David Desharnais - Should I Stay or Should I Go Edition. (MOD WARNING #757)

[LyricalLyricist]

You're being rather ridiculous here.
Krejci is the #1 center in Boston, Bergeron is 2nd. You can spin it any way you want, Krejci plays on the top line, Bergeron on the 2nd.

No one ever said DD is the best player, they said he's the best option to center the top line. That is wrong.

Anyways, I'm done with this he said she said crap. Some people think too highly of DD, maybe not you, but some do or did, namely Monctonscout. Just like some think too poorly of him and feel he's just an AHL guy.

Some still put him next to Patches on their lines for next season for Christ's sake.

Then you've completely missed the context, that's why you find it ridiculous.

Sorinth is arguing people feel DD is the best player because they felt he was the best option.

Whether it's right or wrong(I think it's wrong going forward) it does not imply that DD is seen as better than Plekanec overall.

You responded to a discussion about that, that's all there is to it. No wonder you felt I was being ridiculous. I was merely arguing that a 2nd line C can be the better player overall.

IMO Galchenyuk should be given every opportunity to take DD's spot away from him and even if Galchenyuk fails Plekanec and Pacioretty should be a duo, not DD and Max. DD and Max is too predictable so at the most case scenario DD would center 2nd line. At the least he would be a 3rd line winger. Somewhere around that would be appropriate but Galchenyuk should get first dibs.

 

[Kriss E]

Then you've completely missed the context, that's why you find it ridiculous.

Sorinth is arguing people feel DD is the best player because they felt he was the best option.

Whether it's right or wrong(I think it's wrong going forward) it does not imply that DD is seen as better than Plekanec overall.

You responded to a discussion about that, that's all there is to it. No wonder you felt I was being ridiculous. I was merely arguing that a 2nd line C can be the better player overall.

IMO Galchenyuk should be given every opportunity to take DD's spot away from him and even if Galchenyuk fails Plekanec and Pacioretty should be a duo, not DD and Max. DD and Max is too predictable so at the most case scenario DD would center 2nd line. At the least he would be a 3rd line winger. Somewhere around that would be appropriate but Galchenyuk should get first dibs.

Some believe DD was a better option than Plek. That is beyond stupid.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Then you've completely missed the context, that's why you find it ridiculous.

Sorinth is arguing people feel DD is the best player because they felt he was the best option.

Whether it's right or wrong(I think it's wrong going forward) it does not imply that DD is seen as better than Plekanec overall.

You responded to a discussion about that, that's all there is to it. No wonder you felt I was being ridiculous. I was merely arguing that a 2nd line C can be the better player overall.

IMO Galchenyuk should be given every opportunity to take DD's spot away from him and even if Galchenyuk fails Plekanec and Pacioretty should be a duo, not DD and Max. DD and Max is too predictable so at the most case scenario DD would center 2nd line. At the least he would be a 3rd line winger. Somewhere around that would be appropriate but Galchenyuk should get first dibs.

As I have already said a few times, I think the EGG line is a fantastic option in addition to something like Patches-Pleks-Semin (or Kassian).

That would put Desharnais in a great position to drive an exploitation line in limited minutes with Kassian (or Semin) and DSP or Holloway or Weise on the RW. Those guys could easily get a few goals against 3rd pair defence and weaker forwards. The Mitchell/DLR+RW line would bolster the defence and allow our top forwards such as Galch, Patches, Plekanec and Eller to concentrate more on offence than defence.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

You're being rather ridiculous here.
Krejci is the #1 center in Boston, Bergeron is 2nd. You can spin it any way you want, Krejci plays on the top line, Bergeron on the 2nd.

No one ever said DD is the best player, they said he's the best option to center the top line. That is wrong.

Anyways, I'm done with this he said she said crap. Some people think too highly of DD, maybe not you, but some do or did, namely Monctonscout. Just like some think too poorly of him and feel he's just an AHL guy.

Some still put him next to Patches on their lines for next season for Christ's sake.

I don't see Bergeron as a #2 center, or playing the role of a #2 center.

