David Desharnais - The 3rd line edition

[Sorinth]

I understand people wanting Desharnais out of the top 6 or out of the team, what i don't understand is the same people wanting Eller to play as a center on the first 2 lines when he has never produce 30 points or more in a full season.

That seems like a leap of faith that only braiwashed members of a cult would do.

Do you consider Plekanec a legitimate top-6 player?

Because if you remove PP points and compare Plekanec to Eller production since Therrien became coach 3 years ago. Eller has 90 points in 230 games and Plekanec has 106 in 244. Over an 82 game season that works out to 32.1 points for Eller and 35.6 points for Plekanec.

So 3.5 points is what separates Plekanec and Eller offensively, so unless Eller is absolutely horrible on the PP he's pretty much Plekanec's equal especially since Plekanec has had better linemates during that timeframe.

So whose the one whose been brainwashed here?

Both have probably very little value. Eller is good on defense but very inconsistent with his offense production and seems shaky in his head. 3rd line center with no upside.

Desharnais is small and easy too push but stills is a good playmaker. Good 3rd liner that can play in the top 6 and contribute

Eller value 2nd round pick + average prospect
Desharnais value a 2nd or 3rd round pick

The difference, big player are always overated by the GM and small player are underated

So if your a gm and had the choice between a 3rd liner that can play in the top 6 or a 3rd liner with no upside why would you give up more for the guy whose worse?

You say size is overrated, based on what? Eller's been our most productive playoff producer in large part due to his size. Size is a very valuable asset, that's why you have to pay more for it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No Mercy!

It's just an opinion. It's not a popular one but it's my own.

Haven't you seen enough evidence to change your opinion though man? I mean geez... what more do you need to see here?

 

[Tourist]

I don't think Desharnais has had an easy role. He did generally benefit from better offensive linemates, PP time and offensive zone starts, but he also faced better defensive players and had more pressure on his shoulders to produce points. Eller has never played much with Pacioretty, but he's never really had to play against the best defensive players or had expectations placed on him to be a go-to offensive guy. Not sure we can take his production in his current role and blindly extrapolate the numbers he would get in a quite different one.

Moreover, Eller does well defensively now, with defense being his primary focus. If offense became his main focus, would that impact his defensive awareness and dedication?

Eller has never been used as a main offensive weapon. As such, it's hard to tell how well he would do if he was deployed as one over a full season. He does a good job in his defensive center who chips in offensively role. He also has good size and some nice offensive tools, and we know the current alternative as the offensive center, Desharnais, isn't very good, so I do get why people would at least want our coach to give him a shot in a more offensive role.

Scoring has been a problem. We need to get better offensive players, sure, but it couldn't hurt to modify the roles of some of our current forwards. The backend and the goalie are strong enough to make us competitive despite the potential growing pains.

I don't hate DD as most here. Ideally, I would like to acquire a good proven offensive forward in a significant trade, promote the most deserving young forward left from the minors and keep DD around in a much diminished role, but 3.5M might be too much at that point just to have a backup plan.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Both have probably very little value. Eller is good on defense but very inconsistent with his offense production and seems shaky in his head. 3rd line center with no upside.

Desharnais is small and easy too push but stills is a good playmaker. Good 3rd liner that can play in the top 6 and contribute

Eller value 2nd round pick + average prospect
Desharnais value a 2nd or 3rd round pick

The difference, big player are always overated by the GM and small player are underated

If Desharnais had a value of that, he'd already be gone.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

Yup, the guy with 211 points in 339 NHL games is a 3rd liner but the one with 130 points in 363 is a 2nd liner?

That's downright comical.

And you play dumb again.

You should stop posting. You put stats without context and think you have a legit argument. You're really making a fool of yourself.

This is what you do.

How many points does McDavid has in the NHL. 0. How many points does Jonh Scott have 10. So it means Jonh Scott is a better NHL player than McDavid. Arguing without context. Good job mr. Scout

 

[sheed36]

I don't think Desharnais has had an easy role. He did generally benefit from better offensive linemates, PP time and offensive zone starts, but he also faced better defensive players and had more pressure on his shoulders to produce points. Eller has never played much with Pacioretty, but he's never really had to play against the best defensive players or had expectations placed on him to be a go-to offensive guy. Not sure we can take his production in his current role and blindly extrapolate the numbers he would get in a quite different one.

