Dejan Nails It (AKA You're Not Alone TenderRip)

[mpp9]

Pascal Dupuis has absolutely not been playing well. He came back playing at a high level and has slowly tailed off. He's not doing much of anything at this point.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Pascal Dupuis has absolutely not been playing well. He came back playing at a high level and has slowly tailed off. He's not doing much of anything at this point.

Yeah, he's invisible to damn bad.

Considering his contract, how he looked last season before he got injured, how he looks now and his injury it's worrying. Just looking at where he's gotten his points isn't good.

ANA - 4
TOR, DAL, NYI, PHI - 0
DET - 1
NSH - 1
NJD - 2
LAK - 0
BUF - 1
MIN, WPG, BUF - 0

Out of 9 points 4 came from his first game back, 2 came from a blowout and 1 came against Buffalo. 2 were against good teams who weren't having a meltdown. 1 was SH and 3 were on the PP. I'd say that's because the 2nd line is struggling at ES, but Dupuis gets a lot of credit for that particular problem.

 

[Shady Machine]

I mean, if the other winger is Evander Kane then it would still be a good line. But I'd still be looking to add another winger if Comeau was on our 2nd line even if it was with Evander Kane.

Those are unreasonable expectations. We aren't getting 2 top 6 wingers. Bennett will have to be the other one.

 

[wgknestrick]

Pascal Dupuis has absolutely not been playing well. He came back playing at a high level and has slowly tailed off. He's not doing much of anything at this point.

What is Duppers benchmark?

Players can go 2-4 games without scoring and it is totally normal. He still has a very high pt/min this year at 5v5. What is the issue? He missed a pass once, can't convert every scoring chance? I just don't see where all the criticism is coming from because at a high level, he is still very productive.

#2 on team in ES goals/min
#3 on team in ES pts/min

His entire line is getting out shot a little more than our others, but we blame that all on him and not his superstar center? Malkin hasn't been scoring anywhere near his "standards" or even at higher rates than Duppers. That line needs help, but are we sure it's all on Dupuis?

Malkin is about .5pts/min below his last couple year production rates, while Duppers is right at his average. I thought that line was driven by our 9.5mil center and not our 4mil wing.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Yeah, he's invisible to damn bad.

Considering his contract, how he looked last season before he got injured, how he looks now and his injury it's worrying. Just looking at where he's gotten his points isn't good.

ANA - 4
TOR, DAL, NYI, PHI - 0
DET - 1
NSH - 1
NJD - 2
LAK - 0
BUF - 1
MIN, WPG, BUF - 0

Out of 9 points 4 came from his first game back, 2 came from a blowout and 1 came against Buffalo. 2 were against good teams who weren't having a meltdown. 1 was SH and 3 were on the PP. I'd say that's because the 2nd line is struggling at ES, but Dupuis gets a lot of credit for that particular problem.

Dupuis has actually been pretty good for the pens 5 on 5 this year, hes 3rd on the team in points per 60 mins.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...aters&minutes=50&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

 

[Shady Machine]

What is Duppers benchmark?

Players can go 2-4 games without scoring and it is totally normal. He still has a very high pt/min this year at 5v5. What is the issue? He missed a pass once, can't convert every scoring chance? I just don't see where all the criticism is coming from because at a high level, he is still very productive.

#2 on team in ES goals/min
#3 on team in ES pts/min

His entire line is getting out shot a little more than our others, but we blame that all on him and not his superstar center? Malkin hasn't been scoring anywhere near his "standards" or even at higher rates than Duppers. That line needs help, but are we sure it's all on Dupuis?

Malkin is about .5pts/min below his last couple year production rates, while Duppers is right at his average. I thought that line was driven by our 9.5mil center and not our 4mil wing.

You are proving everyone's point on Duper. He will produce near the same no matter what center he plays with. He plays his own game and works really hard. Malkin needs players that compliment him. It's painfully obvious to anyone who has watched those 2 play together that they have negative chemistry. They just play the game a different way. Malkin needs to play better but his wingers have to play the game his way if the line is to be effective. That's no different than any other all world talent.

