Dejan Nails It (AKA You're Not Alone TenderRip)

[KIRK]

Compliments of Dejan, who offers what admittedly is speculation about the 'buy-in' to date from Sid and Geno:

http://dkonpittsburghsports.com/2014/11/07/friday-insider-letangs-shot-priority-gm/

His take on Geno, the second line, and how Geno's point production on the PP is masking what could be an ugly situation is in line with what TR, RowdyRoddyBurkie, myself, and a few others have said:

So Crosby is fine. And Malkin, as always, is more complicated.

It’s very easy to see he’s working fine within the system as a center of late, which shouldn’t surprise anyone if only because there’s no aspect of hockey he loves more than winding back and bolting up ice with a burst of speed. Johnston might as well have tailored this strategy to Malkin.

But the second line’s five-on-five production has been virtually nonexistent, and that’s in part because Blake Comeau has no business on anyone’s top six, because Pascal Dupuis hasn’t meshed with Malkin at all and because Malkin, rather than engaging in his usual cycle in the attacking zone, keeps pulling up along the boards and looking for trailers. Presumably Sergei Gonchar.

I’m not going to try to read Malkin’s mood off the ice, if only because his moods are always so readily evident on the ice. It’s more important, anyway. And in this case, it’s evident right now that it’s a very good thing he’s been prolific on the power play.

I know a lot of people are happy that Comeau is producing better than expected and that Dupuis looks like he hasn't missed a beat. Neither mitigates the fact that the second line is a cluster**** right now. Comeau doesn't have the talent to be there. Dupuis is oil to Malkin's water. And, Malkin is playing like a guy who trusts neither of them to get him the puck and to be in position to take the puck from them (in good part justifiable, but Malkin's traditional reaction of over-thinking things and not attacking makes an awful situation worse).

Questions for discussion:

1. Is Dejan right about the second line, in terms of its production and how the pieces look?

2. What can be done now by the coaches to alleviate the situation short term?

3. What does JR need to do long term to fix it?

For my part, I think Dejan is right, the coaches need to keep the KCH line, put Dupuis with Sutter and then construct the second and third lines from there, and then JR needs to add either an impact forward (a la Kane/ROR) or two lesser forwards (a la McGinn/Stewart/Glencross, etc).

NOTE TO MODS: I put this into its own thread since its one of the few important subject matter in this early season and since it kind of transcends the salary cap thread (which really only addresses question three) or the pittsburgh sports gibberish thread (which at this point addresses more the trolls in the sports media rather than a series addressing of the subject like that from Dejan). That said, if you think it's more properly merged into an existing thread, then please do so.

Click to read more...

 

[MtlPenFan]

You still see the problem though?

In his eyes Dupuis is a top six winger that just doesn't "mesh" with Malkin. In other words, it's not that DK thinks that Dupuis, like Comeau, doesn't belong on anyone's top six, but that he just doesn't belong on Malkin's.

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but we've been going at this for years. The fans, the media have all bought in to Dupuis being a top six winger. As long as this organization, regardless of the regime change sees that player as part if the solution and not part of the problem, the Penguins will continue to be bridesmaids no matter what system they run.

 

[hoyster]

KCH
Beau-Malkin-Duper
Downie-Sutter-Spaling

Hopefully Beau-Malkin is magic.

That's my short-term answer. Then look for a top 6 forward and go with:
Kunitz/top 6-Crosby-Horny
Kunitz/top 6-Malkin-Beau

 

[KIRK]

You still see the problem though?

In his eyes Dupuis is a top six winger that just doesn't "mesh" with Malkin. In other words, it's not that DK thinks that Dupuis, like Comeau, doesn't belong on anyone's top six, but that he just doesn't belong on Malkin's.

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but we've been going at this for years. The fans, the media have all bought in to Dupuis being a top six winger. As long as this organization, regardless of the regime change sees that player as part if the solution and not part of the problem, the Penguins will continue to be bridesmaids no matter what system they run.

Interesting. I didn't get THAT from Dejan. That said, I do agree with what you're saying about the widespread perception that Dupuis is a top six guy, and for my part I in no way meant to endorse an absurd idea like that.

For my part, I've never seen Dupuis as a top six winger. I've seen him kind of being like Sykora (not the Sykora from his prime, but the Sykora that the Pens had). That's a guy who isn't really a top six guy but is border line passable in the top six with the right mesh (e.g., Dupuis 'meshes' with Sid in the same way Sykora, at that late stage in his career 'meshed' with Geno.

