Proposal: DET - STL (Imagine that...)

[Kaapo di tutti capi]

Lol buch is better then all those guys. Good luck

I was told that Buch was only worth a bottom six forward and a 2nd round pick.

 

[BleedBlue14]

I was told that Buch was only worth a bottom six forward and a 2nd round pick.

In fairness, that was prior to him getting 2 PPG seasons in a row. But that was a horrible trade by the rangers.

 

[Robtom18]

I was told that Buch was only worth a bottom six forward and a 2nd round pick.

Well you are wronf

 

[Blueston]

We always get to find out what “value” are on players, when the player is ultimately traded. We also get to find out how good a prospect may or may not end up being, and if anyone under/over valued them.

The biggest mistake on this site, is those who have no patience for prospects to develop. Especially dmen. We always get to find out though. So we’ll see if I’ve overrated anyone’s “value.”

One thing’s for certain though, over the last 25 years, you’ll have a tough time finding historical trades, where teams trade very many 23 and under, 6’4”+ PMD, drafted in the first 65 picks. They’re just worth way too much if they hit. Even less drafted top 50, 40, 1st round, etc.

That’s where “value” comes from. Teams just don’t trade them for a reason. Because they hold a lot of value.

Which is why blues fans keep pointing to Timo trade. Sharks got lot of value there. Muckha.. is far better prospect than Albert Johnson or wallinder, both in terms of size skill combo and draft pedigree. If blues are going to trade buchy with 2 playoffs, that is framework. Maybe we get slightly less but we ain’t taking 1st, wallinder, and cap dump for 2 years buchy. Ain’t happening. Needs to be much bigger package. Which may well mean that Detroit ain’t a match, but that is ask.

 

[stl76]

Which is why blues fans keep pointing to Timo trade. Sharks got lot of value there. Muckha.. is far better prospect than Albert Johnson or wallinder, both in terms of size skill combo and draft pedigree. If blues are going to trade buchy with 2 playoffs, that is framework. Maybe we get slightly less but we ain’t taking 1st, wallinder, and cap dump for 2 years buchy. Ain’t happening. Needs to be much bigger package. Which may well mean that Detroit ain’t a match, but that is ask.

Exactly.

For the record, Blues fans including myself are not saying it’s a 1 for 1 comparison: the players and situations are somewhat different. But the Meier trade is the best recent comparable trade I can think of to use as a starting point.

If wings fans have another comparable trade they think is a better fit, please share it! Already asked for this info several times and wings fans have been pretty quiet tho…

 

[RedHawkDown]

Which is why blues fans keep pointing to Timo trade. Sharks got lot of value there. Muckha.. is far better prospect than Albert Johnson or wallinder, both in terms of size skill combo and draft pedigree. If blues are going to trade buchy with 2 playoffs, that is framework. Maybe we get slightly less but we ain’t taking 1st, wallinder, and cap dump for 2 years buchy. Ain’t happening. Needs to be much bigger package. Which may well mean that Detroit ain’t a match, but that is ask.

I don’t disagree that a 1st and wallinder is not enough for buch.

But you don’t know wallinder if you think Mukha is a significantly better prospect. For one thing, Wallinder is the exact same size, and is very skilled as well as being a fantastic skater, so that bit is immediately out the window. He was also drafted 12 spots after Mukha so not sure how that’s such a huge difference.

He’s gotten limited ice time in GR this year because of Edvinsson but will be first pairing next year. He is not a worse prospect than Mukha was at time of trade.

 

[Blueston]

I don’t disagree that a 1st and wallinder is not enough for buch.

But you don’t know wallinder if you think Mukha is a significantly better prospect. For one thing, Wallinder is the exact same size, and is very skilled as well as being a fantastic skater, so that bit is immediately out the window. He was also drafted 12 spots after Mukha so not sure how that’s such a huge difference.

He’s gotten limited ice time in GR this year because of Edvinsson but will be first pairing next year. He is not a worse prospect than Mukha was at time of trade.

