Devils 2019-20 offseason team discussion (news and notes)

[Billdo]

I'd imagine the top 6 is very close to being set with some configuration of Hall, Hischier, Bratt, Gusev, Hughes, and Palmieri. The bottom 6 is trickier but I'd love to see a line of Wood-Zacha-Simmonds. That's a real heavy physical line. Then roll Coleman-Zajac-Anderson/Bastian.

 

[jkrdevil]

the evidence shows that he is developing slowly and performing less than we’d all hoped but proves nothing about the future

Yes, we can’t glean anything about what might might happen in the future by looking at the past. Your history teacher must have been proud of you.

 

[RangerDoggo]

Every year Zacha says the right things (i.e. “I know I need to shoot more” last preseason) and he proceeds to not follow up on them. He’s either too lazy or simply doesn’t have the hockey IQ to move past the actual “do it” step. The denial of the fact that we’re not getting anywhere near the player that Lou and Conte thought they were getting is getting old.

 

[jkrdevil]

He was drafted by Shero

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Every year Zacha says the right things (i.e. “I know I need to shoot more” last preseason) and he proceeds to not follow up on them. He’s either too lazy or simply doesn’t have the hockey IQ to move past the actual “do it” step. The denial of the fact that we’re not getting anywhere near the player that Lou and Conte thought they were getting is getting old.

who is denying that? What are you even talking about?

I haven't seen anyone here say Zacha is going to ever come close to the PPG player he was drafted to be. We all know he won't. However, that doesnt mean he cant be a useful player. 3rd liners who can PK at an elite level can be solid NHL players and with Hughes/Hischier now we don't need Zacha to be a top 6 center anymore

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

He was drafted by Shero

THIS is what needs to end. Shero was hired like 4 weeks before the draft. Lou (and Conte) clearly ran the 2015 draft....just go back and look at the videos of our picks. Putting the draft in the hands of a guy who had been on the job a month would have been very irresponsible.

 

[Cheddabombs]

The problem with Zacha, as I’ve said before, is that flashes are all we have to work with. For whatever reason, he is completely incapable of putting it together for an entire season, and I think that isn’t going to change. He is who he is.

Keep comparing him to Couturier all you want, but he doesn’t have the brain to go that trajectory.

maybe it's just me, but saying "he is who he is" of a 22 year old seems very premature

 

[MadDevil]

If Hughes and/or Gusev don't beat out Zacha for a top 6 role, we're probably in trouble.

 

[Call Me Al]

Yes, we can’t glean anything about what might might happen in the future by looking at the past. Your history teacher must have been proud of you.

i’m sorry but correct me if i’m wrong but the nhl is filled with guys who actually get better when they hit the ages of 23-27

 

[RangerDoggo]

maybe it's just me, but saying "he is who he is" of a 22 year old seems very premature

He is certainly capable of putting up more than 25 points a season, but given that he’s made no progress towards getting over that average in three full NHL seasons, I’m not exactly holding my breath

i’m sorry but correct me if i’m wrong but the nhl is filled with guys who actually get better when they hit the ages of 23-27

Cool. Name one that isn’t Couturier.

 

[RangerDoggo]

THIS is what needs to end. Shero was hired like 4 weeks before the draft. Lou (and Conte) clearly ran the 2015 draft....just go back and look at the videos of our picks. Putting the draft in the hands of a guy who had been on the job a month would have been very irresponsible.

This is correct- Zacha was the Lou/Conte regime’s final turd in the bed of the Devils fanbase. However, I submit that Shero was responsible for screwing up Zacha’s development by making him an NHL regular before he was ready.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

He is certainly capable of putting up more than 25 points a season, but given that he’s made no progress towards getting over that average in three full NHL seasons, I’m not exactly holding my breath

Cool. Name one that isn’t Couturier.

I'm confused...are you really saying that Zacha can't continue improving...?

If you haven't seen the progression, you haven't been paying attention.

Like I said, he won't ever be a PPG superstar. That doesnt mean his progression can't continue

 

[Call Me Al]

name a player that got better after turning 22? is that a serious question?

kuznetzov had 37 points his age 22 season. 77 the next season

giroux had 47 points his age 23 season. 76 the next

it’s probably harder to find players that had their best seasons before their age 23 season, and zacha was 21 for most of this year so it’s not crazy or unprecedented to expect his next two seasons to show improvement

 

[TheUnseenHand]

What is wrong with Zacha as he is now? You need 3rd and 4th liners too. You can't have an entire team of Halls and Hischiers.

 

[jkrdevil]

i’m sorry but correct me if i’m wrong but the nhl is filled with guys who actually get better when they hit the ages of 23-27

No one is saying players don't get better in that age range, but you have to temper your expectations based on their baseline play.

1st off both players you cited had significantly higher baseline than Zach. There is a big difference between putting up 37 & 47 points, than putting up 25 points with a similar amount of average ice time. Both Giroux and Kuznetsov put 2.07 and 2.08 points per 60 minutes of ice time respectively the year before their jumps. Zacha put up 1.52 points per 60 minutes of ice time.