But, for the Pens to truly be a cup contender, IMO JR needs to add two guys to the top six and the bottom six needs to include a Dupuis-Sutter-Bennett third line (until Bennett shows he can stay healthy).

KCH
Beau-Malkin-Duper
Downie-Sutter-Spaling

Hopefully Beau-Malkin is magic.

That's my short-term answer. Then look for a top 6 forward and go with:
Kunitz/top 6-Crosby-Horny
Kunitz/top 6-Malkin-Beau

MTL, I suppose that this is what you mean by how many people think the solution to Malkin and Dupuis being oil and water is to continue to send him out with Malkin, even though a lesser player might 'mesh' better with Malkin, thereby enabling Malkin to get to his game.

The other thing that worries me is this gifting a top six spot to Bennett. Even if he's got the talent to play there, I don't see how you can trust his staying healthy. I'd much rather make him work for his spot in the top six and the the first guy up if someone gets hurt. Kunitz-Malkin-Beau could be ok, but that's one hangnail from Dupuis being back in the top six and Craig Adams being back in the starting lineup.

 

[Michael8771*]

Interesting. I didn't get THAT from Dejan. That said, I do agree with what you're saying about the widespread perception that Dupuis is a top six guy, and for my part I in no way meant to endorse an absurd idea like that.

For my part, I've never seen Dupuis as a top six winger. I've seen him kind of being like Sykora (not the Sykora from his prime, but the Sykora that the Pens had). That's a guy who isn't really a top six guy but is border line passable in the top six with the right mesh (e.g., Dupuis 'meshes' with Sid in the same way Sykora, at that late stage in his career 'meshed' with Geno.

But, for the Pens to truly be a cup contender, IMO JR needs to add two guys to the top six and the bottom six needs to include a Dupuis-Sutter-Bennett third line (until Bennett shows he can stay healthy).

The other thing that worries me is this gifting a top six spot to Bennett. Even if he's got the talent to play there, I don't see how you can trust his staying healthy. I'd much rather make him work for his spot in the top six and the the first guy up if someone gets hurt. Kunitz-Malkin-Beau could be ok, but that's one hangnail from Dupuis being back in the top six and Craig Adams being back in the starting lineup.

I've been touting this idea since the season started. I'd love that third line, but more importantly Geno (relatively speaking) is on an island (as far as having quality wings to play with). To me this should have been remedied long ago. It's a shame a generational talent such as he is saddled with these two. Dupers a fine third liner and I have no issue with Comeau whatsoever in the bottom six. But for BOTH to have this much ice time in the top six IMO is an epic fail within the organization. Either get Geno help or put Kunitz on his wing and balance out the top six until a trade is made.

 

[Gurglesons]

Dupuis has been the worst player on our team this year. But lets blame the Russian who has a fourth liner on his other side.

 

[KIRK]

Dupuis has been the worst player on our team this year. But lets blame the Russian who has a fourth liner on his other side.

The fourth liner is less of a detriment to the Russian than Dupuis is, although I'm sure a majority of people, especially in the Pittsburgh media, won't see it that way.

I was just impressed that someone in the media FINALLY said what a cluster**** the second line is and suggested that a good part of it comes from Dupuis and Malkin being oil and water (again, with MTL's concern about the implications of the word 'mesh' duly noted).

 

[Michael8771*]

Dupuis has been the worst player on our team this year. But lets blame the Russian who has a fourth liner on his other side.

That's simply not true. Dupuis has been fine relative to his abilities. The problem is he's been overextended in his role because of our inability to add top six quality players. That's on the GM.

 

[KIRK]

That's simply not true. Dupuis has been fine relative to his abilities. The problem is he's been overextended in his role because of our inability to add top six quality players. That's on the GM.

How he's used is on the coach too.

Look, Malkin's got a bad lot. But, you know that you can look at him early in a game and see if he's going. If he isn't, then juggle the lines a little. Slide him out with Goc and (god help me) Adams. It's not ideal, obviously, but it's also on Johnston to mix it up a little.

Here's another question: Aside from the end of the game when the Pens were trailing, has Geno even taken a 5 on 5 shift with Sid all season? I don't remember even one. I'd understand if KCH were a dominant line when it came to actually producing ES goals, but it's really not, not like Whoever-Getzlaf-Perry or the 70's Line. But, when you see Sid getting suffocated or Kunitz dogging it WHILE Geno is dying, I don't see the harm in giving them a random shift together with a worker like Horny.