Who do you see playing a #2 center role between Malkin and Crosby?

That's a bit ridiculous isn't it ?

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

I don't see Bergeron as a #2 center, or playing the role of a #2 center.

Who do you see playing a #2 center role between Malkin and Crosby?

That's a bit ridiculous isn't it ?

I do, and a lot also do. It's not that ridiculous and pretty debatable. If you read the Bruins line up toward in the last couple of seasons, Krejci was always ahead of Bergy.

Bergeron plays the same role as Kesler with the Ducks which is the 2 ways, 2nd center..

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Some believe DD was a better option than Plek. That is beyond stupid.

And some believe Eller should be ahead of Plekanec. It happens.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

As I have already said a few times, I think the EGG line is a fantastic option in addition to something like Patches-Pleks-Semin (or Kassian).

That would put Desharnais in a great position to drive an exploitation line in limited minutes with Kassian (or Semin) and DSP or Holloway or Weise on the RW. Those guys could easily get a few goals against 3rd pair defence and weaker forwards. The Mitchell/DLR+RW line would bolster the defence and allow our top forwards such as Galch, Patches, Plekanec and Eller to concentrate more on offence than defence.

It may be better but it serves no purpose. If the idea is to find a #1C propping Eller up is pointless.

Go with Galchenyuk if possible.

 

[Nynja*]

I don't see Bergeron as a #2 center, or playing the role of a #2 center.

Who do you see playing a #2 center role between Malkin and Crosby?

That's a bit ridiculous isn't it ?

And yet Bergeron got to be #1C this year with Kejeci out and his numbers took a hit.

 

[BaseballCoach]

It may be better but it serves no purpose. If the idea is to find a #1C propping Eller up is pointless.

On the ice, it is not pointless. The basic idea is to go with strength down the middle. In the first 100 feet of ice, Eller is strong, Galchenyuk is not. But in the front 100 feet, Galchenyuk is strong and a creative force, while Eller becomes complementary.

Pleks is fine as a 1C for now. He got 60 points in the RS last year, playing with Patches only 28% of the time. He's had as much as 69 and 70 points before when given offensive focus.

We may not have a Crosby or Malkin type center, but there is a salary cap, and we have our big money tied up in an elite goalie, elite defenceman, and two other top defencemen.

Since Pleks is our best center, he should play the most, and Mitchell is a smart player with a great faceoff percentage who can handle bottom line duties and defensive missions.

That leaves Eller and Desharnais. Eller is the better player but in all honesty Desharnais is a better center than winger. The logical conclusion, therefore, is to play the better 200-foot player (Eller) on the second most utilized line, while Desharnais is best as an exploitation center who should logically get our 5th and 6th best offensive wingers, and told to capitalize on his chances in limited, HUSTLING minutes against bottom-pairing D-men.

Some people here like the option of putting Galchenyuk at C, dropping Eller back to the third line and either eliminating DD from the lineup or making him into a winger. The winger idea is trying to put a square peg in a round hole, and personally I don't think it will work well. But more importantly, and irrespective of one's evaluation of Desharnais' fitness for wing, Eller on the third line means playing both Semin and Kassian more ES minutes than Eller, and I don't think that is the best use of the talents we have. I think Eller is our 4th or 5th best forward, and should be on the top two lines until and unless we upgrade our roster to where he is our 7th-9th best forward.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

And yet Bergeron got to be #1C this year with Kejeci out and his numbers took a hit.

You're actually making my point for me by bringing up Krejci's absence because in his absence, Bergeron's minutes didn't change at all. He played the same minutes he's always played - the same 18 minutes he's always played with around 2 min/game of PK time, 2 min/game of PP time and 14 min/game of ES time give or take 20 sec in each category. He won another selke. Mmmm seems to me like he played the same role no matter what and had just about the same results he's always had.

