David Desharnais - The 3rd line edition

[LyricalLyricist]

Did you feel that way after 2013? I doubt you did.

But then we relegated him to role of checker and ONLY checker.

I don't see how he's a 2nd line center... He's been given EVERY opportunity and has trouble cracking 50 points and 20 goals. I don't see how anyone could seriously argue that he's a better option on for offense than ANY of our other three centers.

After 2013 I didn't feel Eller was a top 6 player. I feel he's like Zubrus and Sekac is like Bulis while people assume they are more than what they are.

I don't know what the comparison for DD is but I doubt it would be someone who had a long career like Zubrus. So for what its worth I see Eller as a longer NHL talent.

 

[Kriss E]

You kill me because I feel bad not responding but I'll keep it concise.

I showed a plethora of games where Eller was paired with an offensive talent or someone who was a 'top 6' forward for us. There was a significant chunk where he didn't have Bourque+Briere the whole time. He had Galchenyuk a lot, he had Gallagher a lot, he played with Gionta as well, etc...

This list does not include games 1-29 where he had EGG for the majority:

Game 30-31, Galchenyuk-Eller-Briere.
Game 32-33, EGG
Game 34, Moen-Eller-Gallagher
Game 39-40, Galchenyuk-Eller-Briere
Game 41-42, Galchenyuk-Eller-Prust
Game 43-44, Galchenyuk-Eller-Bourque
Game 47, Pacioretty-Eller-Gallagher
Game 48-52, Eller-Plekanec-Gionta
Game 60, 65-66, Galchenyuk-Eller-Bourque
Game 67, Galchenyuk-Eller-Briere
Game 68, EGG
Game 69-71, Galchenyuk-Eller-Gionta
Game 76, EGG
Game 77-78, Eller-Briere-Gionta
Game 79, Bourque-Eller-Gionta

Wait, do you think this somehow works against Eller?
Wow, you mean he wasn't able to keep his production going at a decent rate despite being jerked around almost literally on a different line from game to game??
Eller had more consistency in his lines during the first half, where he put up 19pts.
Then, over the 22 games you listed at the half way point of the season, he played on 11 different lines??? This is not mentioning the other lines where he actually DID play with just scrubs??
Can you tell me who he played with in the games you left out?
To be sure, that's Game #45-46-53-54-55-56-57-58-59-61-62-63-64-72-73-74-75-80-81-82. Now, I know he was scratched, I just don't remember which game he missed.
Maybe you should add those in just so we can see how many different line combinations Eller actually played on during the second part of the season.

Also, care to tell me the ice time, deployment, roles, his line had?
How are those things not even mentioned in the slightest when discussing production?
At game 44, Galchenyuk got injured. Eller had 20pts in 43gp at that point. After that injury, Eller got to center top line material ONCE over a 16 game stretch. He got to play wing though for about 5 games, but as we all know, he just doesn't really play well on the wing. The 10 other games though, he played with scrubs.
Then Galchenyuk came back from injury, played one game with Eller and Bourque. Eller went on another 4 game stretch playing with scrubs.
So again, how do you even think this is helping your case is beyond me.

I did not put Bourque and Briere as BOTH his linemates at any point on this list. Gionta was good enough for Plekanec was he not? Gionta also had great ES numbers.

Plekanec was used as a checking line center that year. He was getting as little offensive zone starts as your typical shutdown centers. He also spent a lot of time with guys like Bourque, Briere, Gionta, who just weren't top 6 guys anymore.
But you're also talking about veterans. Eller was a youngster coming off a successful season, had a good start, then things got worse and worse.
Not everyone bounces back the same and especially not when you're move around as often as Eller was.

How this equates to "He got scrap all year!" is beyond me.

I never said he got scrap all year did I? I said he stopped producing when he was placed with scrubs, and that's true.
14 of the 20 games he played after losing Galchenyuk as a winger were played with scrubs. 5 of the 20 games, he played on the wings where he's not suited to play. That obviously impacted him and it kept going downhill from there.

Did he get the same thing as Plekanec and/or Desharnais? Of course not. We agree there but the narrative that he was thrown to the dirt is mind boggling.

There's nothing mindboggling. Maybe you should add the list of lines he played with during the other half of the second part of the season you left out.

The guy had 6 points in first games of the season and 20 the next 74. In those 74 he played with EGG, he played with Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Gionta, etc... and did not produce.