To be clear I’m not saying he won’t be as good or better, but at the time of trade he was in midst of breakout season, 2.5 years after he was 20 th pick. Your guy is now a further season in and not putting up numbers yet in ahl. So he was picked later and seems further away. He is clearly worth less. im sorry if wings fans can’t see that.

 

[Robtom18]

I was told that Buch was only worth a bottom six forward and a 2nd round pick.

Well armstrong fleeced nyr

 

[Kaapo di tutti capi]

Well armstrong fleeced nyr

For real?

 

[cvaicunas]

I’ve laid out what I think is a recent decently comparable trade, why it was a comparable trade IMO, and what a similar return to that trade would look like from the red wings.

If you have a better recent comparable trade, I’m all ears. Feel free to add something of value to the thread.


Johansson and Okhotyuk are EXTREMELY similar prospects. They were drafted a pick apart in the same draft and have had similar development since IMO. Johansson might be on Detroit as the 6/7 dman next year. Okhotyuk is currently on the sharks roster playing on their 2nd pairing…

This probably has more to do with the state of the franchises', and less so to do with the quality of the prospects.

 

[Detroit Knights]

You have completely missed the point.

If you think Johansson is a significantly better prospect than Okhotyuk then I think you are being a homer, plain and simple. But at least you wouldn’t be alone when it comes to Detroit fans and their prospects in this thread.

When did i say he was better than him?

 

[stl76]

When did i say he was better than him?

The person I quoted previously that you responded to was saying that. Hence you completely missing the point.

 

[Detroit Knights]

The person I quoted was saying that. Hence you completely missing the point.

So if the person you quoted said it, that automatically means I said it....

All i said was or at least insinuating, is just because a rookie is playing on the second pairing of an abysmal team, does not mean that ALJO is worse than him (or better for that matter) because he is playing in the AHL behind all NHL veterans in the NHL lineup.

I am confident that if we didn't have petry, chiarot, holl, maatta, and ghost, then aljo (and edvinsson) would be 100% in the lineup. He was being touted last year by yzerman and the grand rapids GM as progessing better than Simon Edvinsson before aljo had a season ending injury in February. He was also going to be the first call up over edvinsson. Mind you, most red wings fans on this site believe Edvinsson is going to be Lidstrom-lite and/or elite on day one.

So, I don't quite believe that I missed your point. I believe that you don't clearly understand that it would make a lot of sense for a terrible san jose sharks team would have rookies and/or younger players in the lineup playing significant roles to gain experience. I would like to point you to Seider playing top minutes for 82 games in year 1 and Raymond playing (i believe 82 games without looking) 70+ games in the top 6 in his year 1. Both years, detroit was bottom feeders. Same situation.

It is very possible that your player is fantastic and I am not questioning that, but your basis of your argument that I picked apart was you saying he was on the second pairing in the nhl while saying aljo was in the AHL, so obviously yours is better. That is just not the case.

 

[TurgPavs]

To be clear I’m not saying he won’t be as good or better, but at the time of trade he was in midst of breakout season, 2.5 years after he was 20 th pick. Your guy is now a further season in and not putting up numbers yet in ahl. So he was picked later and seems further away. He is clearly worth less. im sorry if wings fans can’t see that.

Based on the Meier Trade, The Blues should want a 1st, (Not sure Detroit 2024 1st is still linked to the Debrincat trade?) Wallinder and Kaser.

 

[stl76]

So if the person you quoted said it, that automatically means I said it....

All i said was or at least insinuating, is just because a rookie is playing on the second pairing of an abysmal team, does not mean that ALJO is worse than him (or better for that matter) because he is playing in the AHL behind all NHL veterans in the NHL lineup.

I am confident that if we didn't have petry, chiarot, holl, maatta, and ghost, then aljo (and edvinsson) would be 100% in the lineup. He was being touted last year by yzerman and the grand rapids GM as progessing better than Simon Edvinsson before aljo had a season ending injury in February. He was also going to be the first call up over edvinsson. Mind you, most red wings fans on this site believe Edvinsson is going to be Lidstrom-lite and/or elite on day one.