Moreover, Eller does well defensively now, with defense being his primary focus. If offense became his main focus, would that impact his defensive awareness and dedication?

Eller has never been used as a main offensive weapon. As such, it's hard to tell how well he would do if he was deployed as one over a full season. He does a good job in his defensive center who chips in offensively role. He also has good size and some nice offensive tools, and we know the current alternative as the offensive center, Desharnais, isn't very good, so I do get why people would at least want our coach to give him a shot in a more offensive role.

Scoring has been a problem. We need to get better offensive players, sure, but it couldn't hurt to modify the roles of some of our current forwards. The backend and the goalie are strong enough to make us competitive despite the potential growing pains.

I don't hate DD as most here. Ideally, I would like to acquire a good proven offensive forward in a significant trade, promote the most deserving young forward left from the minors and keep DD around in a much diminished role, but 3.5M might be too much at that point just to have a backup plan.

As I've said before and I'm only speaking for myself but I suspect others may feel the same. I don't think many here really hate DD the player. What they hate is how MT uses DD as a player. MT should be the one catching most of the crap for this and not DD. He's just doing what his coach is telling him to do

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Haven't you seen enough evidence to change your opinion though man? I mean geez... what more do you need to see here?

That's it though, I've seen a lot and I feel the same I always did about Eller. He's a 3rd liner.

About DD: I was hopeful he would find another gear in the playoffs but unfortunately he did not so my opinion of him changed. I never thought he was a star but I felt he just needed a good stretch of games but unfortunately it hasn't come. With Galchenyuk progressing I feel it's time to move on.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

And you play dumb again.

You should stop posting. You put stats without context and think you have a legit argument. You're really making a fool of yourself.

Context is only for Desharnais, dontcha know?

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

Both have probably very little value. Eller is good on defense but very inconsistent with his offense production and seems shaky in his head. 3rd line center with no upside.

Desharnais is small and easy too push but stills is a good playmaker. Good 3rd liner that can play in the top 6 and contribute

Eller value 2nd round pick + average prospect
Desharnais value a 2nd or 3rd round pick

The difference, big player are always overated by the GM and small player are underated

GM are not stupid.

They will look who each player plays with. DD. Pacioretty most of the season, plays on EVERY PP.. What?? Not only 50 pts. That's terrible for a center playing mostly with a 35g scorer. It's not just a bad season. He's averaging 50 pts in the last 3 season despite getting Pacioretty on one wing and plays on the PP. He gets even worst in the playoffs. Also a terrible goal scorer. He had what.. like 60 straight games without scoring a goal at 5 on 5.

When they look at Eller. OK 27 pts. Not great. Decent for a third center. He did played with terrible offensive wingers though. Bourque, Prust, DSP, DLR, Sekac.. Must explains the lack of assists. 15 goals, that's pretty good for a third center that doesn't play on the PP.

If the GM did their homework, they would also see Eller is our best center in the last 2 playoffs.

 

[lou4gehrig]

The key when evaluating DD are secondary assists. Many of his points are on plays where he simply passes it to someone who makes a good hockey play to setup a goal. I don't feel like looking up the stat, but if you took out secondary assists from his season (and career) total, you'd be even less impressed with him overall.

 

[LaP]

The key when evaluating DD are secondary assists. Many of his points are on plays where he simply passes it to someone who makes a good hockey play to setup a goal. I don't feel like looking up the stat, but if you took out secondary assists from his season (and career) total, you'd be even less impressed with him overall.

This season it was even worse. I think he had something like 6 assists by winning a faceoff. It's perfectly normal for a first line center and is not a problem when this first line center is pulling 70 points. That not even 10% of his points. But when the guy is pulling 48 points it's starting to be a problem imo as it is around 12% of his point total by just winning a faceoff in the offensive zone.

 

[Kriss E]

That's it though, I've seen a lot and I feel the same I always did about Eller. He's a 3rd liner.

About DD: I was hopeful he would find another gear in the playoffs but unfortunately he did not so my opinion of him changed. I never thought he was a star but I felt he just needed a good stretch of games but unfortunately it hasn't come. With Galchenyuk progressing I feel it's time to move on.

I know you like to repeat that this is just your opinion, but that doesn't make it a rational one.
We know DD just can't cut it as a top 2 center in Mtl. If Malkin was our #1, then yes, things might be different. As you very well know however, that's not the case.
So the DD centering Patches ''experiment'' failed and is over. I also can't believe you were somehow impressed or pleased with DD centering Galchenyuk-Gallagher/PAP on the second line. Those line looked terrible.
Him centering Prust and PAP on the 3rd line though, in an exploitation role, looked much better.

