Devils 2019 offseason team discussion (news and notes) VI

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Balance

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IMO I would get rid of Severson for a more defensive D-man, we already have a plethora of offensive minded D-men. Severson should give us the best trade value and without him the team will be more responsible on the defensive end which is much needed.
 

StevenToddIves

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Just curious if you had any thoughts on TJ Brodie.

Brodie is better offensively than Brodin, but just as pedestrian defensively and just as invisible physically. Again, not what the Devils need, and certainly not worth the trade assets he would cost. The only Calgary defenseman who would improve the Devils blueline is Hamonic, but he would probably cost more to acquire than Brodie.
 
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devilsblood

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IMO I would get rid of Severson for a more defensive D-man, we already have a plethora of offensive minded D-men. Severson should give us the best trade value and without him the team will be more responsible on the defensive end which is much needed.
Severson is the last d-man I would look to trade. And yes that includes Smith.

He's 24 years old, played in all situations, led the team in TOI, led the team in points, and is under team control for the foreseeable at a very reasonable contract.

And the organizational depth at rhd is not looking good.
 
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devilsblood

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Brodie is better offensively than Brodin, but just as pedestrian defensively and just as invisible physically. Again, not what the Devils need, and certainly not worth the trade assets he would cost. The only Calgary defenseman who would improve the Devils blueline is Hamonic, but he would probably cost more to acquire than Brodie.
Where did you come up with this "Brodie is pedestrian defensively"? His defensive #'s are excellent.
 

StevenToddIves

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You think he’s an “average” 5/6D?

Sorry, that’s wrong.

He definitely isn’t anything special offensively, but he is a defensive rock that Wild fans praise to no end. He’s miles ahead of Mirco Mueller. That’s a ridiculous comparison.

On Minnesota, the top three defensemen are unquestionably Suter, Dumba and Spurgeon. The Wild 4/5 is some combination of Brodin and Pateryn. While Brodin is a bit better with the puck on his stick, Pateryn is certainly more physical than the decidedly noncombative Brodin and stronger in his own zone. But I will give you that Brodin can be a serviceable #4 on a decent NHL blueline.

Is Brodin better than Mueller? Yes. I wasn't comparing their styles of play, simply their levels of play. But there is no way on earth Brodin is a top 3 D, not even on a Devils team which is desperate for an upgrade on the blueline. The idea of trading the #34 pick and a prospect in order to give Tom Wilson and Evgeni Malkin another guy to swat out of the way on their way to scoring against the Devils is absurd.
 

StevenToddIves

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I'd say this is selling him a little short, but I agree he would be a horrible player to target via trade. Just not that good of a player and wouldn't move the needle for the Devils at all. Basically just more of what we already have in the pipeline.



I agree the Devils should be looking at every avenue to try to acquire Jacob Trouba. Ideally, I would want to acquire him with a protected 2020 1st rounder as the main piece of the trade. But I think it would probably have to take Vatanen for the Devils to win the bidding war. Unless they value draft picks highly.

This would be my first offer to Winnipeg for Trouba: 2020 1st round pick (lottery protected) + Mike McLeod + 2019 34th overall + Mueller/Santini/Carrick

Too much to give up for Trouba, although I agree that Winnipeg pulls the trigger on that deal in a heartbeat. If you're giving up the 2020 1st (even lottery protected), there's no need to add in that #34 pick, which is essentially a late first-rounder.
 

devilsblood

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Brodie's 5v5 defensive #'s look pretty good as well. And he does bring more offense then Brodin.

PK #'s are much better for Brodin though.

If I had to choose one I think, I'd def go Brodie. Brodin looks like a younger version of current Andy Greene. The left side is heavy with young guys who you don't want to lean to heavily on defensively, but that doesn't mean we should have 2 guys who are almost exclusively defense first.
 

devilsblood

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On Minnesota, the top three defensemen are unquestionably Suter, Dumba and Spurgeon. The Wild 4/5 is some combination of Brodin and Pateryn.
Dumba Spurgeon and Pateryn are all righties.

Brodin played 2:20 more per game of 5v5 then Pateryn, (and Pateryn's toi #'s were boosted due to Dumba being injured). Brodin's defensive #'s were better across the board.

Brodin was Minnesota's clear #4.
 

Nubmer6

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Brodie is better offensively than Brodin, but just as pedestrian defensively and just as invisible physically. Again, not what the Devils need, and certainly not worth the trade assets he would cost. The only Calgary defenseman who would improve the Devils blueline is Hamonic, but he would probably cost more to acquire than Brodie.
The only issue is that Hamonic i a RHD, while Brodie is LHD (even though he plays the right side). He's also rumored to be available for a reasonable price. Also, Hamonic left this area to be out west near his family.
 