 

[mpp9]

The guy had 4 pts in his first game back. Hence, why I said he came back strong and then tailed off. It isn't about him not finishing a chance here or missing a pass there. He literally hasn't done anything out there the past several games. He looks slower, less physical and is missing damn near every pass coming his way.

Watch the game. Not stat columns with zero context.

 

[wgknestrick]

You get Malkin going, and his line's problems are solved.

Malkin
Is shooting at 6% at ES. (Pretty bad)
Has lowest ES goals/min of any top 9 forward (only has 1g)
Is 9th in shots/min among our forwards

This isn't all about Duppers. He is about where he's always been on all these things (which is pretty good).

 

[Boocock]

You get Malkin going, and his line's problems are solved.

Malkin
Is shooting at 6% at ES. (Pretty bad)
Has lowest ES goals/min of any top 9 forward (only has 1g)
Is 9th in shots/min among our forwards

This isn't all about Duppers. He is about where he's always been on all these things (which is pretty good).

Bold:In order to get Malkin going, you'll want to put him with different linemates. He can't click with Dupper, and Dupper can't click with him.

Underlined: A detailed look at the stats indicates this is not the case. If anything, Dupuis should be put on a line with Sutter so his production can be maximized. Dupuis and Malkin are both hurting each other right now.

 

[Shady Machine]

You get Malkin going, and his line's problems are solved.

Malkin
Is shooting at 6% at ES. (Pretty bad)
Has lowest ES goals/min of any top 9 forward (only has 1g)
Is 9th in shots/min among our forwards

This isn't all about Duppers. He is about where he's always been on all these things (which is pretty good).

Why do you think his shooting % and shots are so low?

Oh, I forgot you had me blocked. Hopefully someone can re-post this question so you can see it. I would like to understand your view on why this is happening.

 

[IcedCapp]

You get Malkin going, and his line's problems are solved.

Malkin
Is shooting at 6% at ES. (Pretty bad)
Has lowest ES goals/min of any top 9 forward (only has 1g)
Is 9th in shots/min among our forwards

This isn't all about Duppers. He is about where he's always been on all these things (which is pretty good).

I wish I had a good analogy, but Sports are unique.

You can have individual players who are good in a lot of ways individually, but they don't work well with others.

Or, conversely, players who, by themselves, aren't great, but when paired with the right combination of players, they're better.

Pascal Dupuis is who he is. He will be Pascal Dupuis with Crosby, Malkin, Sutter, or Goc.

Evgeni Malkin will not be Evgeni Malkin with Pascal Dupuis. This is a point that's been made many a time.

I'm a big fan of advanced stats, but Pascal Dupuis having good possession numbers means nothing in the scope of that line.

 

[cheesedanish87]

You get Malkin going, and his line's problems are solved.

Malkin
Is shooting at 6% at ES. (Pretty bad)
Has lowest ES goals/min of any top 9 forward (only has 1g)
Is 9th in shots/min among our forwards

This isn't all about Duppers. He is about where he's always been on all these things (which is pretty good).

Its a combination of Geno not playing good enough 5 on 5 and his line mates not working well with him, your right that Geno should be getting some of the blame and its not just his line mates fault for lack of production.

 

[Shady Machine]

Its a combination of Geno not playing good enough 5 on 5 and his line mates not working well with him, your right that Geno should be getting some of the blame and its not just his line mates fault for lack of production.

I generally agree, but what should Malkin be doing better?

 

[cheesedanish87]

I generally agree, but what should Malkin be doing better?

He just needs to produce more, a player like him should never go 12 games without an even strength goal.

Hopefully they call BB up and give him a chance with Geno.

 

[Shady Machine]

He just needs to produce more, a player like him should never go 12 games without an even strength goal.

Hopefully they call BB up and give him a chance with Geno.

How can he produce more? What is Geno doing or not doing right now that is causing him to be virtually non existent 5 on 5?

People can list all the stats of Geno sucking but until they can articulate why it's happening, blaming him for his line's lack of production isn't really fair.

 

[cheesedanish87]

How can he produce more? What is Geno doing or not doing right now that is causing him to be virtually non existent 5 on 5?

People can list all the stats of Geno sucking but until they can articulate why it's happening, blaming him for his line's lack of production isn't really fair.

I don't know what you want me to say, hes just not playing well at even strength, hes not creating anything for himself or his line mates.