As for Eller, on the third line, he's been decent in his defensive role. He's also managed to put up 15 goals despite his tougher deployment.
When he's been given top 6 players, EVERY SINGLE TIME in his career, he's managed to actually produce pretty well considering his minutes and opportunities.
Now, could he sustain this over a full season? Nobody knows.

So how in God's name can anyone come to the conclusion that DD is beyond any doubt better than Eller in a top 2 role. That's not being rational.

 

[Mario Lemieux fan 66]

Eller's been our most productive playoff producer in large part due to his size. QUOTE]

Eller has one good playoff production with 13 points. Until he gets an other good performance, i will consider to be a one hit Wonder like many average players have done in the past without repeating it.

I sure as hell won't expect Eller to be again an offense force in the playoff.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I know you like to repeat that this is just your opinion, but that doesn't make it a rational one.
We know DD just can't cut it as a top 2 center in Mtl. If Malkin was our #1, then yes, things might be different. As you very well know however, that's not the case.
So the DD centering Patches ''experiment'' failed and is over. I also can't believe you were somehow impressed or pleased with DD centering Galchenyuk-Gallagher/PAP on the second line. Those line looked terrible.
Him centering Prust and PAP on the 3rd line though, in an exploitation role, looked much better.

As for Eller, on the third line, he's been decent in his defensive role. He's also managed to put up 15 goals despite his tougher deployment.
When he's been given top 6 players, EVERY SINGLE TIME in his career, he's managed to actually produce pretty well considering his minutes and opportunities.
Now, could he sustain this over a full season? Nobody knows.

So how in God's name can anyone come to the conclusion that DD is beyond any doubt better than Eller in a top 2 role. That's not being rational.

I posted a few pages back how Eller played with 1 or more offensive players many times in 2013-14 and managed low totals.

I just don't see it. Pointing to Eller's shortened season of 30 points is like me pointing to DD's 60. I don't expect either to repeat.

I don't know why people get so defensive regarding a 3rd liner. I honestly don't know what to say, just expressing that my opinion is he's a 3rd liner based on what I've seen.

It's not really an Eller thread so I don't get into it. I don't really see the need.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

I posted a few pages back how Eller played with 1 or more offensive players many times in 2013-14 and managed low totals.

I just don't see it. Pointing to Eller's shortened season of 30 points is like me pointing to DD's 60. I don't expect either to repeat.

I don't know why people get so defensive regarding a 3rd liner. I honestly don't know what to say, just expressing that my opinion is he's a 3rd liner based on what I've seen.

It's not really an Eller thread so I don't get into it. I don't really see the need.

Except that his 60 point season came in a year he had lots of power play time, and the team finished 28th.

While Ellers' numbers came in a year he played in more of a depth role, and the team performed quite well in the standings.

And you know exactly why Eller is always a part of these discussions too, please don't pretend to have your head in the sand.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

No real need to talk so much about Eller in a thread about how badly Desharnais sucks.

 

[Nynja*]

So let me get this straight, producing for 5-10 games with very good players makes you a top 2 center but producing for 4 straight years makes you a non top 2 center

Thats cool and all, and im gonna let chu finish, but whos been producing for 4 years? Because its not Davey.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

I don't know why people get so defensive regarding a 3rd liner.

But you yourself get very defensive about a 3rd liner.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

But you yourself get very defensive about a 3rd liner.

A guy I said we should trade?

 

[HabsDieHard*]

A guy I said we should trade?

That is nothing more than a cop out to absolve yourself of any need to answer why you have 2 completely different sets of standards for Eller and Desharnais.

 

[Kriss E]

I posted a few pages back how Eller played with 1 or more offensive players many times in 2013-14 and managed low totals.

Yes you did, and as far as I'm concerned, Eller didn't have 0 pts with everyone, did he?
So when you point out that Eller's most common linemates in 13-14 are Galch-Galla, then why you don't mention that he was actually producing well with them, which further reinforces my point?? Or do you think Eller put up 2 pts with them???
Spare me the ''he had slowed down so they were split up'' crap. They were split up for the first time in game 4 despite being on fire.
Yes, maybe they were inconsistent, which top 6-9 player isn't exactly? Heck, you have top wingers that are still inconsistent.
But the point stands, when Eller was playing on the EGG line, he produced.
Even when they removed Gallagher and just kept Galchenyuk, he produced at a .5 pace.
It's once they removed Galchenyuk and left him with complete scrubs that his production halted. Before that it was fine. So not sure what your point is here.