So, I don't quite believe that I missed your point. I believe that you don't clearly understand that it would make a lot of sense for a terrible san jose sharks team would have rookies and/or younger players in the lineup playing significant roles to gain experience. I would like to point you to Seider playing top minutes for 82 games in year 1 and Raymond playing (i believe 82 games without looking) 70+ games in the top 6 in his year 1. Both years, detroit was bottom feeders. Same situation.

It is very possible that your player is fantastic and I am not questioning that, but your basis of your argument that I picked apart was you saying he was on the second pairing in the nhl while saying aljo was in the AHL, so obviously yours is better. That is just not the case.

Lol my bias you picked apart? Get a grip man.

The poster I quoted said Okhotyuk was by far the worst player of the defenseman I listed from the Meier trade and from Detroits pipeline. This was false and frankly a homer take IMO.

Have a nice day.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

To be clear I’m not saying he won’t be as good or better, but at the time of trade he was in midst of breakout season, 2.5 years after he was 20 th pick. Your guy is now a further season in and not putting up numbers yet in ahl. So he was picked later and seems further away. He is clearly worth less. im sorry if wings fans can’t see that.

He also has a pretty big SHL resume and awards. You didn’t even know he is a big guy with plus skating. Admit you don’t know the player at all…

I loathe giving up Wallinder as I had a top 15 grade on him in his draft and his skillset still intrigues me massively. He also clicked in an impressive way in Rogle the last two years. Since the Griffins turned it around a few months ago he has been playing a lot better. I don’t think he is a protected guy organizationally though. SHL junior player of the year and leading all defensemen in points in the Champions League are not nothing. I would hope if we are putting him out there it is to get a current top 4 dman that takes his future place on the roster. So like the Hanafin angle and not a winger.

Johansson is very popular with the front office, he does strike me as a solid bottom pairing guy, but maybe he busts out like Walman at some point. He is another guy with plus skating and agility, good positioning. Not nearly as high on him as I am Wallinder but understand one of those two is moving in a trade.

 

[Detroit Knights]

Lol my bias you picked apart? Get a grip man.

The poster I quoted said Okhotyuk was by far the worst player of the defenseman I listed from the Meier trade and from Detroits pipeline. This was false and frankly a homer take IMO.

Have a nice day.

I think it's entirely possibly that you either think I am the same person you were responding to, or think I am also being a homer on aljo.

In case of the latter, I wouldn't say I am a homer. I do think he is great. I don't know much about okhotyuk and don't claim to know him at all. But where I entered the chat, you were insinuating that okhotyuk is better than aljo because he is on the second pairing of an nhl team, whereas aljo would be only the 6th/7th dman of red wings next year. I strongly disagree that you could say your player is better than ours because he is on the second pairing of a completely terrible nhl team that is just adding rookies to get experience.

Now, it could be entirely possible that I misread what you wrote, but the insinuation seemed pretty heavy. If i am incorrect then hand-up i bow out.

In case of the former, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Blueston]

He also has a pretty big SHL resume and awards. You didn’t even know he is a big guy with plus skating. Admit you don’t know the player at all…

I loathe giving up Wallinder as I had a top 15 grade on him in his draft and his skillset still intrigues me massively. He also clicked in an impressive way in Rogle the last two years. Since the Griffins turned it around a few months ago he has been playing a lot better. I don’t think he is a protected guy organizationally though. SHL junior player of the year and leading all defensemen in points in the Champions League are not nothing. I would hope if we are putting him out there it is to get a current top 4 dman that takes his future place on the roster. So like the Hanafin angle and not a winger.