The PP has been a different story though, i think hes been the pens best player on the PP.

 

[DegenX]

How can he produce more? What is Geno doing or not doing right now that is causing him to be virtually non existent 5 on 5?

People can list all the stats of Geno sucking but until they can articulate why it's happening, blaming him for his line's lack of production isn't really fair.

Well, clearly when Duper and Comeau are so caught up in their whatever-it-is-that-they-do that they forget Geno is on the ice, Malkin should just skate up and strip them of the puck like he did to Tanger not so long ago

 

[Shady Machine]

I don't know what you want me to say, hes just not playing well at even strength, hes not creating anything for himself or his line mates.

The PP has been a different story though, i think hes been the pens best player on the PP.

I'm trying to get people that are putting the blame on Geno for the line's lack of success to tell me why it's on Geno vs his linemates or just line composition. When you go from Neal and Jokinen (even if the line together wasn't a great fit, both wingers had chemistry with Geno) to Comeau and Dupuis, seeing a signficant drop in your production shouldn't be a surprise.

Nearly every time he gets the puck in transition, he's on an island. Trying to skate through 3 guys to get anything going isn't a consistent recipe for success. Moreover, both of those guys play the game differently than Malkin. They are just on different wave lengths. It's just a really bad line in terms of fit.

Generally speaking, all 3 players are playing well (Duper's playing going downhill over the last 5 games or so has been documented but I don't want to harp on it). The line isn't producing IMO because 1.) Comeau and Dupuis are bottom 6 quality players and 2.) There is no cohesiveness to the line.

Personally, outside of just playing simpler and not forcing things, there isn't anything Geno can do to produce more. His shots are down because he is the only puck distributor on the line. His shooting % is down because the only time he has the puck in order to shoot he is at a crumby shooting angle.

Just saying he needs to produce more doesn't really solve anything.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

How can he produce more? What is Geno doing or not doing right now that is causing him to be virtually non existent 5 on 5?

People can list all the stats of Geno sucking but until they can articulate why it's happening, blaming him for his line's lack of production isn't really fair.

This is the thing. I don't think Geno is playing well individually at ES most of the time and you generally expect more of a player of that caliber, but I also believe that linemates have an effect on a player. His line isn't working, at least try to fix that when he's struggling because it's not revolutionary to think a player gets in a funk when their line isn't working. Dupuis looks like crap and has a history of not working with Malkin, start there.

Or he's injured, that's always a possibility.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I'm trying to get people that are putting the blame on Geno for the line's lack of success to tell me why it's on Geno vs his linemates or just line composition. When you go from Neal and Jokinen (even if the line together wasn't a great fit, both wingers had chemistry with Geno) to Comeau and Dupuis, seeing a signficant drop in your production shouldn't be a surprise.

Nearly every time he gets the puck in transition, he's on an island. Trying to skate through 3 guys to get anything going isn't a consistent recipe for success. Moreover, both of those guys play the game differently than Malkin. They are just on different wave lengths. It's just a really bad line in terms of fit.

Generally speaking, all 3 players are playing well (Duper's playing going downhill over the last 5 games or so has been documented but I don't want to harp on it). The line isn't producing IMO because 1.) Comeau and Dupuis are bottom 6 quality players and 2.) There is no cohesiveness to the line.

Personally, outside of just playing simpler and not forcing things, there isn't anything Geno can do to produce more. His shots are down because he is the only puck distributor on the line. His shooting % is down because the only time he has the puck in order to shoot he is at a crumby shooting angle.

Just saying he needs to produce more doesn't really solve anything.

Like i said in my first post i'm not putting all the blame on Geno, i think its a combination of things, obviously they need to change Geno's line mates.

 

[Shady Machine]

Like i said in my first post i'm not putting all the blame on Geno, i think its a combination of things, obviously they need to change Geno's line mates.

I know you said that and I wasn't trying to call you out. I just was curious if anyone can articulate what Geno needs to do better to produce more. I really don't see it happening outside of an upgrade to his line.

 

[wgknestrick]

I wish I had a good analogy, but Sports are unique.

You can have individual players who are good in a lot of ways individually, but they don't work well with others.

Or, conversely, players who, by themselves, aren't great, but when paired with the right combination of players, they're better.