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IMO I would get rid of Severson for a more defensive D-man, we already have a plethora of offensive minded D-men. Severson should give us the best trade value and without him the team will be more responsible on the defensive end which is much needed.

lol

Severson is our best DMan

trading him makes no sense under really any circumstance.
 

billingtons ghost

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Not enough to know.

But I'd say that is true for everyone here.
That's fair.
I think I've seen maybe 15 of his games the last two years. He seems to me to be one of those guys who's skating and usage can cover a number of ills, but who is deficient defensively in just about every facet. Less physical vatanan.
Not really what we need.
Wish trouba was lhd.
If we're bothering with Brodie, we may as well sign Gardiner to see if he can reverse his reputation.

Edit: my vats comp is pretty bad.. not sure who I'd pick on our team.
 

StevenToddIves

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Where did you come up with this "Brodie is pedestrian defensively"? His defensive #'s are excellent.

I honestly don't put a ton of stock in analytic numbers unless you're comparing two similar players who are deployed similarly. I would rather watch the players. Brodin and Brodie are both guys who can be beaten one-on-one, especially by physical forwards. Both of them are decidedly unphysical and are routinely overpowered in the crease and along the boards. Neither block shots very well, though both are good positionally and in gap control, which certainly deter shots from being taken.

Though Brodie is decidedly an asset with the puck on his stick, Brodin is not. Brodin is solid with an outlet pass and makes smart decisions with the puck, but he lacks any discernible vision, while Brodie's vision is good. But Brodie is also prone to the occasional poor play with the puck, while Brodin rarely makes those types of mistakes. Brodin's weakness is simply that he is not very difficult to beat down low, especially if you're a physical forward who can intimidate him into giving you too much space.

Why are these two getting shopped? Well, in Brodie's case it's that Rasmus Andersson replaced him as Mark Giordano's sidekick, and outplayed him as such. Brodie is a serviceable 4/5 defenseman with one year left on his contract at $4.6 million (with a NMC), which the Flames would like to unload because he's not discernibly better than Andersson -- plus, they believe that Valimaki and Kylington can easily fill his role as the Flames' #3 LD behind Hanifin and Andersson.

As for Brodin, it's more difficult to pinpoint, since the Minnesota GM (Paul Fenton) has proven to be both unpredictable and not very competent (Niederreiter for Rask, straight up, cough cough). It is certainly fact that Minnesota looked pretty good last year until Matthew Dumba was injured and the blueline began to show cracks. Suter and Spugeon were excellent as always, but the defense core behind them was routinely dominated by opposing forwards. Still, I don't see why Fenton would shop Brodin -- the Wild LD is very thin behind Suter and he's a solid 4/5 D whose contract is only slightly too high at $4.1 million for two more seasons.


Have you ever watched him play?

I agree with you that analytics are too often used as a substitute for analysis. It's tough for me to believe that people would want to give up valuable assets to acquire a player like Brodin or Brodie who would do nothing to address the major problems concerning the Devils blueline: too soft, too small, routinely pushed around, not fast enough, no big point shot, etc. Neither Brodin nor Brodie has a singular dynamic skill whatsoever. Better to give Smith and Davies that ice time -- even though they might make rookie mistakes, at least there's discernible upside there at the end of the rainbow. With Brodin and Brodie what you see is what you get, and it's not very much.
 

Nubmer6

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That's fair.
I think I've seen maybe 15 of his games the last two years. He seems to me to be one of those guys who's skating and usage can cover a number of ills, but who is deficient defensively in just about every facet. Less physical vatanan.
Not really what we need.
Wish trouba was lhd.
If we're bothering with Brodie, we may as well sign Gardiner to see if he can reverse his reputation.
One of the things I like about Brodie i that he's got 1 year left on his contract. We can bail out if he sucks or re-sign him if he meshes, as opposed to signing a long term deal with Gardiner.
 
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StevenToddIves

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That's fair.
I think I've seen maybe 15 of his games the last two years. He seems to me to be one of those guys who's skating and usage can cover a number of ills, but who is deficient defensively in just about every facet. Less physical vatanan.
Not really what we need.
Wish trouba was lhd.
If we're bothering with Brodie, we may as well sign Gardiner to see if he can reverse his reputation.

Oh lord, Gardiner -- please no. 40 assists per year for his team, 35 assists per year for the opposition. No thank you.
 

devilsblood

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Should be noted I'm not advocating a Brodin trade, I don't think we need a defensive first d-man, I was arguing against the idea that Brodin is pedestrian defensively. Which the #'s argue strongly against, and yes that includes usage(to some level as Suter is the workhorse on the left side).
 