Johansson is very popular with the front office, he does strike me as a solid bottom pairing guy, but maybe he busts out like Walman at some point. He is another guy with plus skating and agility, good positioning. Not nearly as high on him as I am Wallinder but understand one of those two is moving in a trade.

are you trying to be rude or are you simply obtuse? why do you assume folks don't know the player? because they don't worship him? i'm sure just like all the wings recent prospects he will be huge star and lead you back to your rightful place at the top of the list of team's missing the playoffs.

you can keep your 3rd rate prospects. if you want guy like buchy, you can pay one of your top 10 picks (not danielson, we don't want another bottom 6 center). otherwise we can deal him somewhere else or keep him. you want to deal wallinder you are going to get someone like saad, not a 1st line player.

 

[Lampedampe]

Lol my bias you picked apart? Get a grip man.

The poster I quoted said Okhotyuk was by far the worst player of the defenseman I listed from the Meier trade and from Detroits pipeline. This was false and frankly a homer take IMO.

Have a nice day.

Meh reductive take.

If you think Okhotyuk is better than Aljo you've got 0 hockey knowledge. This is frankly just a 0 hockey knowledge take IMO.

 

[norrisnick]

are you trying to be rude or are you simply obtuse? why do you assume folks don't know the player? because they don't worship him? i'm sure just like all the wings recent prospects he will be huge star and lead you back to your rightful place at the top of the list of team's missing the playoffs.

you can keep your 3rd rate prospects. if you want guy like buchy, you can pay one of your top 10 picks (not danielson, we don't want another bottom 6 center). otherwise we can deal him somewhere else or keep him. you want to deal wallinder you are going to get someone like saad, not a 1st line player.

I'd like to just stand up and be counted as a Wing fan that doesn't.

 

[Mike Liut]

I'd like to just stand up and be counted as a Wing fan that doesn't.

Buch would be your best player

 

[The Real Pastafarian]

The only thing interesting about Buchnevich is his first name.

We don't need a left wing. He's had 2 point-per-game seasons...out of 7. And this year he's reverting to the mean. Someone called him defensively elite -- how many Selkes does he have? Well that's a high bar; how many runners-up, or third places for Selke voting does he have?

Zero? Sounds elite AF.

He's a 0.80 PPG winger. Which is good; but not worth multiple high-end defensive prospects and a first. I don't even know how we'd fit him onto the roster. Who are we sending down or waiving, Kostin? Can Buchnevich punch faces?

 

[Robtom18]

The only thing interesting about Buchnevich is his first name.

We don't need a left wing. He's had 2 point-per-game seasons...out of 7. And this year he's reverting to the mean. Someone called him defensively elite -- how many Selkes does he have? Well that's a high bar; how many runners-up, or third places for Selke voting does he have?

Zero? Sounds elite AF.

He's a 0.80 PPG winger. Which is good; but not worth multiple high-end defensive prospects and a first. I don't even know how we'd fit him onto the roster. Who are we sending down or waiving, Kostin? Can Buchnevich punch faces?

Hey your right buchy last two years mean nothibg juat another player. So nothing to see here. Move on.

 

[norrisnick]

Buch would be your best player

Playing what? Fortnite? That's probably Walman...

 

[bringbacktheskate604]

Is Detroit going "all in" now? Why would they want to trade youth for age?

Or is this just for the sake of giving up young assets just to get some media attention and talked about for a few days for funzies? I don't see how DET trading for this player moves the needle in the grand scheme of things. They just lose upcoming youth/assets.

People said the same thing about the nucks when they aquired JT and Hronek. As a nucks fan I say it's worked out pretty well.

People are far to attached to prospects and draft picks, they are assets, some you keep, some you trade, otherwise you become the sabres and rebuild, after rebuild after rebuild. Detroit is absolutely close enough to start using assets to get players entering or in their prime to go with their untouchable pieces. That's the only way to take the next step. The only pieces you don't trade are the tentpoles. In Vancouver's case that was Demko, Quinn, EP. I'm not saying you trade them all but with Seider and Edvinsinn, (sp) any other D should be available for a player that makes you better now and going forward.
Even ASP who's realistically 4+ years from being anywhere near his ceiling, if he even reaches it. Obviously the better the prospect, the better the player coming back,