Pascal Dupuis is who he is. He will be Pascal Dupuis with Crosby, Malkin, Sutter, or Goc.

Evgeni Malkin will not be Evgeni Malkin with Pascal Dupuis. This is a point that's been made many a time.

I'm a big fan of advanced stats, but Pascal Dupuis having good possession numbers means nothing in the scope of that line.

It is still pretty hasty to crumble it up and throw it away at this point. They still aren't playing to their potential, but certainly aren't costing us games. Malkin needs to figure out how to play with those guys' limited skill sets.....not the other way around. Changing for sake of changing won't help much. Duppers and Balakay are who they are, but are our 3rd and 4th best wings. You can't have them changing because you will be left with nothing. Easier to fix 1 player than 2.

Malkin can do just about anything and should be able to help maximize his limited talent around him. Ideally, I think Malkin just needs to shoot and attack more instead of doing his galloping lap around the net looking for an open Neal. Malkin should be scoring more ES points than his wingers, but he isn't. That tells me he needs to get more involved at getting pucks on net. His wingers are able to provide ES scoring, why isn't Malkin?

 

[Ugene Magic]

I know you said that and I wasn't trying to call you out. I just was curious if anyone can articulate what Geno needs to do better to produce more. I really don't see it happening outside of an upgrade to his line.

Geno isn't a guy who goes relentless like Sid can. Geno for some reason or another can't/won't step up without having those top 6 players, save the cup run, he never has success with guys who are not typically top six players, but when he raises his level of play he did prove he could.

Is he pouting again, just going through the motions...? He did lose his bestest of wingers in, Neal.

I hate the fact these two can't be in God mode at the same time.

 

[Shady Machine]

Geno isn't a guy who goes relentless like Sid can. Geno for some reason or another can't/won't step up without having those top 6 players, save the cup run, he never has success with guys who are not typically top six players, but when he raises his level of play he did prove he could.

Is he pouting again, just going through the motions...? He did lose his bestest of wingers in, Neal.

I hate the fact these two can't be in God mode at the same time.

It sounds like you are making this up. He has played with just as much ass in his career as Sid and generally performed very well. Like, 2 time Art Ross, MVP, and Conne Smythe winner well.

 

[billybudd]

Dupuis has actually been pretty good for the pens 5 on 5 this year, hes 3rd on the team in points per 60 mins.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...aters&minutes=50&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

On balance, yes. Last 3 he's been awful.

But more concerning than that is the visible lack of chemistry he's shown with Malkin. It's worth giving a pair ten or so to feel each other out, but that's passed and it's not going that direction. Second line's possession and production is actually dropping.

Whether Dupuis is "a third liner" or "a second liner" is, and always was, the wrong question.

The right question is "will goal differential and zone time for his line be higher with someone else in his position?" In years past, with Sid, with what we had available to us or what was available at the deadline (Kesler being the SOLE exception), the answer to that question was a resounding "no" (have to sort to line stats).

This year, with Geno, it's more up in the air. They're at 52 CF% together and dropping (2 weeks ago, it was ~60%). I'm not convinced there's a player on the roster who can do better than that, but I also don't know that the second lines differentials don't improve with Spaling, for example. The results are not currently so great that it isn't worth trying.

It is still pretty hasty to crumble it up and throw it away at this point. They still aren't playing to their potential, but certainly aren't costing us games. Malkin needs to figure out how to play with those guys' limited skill sets.....not the other way around. Changing for sake of changing won't help much. Duppers and Balakay are who they are, but are our 3rd and 4th best wings. You can't have them changing because you will be left with nothing. Easier to fix 1 player than 2.

Malkin can do just about anything and should be able to help maximize his limited talent around him. Ideally, I think Malkin just needs to shoot and attack more instead of doing his galloping lap around the net looking for an open Neal. Malkin should be scoring more ES points than his wingers, but he isn't. That tells me he needs to get more involved at getting pucks on net. His wingers are able to provide ES scoring, why isn't Malkin?

The bolded is probably a fair point. There may be nobody to work a give and go with, but what there is is more space high in the slot, most of the time, as those two are hovering below the dots occupying people. You would think a player like Malkin would be able to take advantage of that.