Right, and he had 20pts in first 43gp. After that, he switched lines almost every second game for the remainder of the season, and at least half the time it was with scrubs.

He got PP the first 20-30 games, plenty. He stopped getting it afterwards but even with that time he wasn't doing well.

Nobody has been doing well on the PP for two years.

As for 'splitting EGG line up to help DD'

HE WAS SPLIT UP FROM EGG AFTER GAME 3 TO PLAY ON PACIORETTY'S LINE. HE GOT PROMOTED.

Suddenly playing with Pacioretty is a demotion for Eller? It lasted 2 games with max and then he was back on EGG. Please don't make a big deal about this, he got bumped to 1st line and his TOI increased.

Who called it a demotion?
The EGG line was the hottest. It was split. Are you going to deny the possibility that splitting up a hot line can cause it to lose some of its magic even if it was just a one week?
Eller scored one goal in 2gp with Patches.
Fact remains, the EGG line was split before any hint that it had gone cold, despite what some like to argue here. Was just clarifying this point preemptively.

I honestly don't care that much anymore. I shouldn't have bothered replying in this thread at all. It's always the same stuff anyway. We've had this discussion and I've watched him play and I think he's a fringe top 6er at best.

I don't really care either buddy, and I agree, he's a 3rd center. I just disagree with this idea that DD is somehow this indisputable better option.

I think DD is a 2nd liner who has his own issues, namely that he refuses to shoot. This hurts his ability to keep players honest and makes him predictable. As such, despite his talent level he cannot produce when teams can scout him and keenly prepare for him. He had several opportunities to rise up in the playoffs but kept the same game which hasn't been working.

I don't think DD is a 2nd liner. Maybe he could have been, but we didn't develop him properly imo. We turned him into a pass dispenser to Pacioretty, that's it.

In the new NHL however it's painfully obvious that most teams have incredible center depth and while these guys can fill in top 6 they shouldn't be there on a competitive team.

We've acquired assets, our young players are making the team(DLR, Beaulieu, Pateryn this year alone) and it's time to turn the leaf, make a trade to acquire quality and go with Eller as our #3 long term and DD elsewhere.

Well, you know what I think about Galchenyuk. Had management done things right imo, this thread likely wouldn't even exist. How great would that be?

 

[Nynja*]

Pass dispenser...oh man this has gif potential:
make a pez dispenser with daveys face just feeding pucks to patch lol

 

[realtalk11]

Made a promise to myself. If DD is still with the habs in september, I won't be watching the habs on TV anymore. Only radio.

Will be better for my sanity

 

[JLP]

^ Yeah hate to admit it but it has become painful to watch the ongoing dd treatment these last years. At a time when we have some really good pieces in the lineup why handicap the team with a subpar midget centre? Makes no sense except affirmative action to increase the franco quotient. If bergy decides to continue this experiment yet another year I may switch to radio myself.

 

[Capitaine Subban*]

^ Yeah hate to admit it but it has become painful to watch the ongoing dd treatment these last years. At a time when we have some really good pieces in the lineup why handicap the team with a subpar midget centre? Makes no sense except affirmative action to increase the franco quotient. If bergy decides to continue this experiment yet another year I may switch to radio myself.

Yeah you are right, it is shameful.

 

[optimus2861]

The key when evaluating DD are secondary assists. Many of his points are on plays where he simply passes it to someone who makes a good hockey play to setup a goal. I don't feel like looking up the stat, but if you took out secondary assists from his season (and career) total, you'd be even less impressed with him overall.

The secondary-assist thing isn't true. I think someone looked it up over the last two years and DD's split between primary & secondary assists was fairly average.

The issue with DD's assists isn't whether they're primary or secondary. It's how many of them he gets by essentially doing nothing other than making one basic pass. One example from a game earlier this year, when Sekac was still here, was a long shift in the opponent's end with Sekac, Galchenyuk, Subban, and I think Markov engaging in a long cycle along the boards, out to the blueline, back in, etc (I think the line was mid-change and they just stayed out there, as it was an odd combination of players).