 

[Malkin112*]

I have been saying this couple of weeks now.

Pens will not be contender if
1. both Kunitz and Dupuis are in the top-6
2. Letang is playing over 26min/g

 

[hoyster]

MTL, I suppose that this is what you mean by how many people think the solution to Malkin and Dupuis being oil and water is to continue to send him out with Malkin, even though a lesser player might 'mesh' better with Malkin, thereby enabling Malkin to get to his game.

The other thing that worries me is this gifting a top six spot to Bennett. Even if he's got the talent to play there, I don't see how you can trust his staying healthy. I'd much rather make him work for his spot in the top six and the the first guy up if someone gets hurt. Kunitz-Malkin-Beau could be ok, but that's one hangnail from Dupuis being back in the top six and Craig Adams being back in the starting lineup.

The first line-up was with the players we already have. We have seen Dupuis being a good complementary player with Sid and Kunitz but right now he's used as a go-to winger when he plays with Geno and Comeau. If, and it's a big if, Beau and Malkin can get some chemistry going Duper might as well be a good complementary player again until we acquire another top6 winger.

As for the second line-up, I did point out that we need to acquire another top 6 wing which would mean that Duper plays in the 3rd line or is involved in the trade. As for now we have two proven top 6 winger in Kunitz and Horny and of course we'd all like to get two more. But I'd rather trust Beau and his health in the top 6 role rather than go out and trade for a guy like Semin and hope that he is close to the player he once was. And if Beau is injured again between now and trade deadline then we absolutely need to make a trade. And IMO Beau earned a spot in the top6 at the training camp.

But, for the Pens to truly be a cup contender, IMO JR needs to add two guys to the top six and the bottom six needs to include a Dupuis-Sutter-Bennett third line (until Bennett shows he can stay healthy).

How do you see us acquiring two top 6 players without trading any of those guys or destroying our D?

 

[KIRK]

The first line-up was with the players we already have. We have seen Dupuis being a good complementary player with Sid and Kunitz but right now he's used as a go-to winger when he plays with Geno and Comeau. If, and it's a big if, Beau and Malkin can get some chemistry going Duper might as well be a good complementary player again until we acquire another top6 winger.

As for the second line-up, I did point out that we need to acquire another top 6 wing which would mean that Duper plays in the 3rd line or is involved in the trade. As for now we have two proven top 6 winger in Kunitz and Horny and of course we'd all like to get two more. But I'd rather trust Beau and his health in the top 6 role rather than go out and trade for a guy like Semin and hope that he is close to the player he once was. And if Beau is injured again between now and trade deadline then we absolutely need to make a trade. And IMO Beau earned a spot in the top6 at the training camp.

On point one, I've got more faith-- infinitely more faith-- in Beau meshing with Malkin than I do in Dupuis being a good complement in that case. Some guys just don't work well together. That's the case with Malkin and Dupuis . . . it's not like Dupuis was a 'good complement' when he played with Malkin and Fedotenko in 2009-2010 (Malkin had like 10 ES goals in about 60 or so games with those two).

On point two, I appreciate that you see Beau, over Dupuis, as the more logical top six candidate after a trade for one guy. Problems are that (a) I'm not sure the coaches see it similarly and (b) even if they do, we're one Beau Bennett hangnail from Dupuis back in the top six.

How do you see us acquiring two top 6 players without trading any of those guys or destroying our D?

What do you consider 'destroying our D'? I've got Maatta, Despres, and Borts as no brainers. Ehrhoff has a NTC. So, that leaves two spots . . . Letang, Martin, Scuds. Conventional wisdom is that Letang stays, as does Scuds. Maybe a guy like Harrington or even Pouliot later in the year really steps up and puts someone on the bench, but I doubt it. That makes Martin odd man out. Seems to me we can move Martin and other secondary assets (of the 2nd, Dumoulin, Bleuger ilk) to add two bodies of Glencross/Stewart/Stafford/Tlusty caliber. So, unless you consider moving Martin destroying our D, it's pretty easy to make two acquisitions both in terms of the assets required AND under the cap. Plus, in this scenario, if one of those guys with warts isn't cutting it, your first guy who can play himself into the top six is Beau).

 

[Michael8771*]

How he's used is on the coach too.