While this doesn't really matter to this argument, I wouldn't say it's correct to claim his offensive production dropped because if it did, it only did by about 5 pts which is normal variation in production that can be attributed to just about anything (luck, linemates, entire team sucking). He's had a worse season than that in terms of point per game, and 2 other season which were right around the 55 pts mark over 82 games so it's not clear that his production actually dropped, and it's even less clear if it's because of Krejci. That's if we only care about points, but I think we both know that calculating the offensive contributions of a player amounts to more than just points.

To me these talks of #1-2-3-4 lines and #1-2-3-4 centers are a bit antiquated, are merely a semantic argument or just used as a convenient way to identify groups of players. But they aren't well defined concepts with clear boundaries. What does it even mean to be a #1 center as opposed to a #2 center ? If it's become this precise of a terminology, I'm sure there are well defined boundaries. A #1 center plays this amount of minutes, a #1 center plays the most minutes, a #1 center plays minutes in all 3 situations compared with a #2 center. Someone needs to explain to me how it works exactly and tell me who between Crosby and Malkin is a #1 and who is a #2.

Following the Prust/kassian trade, when Kassian was asked if he minded playing on the 3rd/4th line, remember what his response was ? In his mind it doesn't matter because most teams roll 4 lines nowadays. Could just be a way to deflect the question but it's true that offensive production from elite players has dropped lately while the overall amount of goals scored hasn't. It seems that offensive production come from a bit everywhere now due to more talent on lower lines and more equal ice time distribution so Kassian is right here.

Now going back to Bergeron, whether Krejci is there or not, Bergeron's role is to take D zone draws, play some PK, play some PP, face the other team's best lines. It won't change no matter the quality of the other centers playing with him. He is being played at what he's good at. It's the same thing with Eller and Plekanec. They're good defensively, they have speed and/or size attributes which help them drive the play to the other end of the ice. They're used in that manner. Trying to put tags on players is just a way of simplifying things, and when it becomes part of the rhetoric to bash the player then it's pure silliness, even worse if those who question these silly tags are being called out as DD lovers or whatever.

 

[RJJ]

On the ice, it is not pointless. The basic idea is to go with strength down the middle. In the first 100 feet of ice, Eller is strong, Galchenyuk is not. But in the front 100 feet, Galchenyuk is strong and a creative force, while Eller becomes complementary.

Pleks is fine as a 1C for now. He got 60 points in the RS last year, playing with Patches only 28% of the time. He's had as much as 69 and 70 points before when given offensive focus.

We may not have a Crosby or Malkin type center, but there is a salary cap, and we have our big money tied up in an elite goalie, elite defenceman, and two other top defencemen.

Since Pleks is our best center, he should play the most, and Mitchell is a smart player with a great faceoff percentage who can handle bottom line duties and defensive missions.

That leaves Eller and Desharnais. Eller is the better player but in all honesty Desharnais is a better center than winger. The logical conclusion, therefore, is to play the better 200-foot player (Eller) on the second most utilized line, while Desharnais is best as an exploitation center who should logically get our 5th and 6th best offensive wingers, and told to capitalize on his chances in limited, HUSTLING minutes against bottom-pairing D-men.

Some people here like the option of putting Galchenyuk at C, dropping Eller back to the third line and either eliminating DD from the lineup or making him into a winger. The winger idea is trying to put a square peg in a round hole, and personally I don't think it will work well. But more importantly, and irrespective of one's evaluation of Desharnais' fitness for wing, Eller on the third line means playing both Semin and Kassian more ES minutes than Eller, and I don't think that is the best use of the talents we have. I think Eller is our 4th or 5th best forward, and should be on the top two lines until and unless we upgrade our roster to where he is our 7th-9th best forward.

Wow all this effort to find DD a place on this roster. Much simpler solution - trade him for a bag of ketchup chips and if you can't find a taker waive him and buy him out. The sooner Galchenyuk-Pleks-Eller are the centers the sooner we have a chance at winning the cup. Keeping DD on this team is just wasting another season.

 

[Deluded Puck]

The people who want DD off the team will have to wait until Hudon is ready.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Wow all this effort to find DD a place on this roster. Much simpler solution - trade him for a bag of ketchup chips and if you can't find a taker waive him and buy him out. The sooner Galchenyuk-Pleks-Eller are the centers the sooner we have a chance at winning the cup. Keeping DD on this team is just wasting another season.