This went on for 10 to 20 seconds. May even have been 30. Desharnais never once touched the puck during this cycle. He was never even in a position to help out during that entire cycle. The other four players, particularly Sekac, AG, and PK, did terrific work keeping that cycle going and maintaining possession of the puck. Then Sekac finally threw the puck to Davey who had glided down behind the net. Davey had the puck on his stick for about a second, threw it out front to Galchenyuk (inaccurately so IIRC), who got a fortuitous bounce off a defender's skate for the goal.

tl;dr version: Davey glided uselessly through the zone for the entire play while his teammates did all the hard work, touched the puck once, got an assist.

It's those kind of stinking assists that pad Davey's point totals, and he gets them all the freaking time because Therrien can never resist throwing him out there for an offensive zone draw. Davey also typically gets off the ice shortly after possession is lost so he doesn't have to do defensive work.

He is a brutally limited, mediocre player who is blessed with an NHL coach who loves him as a pet. He'll never make it so good on an NHL roster again, and despite that, he floats anyway, maybe knowing that the GM is buddy-buddy with the coach, so the coach is at minimum risk of being fired, ergo his place on the roster is secure.

I genuinely cannot comprehend how anybody can watch David Desharnais play a game and conclude anything other than this.

 

[The Nightman]

Desharnais is a legit #2 center

This was said.

 

[Monctonscout]

This was said.

...and your point is?

The numbers put him as a low end #1 to high end #2 center. For a top 6 forward, that's a big part of the job description. I don't know any high end top 6 guys that are there for their defense only.

 

[Sorinth]

He got PP the first 20-30 games, plenty. He stopped getting it afterwards but even with that time he wasn't doing well.

I can't find the exact PP% values and don't feel like adding it up manually but in the first 21 games of that season when Eller was getting regular PP time we scored 17 PPG. In the 61 games that followed we scored 31. So we went from getting 0.8 goals per game on the PP to 0.5.

After 2013 I didn't feel Eller was a top 6 player. I feel he's like Zubrus and Sekac is like Bulis while people assume they are more than what they are.

I don't know what the comparison for DD is but I doubt it would be someone who had a long career like Zubrus. So for what its worth I see Eller as a longer NHL talent.

Yet you scoff at the notion that Eller could hit 60 points even though Zubrus did it, and in his prime (25-28) he averaged 58 points a season.

But honestly if you really believed after putting up 30 points in 46 games from the 3rd line with no PP time that Eller was nothing more than a 3rd liner then it's pretty clear you had made up your mind about him and nothing he does can change it.

 

[Monctonscout]

The secondary-assist thing isn't true. I think someone looked it up over the last two years and DD's split between primary & secondary assists was fairly average.

The issue with DD's assists isn't whether they're primary or secondary. It's how many of them he gets by essentially doing nothing other than making one basic pass. One example from a game earlier this year, when Sekac was still here, was a long shift in the opponent's end with Sekac, Galchenyuk, Subban, and I think Markov engaging in a long cycle along the boards, out to the blueline, back in, etc (I think the line was mid-change and they just stayed out there, as it was an odd combination of players).

This went on for 10 to 20 seconds. May even have been 30. Desharnais never once touched the puck during this cycle. He was never even in a position to help out during that entire cycle. The other four players, particularly Sekac, AG, and PK, did terrific work keeping that cycle going and maintaining possession of the puck. Then Sekac finally threw the puck to Davey who had glided down behind the net. Davey had the puck on his stick for about a second, threw it out front to Galchenyuk (inaccurately so IIRC), who got a fortuitous bounce off a defender's skate for the goal.

tl;dr version: Davey glided uselessly through the zone for the entire play while his teammates did all the hard work, touched the puck once, got an assist.

It's those kind of stinking assists that pad Davey's point totals, and he gets them all the freaking time because Therrien can never resist throwing him out there for an offensive zone draw. Davey also typically gets off the ice shortly after possession is lost so he doesn't have to do defensive work.

He is a brutally limited, mediocre player who is blessed with an NHL coach who loves him as a pet. He'll never make it so good on an NHL roster again, and despite that, he floats anyway, maybe knowing that the GM is buddy-buddy with the coach, so the coach is at minimum risk of being fired, ergo his place on the roster is secure.

I genuinely cannot comprehend how anybody can watch David Desharnais play a game and conclude anything other than this.

This is a post made up mainly of bias and BS. Shows to what lengths some posters will go to try and make you believe their agenda.

