY believe RHD is more of a need than LHD," I don't seem them. What I do see is posters talking about a lot of upgrades on defense which mostly happen to be RHD. There just isn't a lot of top teir LHD for the taking at the moment, so obviously they get talked about less. Our defense is overall, nothing to write home about. Upgrading either side would help A LOT. A couple reasons why, first, you can use the RHDs that get pushed out, package them with other assets and try to then upgrade the left. Another option is moving guys we aren't going to get rid of, over to the left. And last, if we get a RHD who is better than all of our other RHD and one of our current RHD just magically poofs into thin air never to be seen again with out anything in return.... and C+,LHD and A ,RHD pair is STILL better than a C+,LHD and B-,RHD pair.

"Whereas if we simply acquire a LHD" I'm sure if one comes along, who moves the dial enough to give up assets and is available to the NJD, it will happen. But if it doesn't, it isn't the end of the world.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

You genuinely think the top pair LHD isnt a need? You really mean that?

This reminds me of something one of my high school teachers told me about being the high school swim coach. "It's the easiest job in the world. All I do is sit there and yell 'swim faster!'"

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

ok, so it’s simple? who do we acquire, and what are we giving up for them?

Ive answered this question four times in the last month, im not retyping it all

If people seriously think there isnt any LHD to be had then idk what to say. Like as if Shero has never acquired guys who werent known yo be available

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

1)yeah, acquiring Subban would then make Vat's an asset.

2)Jack is 18 and we are fine penciling him in at #2 C. So why not with the 19 year old Smith as the #1 lhd?

Where did this come from?

Or is that a topic being contested in content that I've ignored? In which case, I'll leave that to you guys to sort out. Not worth my time.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Th irony of this is the only way I see us acquiring a top 4 LHD with potential to play our top pair is to overpay and we got Hidden Hair going off the rails because people feel like we can get Subban at a discount or acquire a forward on a cap strapped team.

I would overpay out the f***ing ass for a LHD. Then sign a forward like Eberle if Hall stays cause their butt buddies

Done offseason. No need for ten moves or three defensive changes or any bullshit. Acquire two players. Thats it.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

1)yeah, acquiring Subban would then make Vat's an asset.

2)Jack is 18 and we are fine penciling him in at #2 C. So why not with the 19 year old Smith as the #1 lhd?

Yeah because Ty Smith is as capable to handle 1D as Jack Hughes is 2C. Real great comparison there.

Im sure Ray Shero is licking his chops at the bit to have Jeremy f***ing nobody Davies hold up a move to acquire a LD

 

[TrufleShufle]

I would overpay out the ****ing ass for a LHD. Then sign a forward like Eberle if Hall stays cause their butt buddies

Done offseason. No need for ten moves or three defensive changes or any bull****. Acquire two players. Thats it.

This years 1st OA? Which recent draft pick with huge upside? Hischer? Bratt? Smith? Any of those, in addition to other assets would be "overpaying out the ****ing ass." It would also cripple the team.

Unless you just mean, maybe next years first and a few random picks, or prospects with not nearly as much upside. In which case, we probably aren't getting the LHD you are thinking about.

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

I would overpay out the ****ing ass for a LHD. Then sign a forward like Eberle if Hall stays cause their butt buddies

Done offseason. No need for ten moves or three defensive changes or any bull****. Acquire two players. Thats it.

Trade Will Butcher+ for Jonas Brodin and use picks/prospects/cheap NHL options to get JT Miller and Callahan. Done offseason.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

This years 1st OA? Which recent draft pick with huge upside? Hischer? Bratt? Smith? Any of those, in addition to other assets would be "overpaying out the ****ing ass." It would also cripple the team.

Unless you just mean, maybe next years first and a few random picks, or prospects with not nearly as much upside. In which case, we probably aren't getting the LHD you are thinking about.

Who knows / half the board wont even consider moving the 2020 1st but expect to get guys like Subban and Trouba

Its a fantasy land of bullshit around here right now because everyone thinks Shero is some God who doesnt ever lose a trade. When in reality he will have to pay more for a premium talent if he wants to make upgrades he claims hes going to.

Those willing to accept going into the season with Greene/Smith/Butcher as the LD are copout fans who are fine placing last in the division again.