Your narrative that Eller got these opportunities with top players and failed is just wrong. Unless of course you want to consider that playing wing with Briere and Bourque was an opportunity for him...Two guys that couldn't cut it in the top 6..
When Bourque finally decided to play like a top 6 again, and he had Gionta on his wings too, what happened? Oh right, he lead our team in points.

So ya, again, don't get your point.

I just don't see it. Pointing to Eller's shortened season of 30 points is like me pointing to DD's 60. I don't expect either to repeat.

Why would anybody expect Eller to repeat it when he plays with Sekac and Prust/Bourque in a defensive role and no PP opportunities??

Again, I don't quite understand how you feel you're being rational here without looking at any context, and flat out ignoring the significant difference in Eller's production when he plays with capable wingers vs without.
It's significant and common. His production didn't just go up once when getting more offensive opportunities. It went up every single time, and by a significant margin. You can't just ignore that.

I don't know why people get so defensive regarding a 3rd liner. I honestly don't know what to say, just expressing that my opinion is he's a 3rd liner based on what I've seen.

It's not about him being a 3rd liner. I agree that it's his best spot to play. I just disagree with the idea that DD is somehow more deserving of a top 2 center.
He might very well be, but there's enough evidence to suggest Eller could fit in just as well if not better. We just never pursued it.

It's as insane as people arguing Galchenyuk isn't a better center than DD, despite him having such a tiny sample at center but ignore the production he's put up while in that spot.
Now Eller isn't as talented as Galchenyuk, no doubt about it, but it's a same mind set. Eller has shown potential, but it's completely ignored.

It's not really an Eller thread so I don't get into it. I don't really see the need.

Well I just responded to your post.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That's it though, I've seen a lot and I feel the same I always did about Eller. He's a 3rd liner.

Did you feel that way after 2013? I doubt you did.

But then we relegated him to role of checker and ONLY checker.

About DD: I was hopeful he would find another gear in the playoffs but unfortunately he did not so my opinion of him changed. I never thought he was a star but I felt he just needed a good stretch of games but unfortunately it hasn't come. With Galchenyuk progressing I feel it's time to move on.

I don't see how he's a 2nd line center... He's been given EVERY opportunity and has trouble cracking 50 points and 20 goals. I don't see how anyone could seriously argue that he's a better option on for offense than ANY of our other three centers.

 

[Hoople]

The key when evaluating DD are secondary assists. Many of his points are on plays where he simply passes it to someone who makes a good hockey play to setup a goal. I don't feel like looking up the stat, but if you took out secondary assists from his season (and career) total, you'd be even less impressed with him overall.

The dreaded secondary assist. A way to diminish players.

Norris nominees.

PK Subban - 24 of 45 assists - 53.3%
Erik Karlsson - 20 of 45 assists - 44.4%
Drew Doughty - 18 of 39 assists - 46.1%

Still feel the same about using secondary assists to diminish performance and to feel less impressed with a particular player?

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

The dreaded secondary assist. A way to diminish players.

Norris nominees.

PK Subban - 24 of 45 assists - 53.3%
Erik Karlsson - 20 of 45 assists - 44.4%
Drew Doughty - 18 of 39 assists - 46.1%

Still feel the same about using secondary assists to diminish performance and to feel less impressed with a particular player?

I'll give you that much - the "secondary assist" argument is very contrived. But it's also expected that a defenseman would rack up secondary assists, versus a top6 centreman with tons of PP icetime.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Yes you did, and as far as I'm concerned, Eller didn't have 0 pts with everyone, did he?
So when you point out that Eller's most common linemates in 13-14 are Galch-Galla, then why you don't mention that he was actually producing well with them, which further reinforces my point?? Or do you think Eller put up 2 pts with them???
Spare me the ''he had slowed down so they were split up'' crap. They were split up for the first time in game 4 despite being on fire.
Yes, maybe they were inconsistent, which top 6-9 player isn't exactly? Heck, you have top wingers that are still inconsistent.
But the point stands, when Eller was playing on the EGG line, he produced.
Even when they removed Gallagher and just kept Galchenyuk, he produced at a .5 pace.
It's once they removed Galchenyuk and left him with complete scrubs that his production halted. Before that it was fine. So not sure what your point is here.