Look, Malkin's got a bad lot. But, you know that you can look at him early in a game and see if he's going. If he isn't, then juggle the lines a little. Slide him out with Goc and (god help me) Adams. It's not ideal, obviously, but it's also on Johnston to mix it up a little.

Here's another question: Aside from the end of the game when the Pens were trailing, has Geno even taken a 5 on 5 shift with Sid all season? I don't remember even one. I'd understand if KCH were a dominant line when it came to actually producing ES goals, but it's really not, not like Whoever-Getzlaf-Perry or the 70's Line. But, when you see Sid getting suffocated or Kunitz dogging it WHILE Geno is dying, I don't see the harm in giving them a random shift together with a worker like Horny.

See, there's just no legitimate options for Geno. Playing him on the odd shift with Goc and Adams isn't gonna help either. I see what you're saying, but until we add someone, Geno's rather screwed! If it were up to me I'd play Kunitz with Geno for the time being. At least Duper works better with Sid. Still not ideal, but that's a better configuartion than the current one. And When BB comes back I'd stick Downie on Geno's line with Kunitz. And Drop Comeau down to the 4th line.

 

[Michael8771*]

Kunitz-Geno-Downie

Duper-Sid-Horny

Spaling-Sutter-BB

Adams-Goc-Comeau

I'd try that until a trade is made, or until it's apparent those combos don't work. But at least (in theory anyhow) it's somewhat balanced.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Compliments of Dejan, who offers what admittedly is speculation about the 'buy-in' to date from Sid and Geno:

http://dkonpittsburghsports.com/2014/11/07/friday-insider-letangs-shot-priority-gm/

His take on Geno, the second line, and how Geno's point production on the PP is masking what could be an ugly situation is in line with what TR, RowdyRoddyBurkie, myself, and a few others have said:

So Crosby is fine. And Malkin, as always, is more complicated.

It’s very easy to see he’s working fine within the system as a center of late, which shouldn’t surprise anyone if only because there’s no aspect of hockey he loves more than winding back and bolting up ice with a burst of speed. Johnston might as well have tailored this strategy to Malkin.

But the second line’s five-on-five production has been virtually nonexistent, and that’s in part because Blake Comeau has no business on anyone’s top six, because Pascal Dupuis hasn’t meshed with Malkin at all and because Malkin, rather than engaging in his usual cycle in the attacking zone, keeps pulling up along the boards and looking for trailers. Presumably Sergei Gonchar.

I’m not going to try to read Malkin’s mood off the ice, if only because his moods are always so readily evident on the ice. It’s more important, anyway. And in this case, it’s evident right now that it’s a very good thing he’s been prolific on the power play.

I know a lot of people are happy that Comeau is producing better than expected and that Dupuis looks like he hasn't missed a beat. Neither mitigates the fact that the second line is a cluster**** right now. Comeau doesn't have the talent to be there. Dupuis is oil to Malkin's water. And, Malkin is playing like a guy who trusts neither of them to get him the puck and to be in position to take the puck from them (in good part justifiable, but Malkin's traditional reaction of over-thinking things and not attacking makes an awful situation worse).

Questions for discussion:

1. Is Dejan right about the second line, in terms of its production and how the pieces look?

2. What can be done now by the coaches to alleviate the situation short term?

3. What does JR need to do long term to fix it?

For my part, I think Dejan is right, the coaches need to keep the KCH line, put Dupuis with Sutter and then construct the second and third lines from there, and then JR needs to add either an impact forward (a la Kane/ROR) or two lesser forwards (a la McGinn/Stewart/Glencross, etc).

NOTE TO MODS: I put this into its own thread since its one of the few important subject matter in this early season and since it kind of transcends the salary cap thread (which really only addresses question three) or the pittsburgh sports gibberish thread (which at this point addresses more the trolls in the sports media rather than a series addressing of the subject like that from Dejan). That said, if you think it's more properly merged into an existing thread, then please do so.

Many of us have been calling this second line a failure since before they played their first game. Good to see respectable media like Dejan take notice.

That said, I see Dupuis as an even bigger problem with Malkin than Comeau has been. Comeau at least wrecks guys and forces turnovers that way. Ideally, neither are in the top 6 for long.

 

[SidDidNothingWrong]

For the first time in awhile, I am going to defer to the knowledge of the coaches. Johnston has to be noticing this and either does not want to mess with the chemistry of the other lines or is waiting for Bennett.

 

[WVP]

Literally everyone knows we are a winger (or two) short. What's new here?