As such they play earned them expanded roles. Each players average ice time their next "breakout" season was on average 3 minutes more per game and presumably with better line mates. And let's be honest, it isn't a linear curve. Those players higher baselines means they were more likely to put up a high pp60 jump.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

The problem with Zacha, as I’ve said before, is that flashes are all we have to work with. For whatever reason, he is completely incapable of putting it together for an entire season, and I think that isn’t going to change. He is who he is.

Keep comparing him to Couturier all you want, but he doesn’t have the brain to go that trajectory.

Even though I disagree, the reall issue I take is people penciling Gusev immediately in to the top 6.

We have seen so many times elite KHL's come over and their game either not translating, or are half the players they were in Russia.

Kovy was well over a ppg in SKA before last season. He produced at a 3rd line clip for a terrible Kings team. And that's a dude who's had phenomenal success in the NHL previously.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Yes, we can’t glean anything about what might might happen in the future by looking at the past. Your history teacher must have been proud of you.

Except Zacha's recent past is quite promising.

It's also not a scratch off ticket. Which two other guys are.

 

[Blackjack]

name a player that got better after turning 22? is that a serious question?

kuznetzov had 37 points his age 22 season. 77 the next season

giroux had 47 points his age 23 season. 76 the next

it’s probably harder to find players that had their best seasons before their age 23 season, and zacha was 21 for most of this year so it’s not crazy or unprecedented to expect his next two seasons to show improvement

Todd Bertuzzi. Kyle Palmieri.

When Brian Gionta was a 22 year old rookie he scored 11 points in 33 games. In his second season, age 23, he scored 23 points in 58 games. The following season he scored 29 points in 75 games, still less than half a point per game at age 24. The next season he scored 89 points.

Travis Zajac scored 42 points in 80 games as a rookie when he was the same age Zacha was this season. The following season he scored 34 points over a full season. The next season he scored 62. Ollie Jokinen was 24 when he broke out. It's not at all unusual.

 

[MartyOwns]

name a player that got better after turning 22? is that a serious question?

kuznetzov had 37 points his age 22 season. 77 the next season

giroux had 47 points his age 23 season. 76 the next

it’s probably harder to find players that had their best seasons before their age 23 season, and zacha was 21 for most of this year so it’s not crazy or unprecedented to expect his next two seasons to show improvement

you named two players who had produced more than zacha has 200 games into their careers. their point totals jumped in the seasons you mentioned because their ice time increased that season, which happened because they had produced more than zacha.

unlike kuznetsov and giroux, zacha’s ice time won’t increase because he isn’t better than anyone in our top 6. that’s the entire point

What is wrong with Zacha as he is now? You need 3rd and 4th liners too. You can't have an entire team of Halls and Hischiers.

agreed, and he’s a damn good guy for our bottom six

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Cool. Name one that isn’t Couturier.

Gusev, Nikita

Hall, Taylor

Palmieri, Kyle

 

[jkrdevil]

Except Zacha's recent past is quite promising.

It's also not a scratch off ticket. Which two other guys are.

It's a small sample size in what was overall mediocre season. The beginning of the season still counts.

And the other two guys aren't scratch off tickets. They aren't two guys who have never played hockey. You can look at their production in the league's they played in and project what they may be able to produce in the NHL and compare against what Zacha projects to be based off of his existing NHL numbers. Especially, Gusev who put big numbers in a very good league.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

It's a small sample size in what was overall mediocre season. The beginning of the season still counts.

And the other two guys aren't scratch off tickets. They aren't two guys who have never played hockey. You can look at their production in the league's they played in and project what they may be able to produce in the NHL and compare against what Zacha projects to be based off of his existing NHL numbers. Especially, Gusev who put big numbers in a very good league.

And I am projecting Zacha to be what I believe he can off of what I've seen him do on NHL ice.

The scratch off thing is an appropriate simile because all of those tickets are in the lottery, some pan out. Could be $10, could be 100k for life. Guess what the SHL and KHL for kids who don't make the leap immediately or in D+1 are to the NHL?

 

[Hisch13r]

What is wrong with Zacha as he is now? You need 3rd and 4th liners too. You can't have an entire team of Halls and Hischiers.

Nobody is saying he isn't a good bottom 6 player. Just that he isn't a top 6 player

 

[Jack Be Quick]

you named two players who had produced more than zacha has 200 games into their careers. their point totals jumped in the seasons you mentioned because their ice time increased that season, which happened because they had produced more than zacha.

You know what player he didn't name?

Nikita Gusev who produced trash by the age of 22 and nothing remotely notable until he was 24 and on a super team in a much lesser league.

So why are we throwing Zacha under the bus and anointing this guy again?

At the very least consistency would be nice from some of Pavel's detractors.

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

The zacha back and forth is hilarious. Please keep naming players who got better after age 22 because i am unclear if that has ever happened. Also please keep saying zacha is more accomplished in the nhl than two players that have never played in the nhl (and ignore the other stuff surrounding that). Zacha can be a very important player on this team not on the wing in the top 6, why is that so bad?