Your narrative that Eller got these opportunities with top players and failed is just wrong. Unless of course you want to consider that playing wing with Briere and Bourque was an opportunity for him...Two guys that couldn't cut it in the top 6..
When Bourque finally decided to play like a top 6 again, and he had Gionta on his wings too, what happened? Oh right, he lead our team in points.

So ya, again, don't get your point.

Why would anybody expect Eller to repeat it when he plays with Sekac and Prust/Bourque in a defensive role and no PP opportunities??

Again, I don't quite understand how you feel you're being rational here without looking at any context, and flat out ignoring the significant difference in Eller's production when he plays with capable wingers vs without.
It's significant and common. His production didn't just go up once when getting more offensive opportunities. It went up every single time, and by a significant margin. You can't just ignore that.

It's not about him being a 3rd liner. I agree that it's his best spot to play. I just disagree with the idea that DD is somehow more deserving of a top 2 center.
He might very well be, but there's enough evidence to suggest Eller could fit in just as well if not better. We just never pursued it.

It's as insane as people arguing Galchenyuk isn't a better center than DD, despite him having such a tiny sample at center but ignore the production he's put up while in that spot.
Now Eller isn't as talented as Galchenyuk, no doubt about it, but it's a same mind set. Eller has shown potential, but it's completely ignored.


Well I just responded to your post.

You kill me because I feel bad not responding but I'll keep it concise.

I showed a plethora of games where Eller was paired with an offensive talent or someone who was a 'top 6' forward for us. There was a significant chunk where he didn't have Bourque+Briere the whole time. He had Galchenyuk a lot, he had Gallagher a lot, he played with Gionta as well, etc...

This list does not include games 1-29 where he had EGG for the majority:

Game 30-31, Galchenyuk-Eller-Briere.
Game 32-33, EGG
Game 34, Moen-Eller-Gallagher
Game 39-40, Galchenyuk-Eller-Briere
Game 41-42, Galchenyuk-Eller-Prust
Game 43-44, Galchenyuk-Eller-Bourque
Game 47, Pacioretty-Eller-Gallagher
Game 48-52, Eller-Plekanec-Gionta
Game 60, 65-66, Galchenyuk-Eller-Bourque
Game 67, Galchenyuk-Eller-Briere
Game 68, EGG
Game 69-71, Galchenyuk-Eller-Gionta
Game 76, EGG
Game 77-78, Eller-Briere-Gionta
Game 79, Bourque-Eller-Gionta

I did not put Bourque and Briere as BOTH his linemates at any point on this list. Gionta was good enough for Plekanec was he not? Gionta also had great ES numbers.

How this equates to "He got scrap all year!" is beyond me.

Did he get the same thing as Plekanec and/or Desharnais? Of course not. We agree there but the narrative that he was thrown to the dirt is mind boggling.

The guy had 6 points in first games of the season and 20 the next 74. In those 74 he played with EGG, he played with Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Gionta, etc... and did not produce.

He got PP the first 20-30 games, plenty. He stopped getting it afterwards but even with that time he wasn't doing well.

As for 'splitting EGG line up to help DD'

HE WAS SPLIT UP FROM EGG AFTER GAME 3 TO PLAY ON PACIORETTY'S LINE. HE GOT PROMOTED.

Suddenly playing with Pacioretty is a demotion for Eller? It lasted 2 games with max and then he was back on EGG. Please don't make a big deal about this, he got bumped to 1st line and his TOI increased.

I honestly don't care that much anymore. I shouldn't have bothered replying in this thread at all. It's always the same stuff anyway. We've had this discussion and I've watched him play and I think he's a fringe top 6er at best.

I think DD is a 2nd liner who has his own issues, namely that he refuses to shoot. This hurts his ability to keep players honest and makes him predictable. As such, despite his talent level he cannot produce when teams can scout him and keenly prepare for him. He had several opportunities to rise up in the playoffs but kept the same game which hasn't been working.

In the new NHL however it's painfully obvious that most teams have incredible center depth and while these guys can fill in top 6 they shouldn't be there on a competitive team.

We've acquired assets, our young players are making the team(DLR, Beaulieu, Pateryn this year alone) and it's time to turn the leaf, make a trade to acquire quality and go with Eller as our #3 long term and DD elsewhere.