So what you're saying is the Habs front office are all idiots...because they would have to all be "in" on this if he was that bad a player and they were all trying to make him look good. The top players would all have to be in on it too. Cause you know...so he can get his 50 points a year without doing anything.

This crap is right up there with the people saying 9/11 didn't happen and it was all a big cover up.

 

[LaP]

Made a promise to myself. If DD is still with the habs in september, I won't be watching the habs on TV anymore. Only radio.

Will be better for my sanity

There's no doubt that if DD and Plekanec are our 2 top 6 centers again next season my level of interest for the habs will go down significantly.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

...and your point is?

The numbers put him as a low end #1 to high end #2 center. For a top 6 forward, that's a big part of the job description. I don't know any high end top 6 guys that are there for their defense only.

The point is, it's a ridiculous claim to put forth and lean on "the numbers" for. It's hard to imagine anyone actually watching the games coming to that conclusion, regardless.

 

[The Nightman]

The numbers put him as a low end #1 to high end #2 center.

This was said.

There's way more than average production to be a #2 center, does this really need explaining?

 

[bsl]

Are you telling me playing Eller on a 2nd line is crazier than having freaking dd there?

Talk about not watching the game, my god.

All of you are spending pages giving DD supporter a stage with Eller. They will talk about him forever. That is not the problem.

X is no. 1, Pleks is no. 2, Eller is no. 3, and DD does not fit. End of conversation .

My problem with DD that next year he may well block a possible no 1.: Galchenyuk. Now that would be a serious **** up.

 

[Hullois]

^ Yeah hate to admit it but it has become painful to watch the ongoing dd treatment these last years. At a time when we have some really good pieces in the lineup why handicap the team with a subpar midget centre? Makes no sense except affirmative action to increase the franco quotient. If bergy decides to continue this experiment yet another year I may switch to radio myself.

Yeah you are right, it is shameful.

Yes of course, MB would weaken his team simply to make sure that a random franco is somewhere in there...

 

[The Nightman]

All of you are spending pages giving DD supporter a stage with Eller. They will talk about him forever. That is not the problem.

X is no. 1, Pleks is no. 2, Eller is no. 3, and DD does not fit. End of conversation .

My problem with DD that next year he may well block a possible no 1.: Galchenyuk. Now that would be a serious **** up.

Agreed, It happened already this year with dd, him an his lousy play managed to keep Galchenyuk on the wing and stall his progression at center.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

Your analysis is way out in left field.

Trade value has nothing to do with it. Desharnais is a legit #2 center, Eller is a #3 on any NHL team.

If Eller was that good offensively, he's would go through half a season where he put up 3 points. Even when he is scoring it's garbage goals, Dale Weise has more offensive skill than him, yet I don't see you trumpeting him as a top 6 guy.

The whole BS about PP and zone starts is quite comical. Every other team that plays competitive hockey puts their offensive players in more offensive zone starts. Only on HF boards is it a bad thing...downright comical.



How are his situations "butter soft"? He gets offensive zone starts...just like most top 2 lines in the NHL. Yet on here it's a "thing", in most of the world it's common sense.

Desharnais does get better wingers on average, but that's also quite logical. Most teams paly their scorers on the top 2 lines, not the 3rd. Do Perron Kunitz Hornquist play with Sutter on Pittsburgh or with Crosby and Malkin? He also faces better players, guys put out there to shut down his line, while Eller faces weaker d-men and weaker defensive forwards on average.

Putting up 188 points in 290 games(53 point pace) is easily top 6 production.

Why you never take the context in consideration.

Why not watch the games instead? Not everything is about numbers.

Yeah 50 pts average per season is top 6 numbers but in the situations we used DD, there's nothing astonishing getting 50 pts. I'm sure Eller can do it if used in the same situations. (I know you can't admit/accept that because it would discredit your DD but it's the truth)

Let's says if Vancouver decides to put Higgins with the Sedins and on every PP for a full season. Of course his numbers will be boost and most likely get in the 50 pts.. Does that make Higgins a legit top 6 players? Absolutely not.

Weise is the perfect example for us. Almost 50% of his production this season came while playing on the first line. Put Weise in a full season with DD and Pacioretty, he'd get close to 40-45 pts. That's close to top 6 production. Does that make us a better team? No because it's not about points. It's about the players and what they bring on the ice.