 

[Shrimper]

When Beau is back, which shouldn't be too long, this should hopefully be fixed. Beau is on a conditioning stint and potted an assist last night. Hopefully, he'll be back for next weekend's back to back.

 

[WayneSid9987]

K-C-H
Bennett-Geno-Downie
Spaling/Dupuis-Sutter-Comeau
Dupuis/Spaling-Goc-Adams

Thats what i'd run. Team needs a top 6 winger add at minimum.

 

[Ugene Magic]

The only thing I will state, and I know some will also state he has played with him in the past, but....even if you bring in a forward it will take time for that player and Geno to adjust to one another. 12 games is very small sample to guage this even if you end up being right in the end. Another 8/10 games then things will be more pronounced and about the time there should be a move, mabe a tad bit longer, and even then, the process will start over because, what if that guy brought in isn't working with him either after 20/25 games?

Will you take the first 12 games to call for adjustments again with the new player brought in?

They'll still have the actual deadline to adjust, but what if they don't want to pay the high prices?

The end point here is, I don't think they are gonna bring in a high profile player. Nothing the like of a Neal. So...the gamble is will the guy work? Then again, maybe they surprise and bring in a high impact player.

I think that is what some are riding all their hopes on of happening. They'd probably have an easier time cloning Hornqvist.

For now though, until they make that trade, I can wait for that due process. It' is a concern, just not one to make a panick trade.

 

[WayneSid9987]

And Dejean is right for the most part but i'd add that Dupuis/Comeau/Downie/Spaling, all of these guys SHOULD be bottom 6 players if this team is to contend this year.

Short term, i would run something like my lines above^.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

That's simply not true. Dupuis has been fine relative to his abilities. The problem is he's been overextended in his role because of our inability to add top six quality players. That's on the GM.

Dupuis is playing more than ok, but he just doesn't fit with Malkin - DK is right on that one, IMO. Our problem is mainly that we have too many third wheels and no "Neal".

I love Hornqvist, but, as someone else have said in another discussion (I forgot who, sorry), he is another "third wheel type". He doesn't have the hands or creativity to take coverage away from Sid or Geno. Kunitz is the same way and so is Dupuis. Sid will be just fine with "3rd wheels" in the regular season, but in the POs, it will get much tougher.

So, basically, we have three fine top 6 wingers (and yes, Dupuis, even if not ideal in that position, is a fine top 6 winger. If we still had a guy like Hossa, Dupuis would be a perfect compliment to him and Sid), but no star winger.

Ideally Beau will show that he can be a star winger (finger crossed) and we will add another piece. But that's ideally because it is hard to project Beau to do anything since he misses so many games. He does however have the skills and creativity needed for the job.

Bennett/Kunitz - Crosby - Hornqvist/Bennett
Kunitz/new guy - Malkin - new guy/Bennett
Dupuis - Sutter - Downie/Comeau
Spalling - Goc - Downie/Comeau

That would be my ideal lineup. Now, who would be that new guy and who do we trade for him? That's the question. Considering that we have more than enough third wheels, a guy like Stewart is out of the question (now that Kulemin has signed somewhere else long term, he seems to be the new Kulemin and I don't like that). Of course, ideally, we could go after guys like Kane and Eberle, but asset-wise and cap-wise that might not be realistic. I guess there would be rental options like Guerin once was and a slew of other guys I don't think about right now.

But yeah, even if I like Dupuis as a player and think he is a top-6 caliber player, I can see that it isn't working with Malkin and that, if we won't to be a favourite, he has to play with Sutter with whom he has shown even better chemistry than with Sid.

 

[Ogrezilla]

How is any of this new? We all know we need at least 1 top 6 wing and for Bennett to stick in the top 6.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

How is any of this new? We all know we need at least 1 top 6 wing and for Bennett to stick in the top 6.

Well, pretty much every discussion on this board revolves around Dupuis not belonging on the second line or Fleury being a ****** goalie, so the "what's new" comment could pretty much be applied to every thread.

At least, we have finally moved away from the "GOD I HATE BYLSMA" phase of the board haha.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Well, pretty much every discussion on this board revolves around Dupuis not belonging on the second line or Fleury being a ****** goalie, so the "what's new" comment could pretty much be applied to every thread.

At least, we have finally moved away from the "GOD I HATE BYLSMA" phase of the board haha.

but now we got a brand new thread to tell us exactly the same thing