I have no problem with Eller being on the third line if he not in the top 6 forwards.

However, trading Desharnais for a bag of pucks, or keeping him on a lower line, makes no difference to how Eller could be used.

I like the EGG line for its own qualities, and it has nothing to do with who we get to center our 5th and 6th wingers.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

The people who want DD off the team will have to wait until Hudon is ready.

Hudon might never be ready at all.
Hudon might never play center.
Hudon might become more of a 2-way center like Plekanec/Eller.

But my money is that you're only suggesting that because of language which is ridiculous and has been disproved given how Malhotra, Weber, Diaz, Leblanc, Briere, PAP and Bournival have been treated on this team (in my opinion they've been fairly treated given their capabilities but they certainly weren't given any favors). I think every single player who can speak Frenc has not been given too many favors except Mitchell, Bouillon and DD. And to me it looks like Bouillon was MT's old friend and ear in the room. DD is a productive 50 pts player with a 3.5M cap hit who is on the team and might/might not be move-able, and Mitchell is a quality bottom lines player so language has little to do with it.

 

[Deluded Puck]

Actually it's because he's the closest top 6 prospect we have.

Lack of Winger depth has been one of the many excuses given for the usage of Desharnais. With Kassian, Semin and Hudon we should have little excuses.

Galchenyuk, Plekanec & Eller should be the top 3 C's.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Actually it's because he's the closest top 6 prospect we have.

Lack of Winger depth has been one of the many excuses given for the usage of Desharnais. With Kassian, Semin and Hudon we should have little excuses.

Galchenyuk, Plekanec & Eller should be the top 3 C's.

I stand corrected then, but I think Hudon is in a dog fight with McCarron, Scherbak, Andrighetto, Holloway on who makes the team first.

 

[Milhouse40]

Hudon might never be ready at all.
Hudon might never play center.
Hudon might become more of a 2-way center like Plekanec/Eller.

But my money is that you're only suggesting that because of language which is ridiculous and has been disproved given how Malhotra, Weber, Diaz, Leblanc, Briere, PAP and Bournival have been treated on this team (in my opinion they've been fairly treated given their capabilities but they certainly weren't given any favors). I think every single player who can speak Frenc has not been given too many favors except Mitchell, Bouillon and DD. And to me it looks like Bouillon was MT's old friend and ear in the room. DD is a productive 50 pts player with a 3.5M cap hit who is on the team and might/might not be move-able, and Mitchell is a quality bottom lines player so language has little to do with it.

Can Bergevin ice a team with no Local player.....i remember this constant criticism of Gauthier for that!

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Can Bergevin ice a team with no Local player.....i remember this constant criticism of Gauthier for that!

People will complain about everything and anything no matter what MB does. Some will think there are too few local players, and if MB goes out and get some, some will think we go out of our way to have them.

 

[FuzzyWuzzy]

People will complain about everything and anything no matter what MB does. Some will think there are too few local players, and if MB goes out and get some, some will think we go out of our way to have them.

/sage right there.

 

[Capitaine Subban*]

The people who want DD off the team will have to wait until Hudon is ready.

Well done sir . And only Hudon right ?

 

[JLP]

Some believe DD was a better option than Plek. That is beyond stupid.

Put them both on the trade block and see which gets the better return

 

[LyricalLyricist]

And yet Bergeron got to be #1C this year with Kejeci out and his numbers took a hit.

What are you implying? That Bergeron isn't a #1C or that life is more difficult when your team is down a top center? If the second, then we'll okay? That's obvious.

 

[Rapala]

Soon this thread will have a Permanent Title.
PLAYER DISCUSSION: David Desharnais Warn the Mods.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Can Bergevin ice a team with no Local player.....i remember this constant criticism of Gauthier for that!

there's less and less Quebecois in the league, for MB to grab one while improving the team he'd HAVE to go out of his way to do so.

 

[Rapala]

Put them both on the trade block and see which gets the better return

Gets any return...