DD can average 45-50 pts in the rest of his career, I won't consider him a legit top 6 player. Of a ****** team maybe. But I want to win, if you think DD as a top 6 players for us is not a problem, then be prepared to never see the cup in Montreal until DD is gone.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

Yes of course, MB would weaken his team simply to make sure that a random franco is somewhere in there...

He's done it with the coaching staffs of both organizations.

But of course it's outlandish that the small, soft, below average 2 way center who has gotten an absurd amount of ice time with Paciorety in the last 2 years has nothing to do with what province he was born in hey?

Good one.

 

[Hullois]

He's done it with the coaching staffs of both organizations.

But of course it's outlandish that the small, soft, below average 2 way center who has gotten an absurd amount of ice time with Paciorety in the last 2 years has nothing to do with what province he was born in hey?

Good one.

Indeed, it has absolutely nothing to do with it. Ask francos Brière & PAP how they got preferential treatment. Oh wait...

 

[Monctonscout]

This was said.

There's way more than average production to be a #2 center, does this really need explaining?

It's still 75% of the equation. Half the top 2 centers in the NHL are one way players that don't play very physical. The guys like Toews are few and far in between.

 

[Monctonscout]

Why you never take the context in consideration.

Why not watch the games instead? Not everything is about numbers.

Yeah 50 pts average per season is top 6 numbers but in the situations we used DD, there's nothing astonishing getting 50 pts. I'm sure Eller can do it if used in the same situations. (I know you can't admit/accept that because it would discredit your DD but it's the truth)

Let's says if Vancouver decides to put Higgins with the Sedins and on every PP for a full season. Of course his numbers will be boost and most likely get in the 50 pts.. Does that make Higgins a legit top 6 players? Absolutely not.

Weise is the perfect example for us. Almost 50% of his production this season came while playing on the first line. Put Weise in a full season with DD and Pacioretty, he'd get close to 40-45 pts. That's close to top 6 production. Does that make us a better team? No because it's not about points. It's about the players and what they bring on the ice.

DD can average 45-50 pts in the rest of his career, I won't consider him a legit top 6 player. Of a ****** team maybe. But I want to win, if you think DD as a top 6 players for us is not a problem, then be prepared to never see the cup in Montreal until DD is gone.

He's used the same way other #1 and 2 centers are used. Not sure what planet you're living on, but that's reality. Unfortunately on here, reality often doesn't matter.

 

[Monctonscout]

He's done it with the coaching staffs of both organizations.

But of course it's outlandish that the small, soft, below average 2 way center who has gotten an absurd amount of ice time with Paciorety in the last 2 years has nothing to do with what province he was born in hey?

Good one.

Right...because he couldn't care less if he gets fired so he would just hire ****** coaches for ***** and giggles...



...gotta be a candidate for post of the week.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

Indeed, it has absolutely nothing to do with it. Ask francos Brière & PAP how they got preferential treatment. Oh wait...

Lol, neither of those guys has anything to do with Desharnais and the favouritism shown to him in the last 3 years.

Nice try though!

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

...and your point is?

The numbers put him as a low end #1 to high end #2 center. For a top 6 forward, that's a big part of the job description. I don't know any high end top 6 guys that are there for their defense only.

Finished 42nd in scoring for centers, and 85th for forwards. That is clearly not the numbers that a low end #1 puts up, and that's ignoring every other aspect of the game. Say points were the only thing that mattered-- he still doesn't deserve the ice time, linemates, and PP favoritism he receives. But, once we factor in defensive responsibilities, and consider what others could do in replacing him, it becomes even more clear that he doesn't deserve a spot on the top line, probably not the top 2, or maybe 3 even. The thing that irks me, and others, most about DD is that he's never held accountable, and that MT will never play Galchenyuk or Eller on the top line for more than a handful of games (handful of seconds for the latter lol). At least try to see if the others can produce as well or better than DD on the scoreboard (Chucky has already shown he can), which I have faith they can do, and then the top line doesn't consist of a clumsy, one-dimensional midget who's afraid to shoot. Chucky could easily replicate the production of DD, he scored 2 less points on the season in less games, playing 2nd line left wing with ****ing Pleks and whoever MT drew out of his hat, while DD got spoonfed copious amounts of powerplay time and played ES with Pacioretty and Gallagher.

You can't legitimately tell me that our team looks better with DD on our first line instead of Galchenyuk.