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Zajacs Bowl Cut

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Should be noted I'm not advocating a Brodin trade, I don't think we need a defensive first d-man, I was arguing against the idea that Brodin is pedestrian defensively. Which the #'s argue strongly against, and yes that includes usage(to some level as Suter is the workhorse on the left side).

wat
 

StevenToddIves

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Dumba Spurgeon and Pateryn are all righties.

Brodin played 2:20 more per game of 5v5 then Pateryn, (and Pateryn's toi #'s were boosted due to Dumba being injured). Brodin's defensive #'s were better across the board.

Brodin was Minnesota's clear #4.

You truly want to give up the #34 pick or Jesper Boqvist (likely the necessary starting points) to acquire a serviceable #4 defenseman who offers no physicality or offense whatsoever?
 

devilsblood

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Also, I don't really care about the offense from these potential DMen acquisitions if I am being honest

between Butcher, Severson, Vatanen and Smith coming up we have enough offense coming from the backend IMO. We need a defensive stopper back there.
I think we could use someone on the left who can defend to a degree, but I don't want a pure defensive d-man, as Greene is already holding down the fort in that regard on the left side.

Brodie looks like a guy who has 2 way ability.
 

billingtons ghost

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I honestly don't put a ton of stock in analytic numbers unless you're comparing two similar players who are deployed similarly. I would rather watch the players. Brodin and Brodie are both guys who can be beaten one-on-one, especially by physical forwards. Both of them are decidedly unphysical and are routinely overpowered in the crease and along the boards. Neither block shots very well, though both are good positionally and in gap control, which certainly deter shots from being taken.

Though Brodie is decidedly an asset with the puck on his stick, Brodin is not. Brodin is solid with an outlet pass and makes smart decisions with the puck, but he lacks any discernible vision, while Brodie's vision is good. But Brodie is also prone to the occasional poor play with the puck, while Brodin rarely makes those types of mistakes. Brodin's weakness is simply that he is not very difficult to beat down low, especially if you're a physical forward who can intimidate him into giving you too much space.

Why are these two getting shopped? Well, in Brodie's case it's that Rasmus Andersson replaced him as Mark Giordano's sidekick, and outplayed him as such. Brodie is a serviceable 4/5 defenseman with one year left on his contract at $4.6 million (with a NMC), which the Flames would like to unload because he's not discernibly better than Andersson -- plus, they believe that Valimaki and Kylington can easily fill his role as the Flames' #3 LD behind Hanifin and Andersson.

As for Brodin, it's more difficult to pinpoint, since the Minnesota GM (Paul Fenton) has proven to be both unpredictable and not very competent (Niederreiter for Rask, straight up, cough cough). It is certainly fact that Minnesota looked pretty good last year until Matthew Dumba was injured and the blueline began to show cracks. Suter and Spugeon were excellent as always, but the defense core behind them was routinely dominated by opposing forwards. Still, I don't see why Fenton would shop Brodin -- the Wild LD is very thin behind Suter and he's a solid 4/5 D whose contract is only slightly too high at $4.1 million for two more seasons.




I agree with you that analytics are too often used as a substitute for analysis. It's tough for me to believe that people would want to give up valuable assets to acquire a player like Brodin or Brodie who would do nothing to address the major problems concerning the Devils blueline: too soft, too small, routinely pushed around, not fast enough, no big point shot, etc. Neither Brodin nor Brodie has a singular dynamic skill whatsoever. Better to give Smith and Davies that ice time -- even though they might make rookie mistakes, at least there's discernible upside there at the end of the rainbow. With Brodin and Brodie what you see is what you get, and it's not very much.

Wow. Exactly all this. I've never switched on a cgy game where Brodie wasn't losing the puck in some fashion but looks great as a puck lugger. I think his pairings have always covered his warts. Great post.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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I think we could use someone on the left who can defend to a degree, but I don't want a pure defensive d-man, as Greene is already holding down the fort in that regard on the left side.

Brodie looks like a guy who has 2 way ability.

Greene is 36 years old and has 1 year left on his contract, plus he is already on the decline. We absolutely need a defensive stalwart on the left side.
 

StevenToddIves

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Should be noted I'm not advocating a Brodin trade, I don't think we need a defensive first d-man, I was arguing against the idea that Brodin is pedestrian defensively. Which the #'s argue strongly against, and yes that includes usage(to some level as Suter is the workhorse on the left side).

Ok, never mind the debate then. My bad -- I thought you were saying the Devils should trade for Brodin. Sorry about that.
 

devilsblood

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You truly want to give up the #34 pick or Jesper Boqvist (likely the necessary starting points) to acquire a serviceable #4 defenseman who offers no physicality or offense whatsoever?
No, see above, I don't want Brodin, I was just arguing against the idea that he is pedestrian defensively, and 4/5 for Minnesota. I think both of those statements are incorrect. Certainly the 2nd one is, and I'd say pretty confidently the first is as well.
 
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