David Desharnais - Should I Stay or Should I Go Edition. (MOD WARNING #757)

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Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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Jeddah
DD played 4 games as #3 center I believe. 6.5 as #2 center.

I don't follow, essentially it's impossible for a 3rd line to play 2nd most on occasion or a 2nd line to play the most on occasion?

Eller hit 18+ minutes 11 times last season. I guess he's not a real 3rd liner?

It depends on many things like special teams for instance and it applies to everyone.

DD also produced near PPG between the Gallys.

He was also a PPG on 3rd line when Eller was out and Galchenyuk was getting top PP time and 70+ OZS.

He wasn't compared to Eller in the post, any way you slice it the guy was just saying DD is a solid middle 6 player. It's not the most outrageous statement I've ever heard.

JL brought up DD played on the third line as much as Galchenyuk played on the first. I said that was wrong, which it was.
Furthermore, I brought up Eller to show how two players can play in the same line position and have entirely different roles.

So when someone says DD is a solid middle 6 guy, I take it that this player is good for whatever role. That's not the case at all with DD. He's an exploitation center, that's all.
 

LyricalLyricist

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Aug 21, 2007
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JL brought up DD played on the third line as much as Galchenyuk played on the first. I said that was wrong, which it was.
Furthermore, I brought up Eller to show how two players can play in the same line position and have entirely different roles.

So when someone says DD is a solid middle 6 guy, I take it that this player is good for whatever role. That's not the case at all with DD. He's an exploitation center, that's all.

I personally see him as a 2nd liner on a team stacked with wingers like Chicago(Brad Richard's spot) or on a team like Edmonton(Derek Roy's spot last year), etc...

I don't see him cutting it as top 6 in Pittsburgh, LA and other places.

It's my personal opinion really. He's done better than people give him credit for even if his production didn't suit the role.
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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I personally see him as a 2nd liner on a team stacked with wingers like Chicago(Brad Richard's spot) or on a team like Edmonton(Derek Roy's spot last year), etc...

I don't see him cutting it as top 6 in Pittsburgh, LA and other places.

It's my personal opinion really. He's done better than people give him credit for even if his production didn't suit the role.

This really doesn't make much sense to me. The guy has issues cracking 50pts.
If he was used like Plekanec, then okay. Around 50pts playing tough minutes, with lower level wingers, I can accept that.
If he was used as a 2nd line center, like Richards, with limited offensive ops and secondary PP time, then okay again.

But used in a primary offensive role, with primary PP usage, with one of the best scorers in the game, no. That's not good enough man.

I think you've been so used to this mediocrity that you accept up as something good now.

DD's production given his opportunities and usage is not good at all.
 

LyricalLyricist

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Aug 21, 2007
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This really doesn't make much sense to me. The guy has issues cracking 50pts.
If he was used like Plekanec, then okay. Around 50pts playing tough minutes, with lower level wingers, I can accept that.
If he was used as a 2nd line center, like Richards, with limited offensive ops and secondary PP time, then okay again.

But used in a primary offensive role, with primary PP usage, with one of the best scorers in the game, no. That's not good enough man.

I think you've been so used to this mediocrity that you accept up as something good now.

DD's production given his opportunities and usage is not good at all.

What are you talking about? He hit 48 points and didn't even play in his natural position or as a top 6 C the entire year.

You really believe that if he played C over wing he wouldn't have made 2 points more?

Richards made 37 pts. Played with Kane, Versteeg and Sharp as his top 3 linemates and a 69.9% offensive zone start ratio while remaining a center.

DD made 48 pts. Played with Pacioretty, PAP and Gallagher as his top 3 linemates and a 59.6% offensive zone start ratio.

Now where it differs beyond the OZS is DD got 2:23 PP TOI/G and Richards got 2:02. In addition, Richards got 12:49 ES TOI/G and DD got 14:50.

All things considered, do you really believe DD can't fill in the role of Brad Richards on that team? Really? His linemate quality as a #1C are near identical to Richard's linemates as a #2C. Their PP TOI is similar and Richards gets more OZS. It's only in TOI at ES that DD really stands out and that should account for the difference in production.

Believe it or not but Toews(sticking to same team) and company actually play 3:22 PP TOI/G and similar ES TOI.

DD has hit about 37ish ESP points every year for the last 4 years. Toews hit 46 this year while never playing wing or being 3rd line C. Realistically, that's the difference isn't it? Toews had 57.0% OZS start so the difference is miniscule.

Now, someome will get excited and say I'm comparing him to Toews. I'm not. I'm merely showing how DD is step behind but still productive.

DD was 123rd out of all forwards in last 4 years for 5 on 5 PTS/60. I put at least 1000 minutes over that span as a minimum, that's about 1 season's worth minimum. Some of those people aren't even in the NHL anymore(Sykora, Prospal, Wellwood).

Ovechkin is 127th on the list. Kovalchuk is 154th. You get the idea. He's among the pack of a top 6 forward and his 'sheltered minutes' aren't even as prolific as many claim.

On the 4 on 4 list DD is ranked 57th with 50 min mimumum(had no choice, lowest value possible) over last 4 years. He is on par with Toews 4 on 4.

On PP he's ranked 119th out of those with 300 minutes+. Ahead of many quality players.

The biggest issue with DD is he's a good player, not a great one. Good players belong as complimentary pieces on top line or in middle 6. When you're icing Max and 2 complimentary pieces(DD+Weise) it's ****. No question.

When DD came out of his slump he had 51 points in 61 games in 2013-14. He played with max and Gallagher/vanek.

When he played with Pacioretty/Cole he had 60 points.

Other small features:

He's one of our best SO players.
He's one of the few players on the habs who are better on the road than at home.

He's the complimentary player, not the go to guy. He lags on many aspects and isn't great at anything, isn't physical and is only good at some select categories.

That's why there's evidence to suggest DD is a good productive player but also one playing above his level.

In the playoffs his status as a complimentary talent gets exposed quickly when teams video scout the hell out of you, games get tighter and matchups are handled better.

Put this guy in middle 6 and you'll be happy. Of course if you have a better fit like Galchenyuk then roll with it and put him. No issue there.

DD on 3rd line is a luxury. If we can have that it's a VERY good thing.
 

Jaynki

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Feb 3, 2014
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What are you talking about? He hit 48 points and didn't even play in his natural position or as a top 6 C the entire year.

You really believe that if he played C over wing he wouldn't have made 2 points more?

Richards made 37 pts. Played with Kane, Versteeg and Sharp as his top 3 linemates and a 69.9% offensive zone start ratio while remaining a center.

DD made 48 pts. Played with Pacioretty, PAP and Gallagher as his top 3 linemates and a 59.6% offensive zone start ratio.

Now where it differs beyond the OZS is DD got 2:23 PP TOI/G and Richards got 2:02. In addition, Richards got 12:49 ES TOI/G and DD got 14:50.

All things considered, do you really believe DD can't fill in the role of Brad Richards on that team? Really? His linemate quality as a #1C are near identical to Richard's linemates as a #2C. Their PP TOI is similar and Richards gets more OZS. It's only in TOI at ES that DD really stands out and that should account for the difference in production.

Believe it or not but Toews(sticking to same team) and company actually play 3:22 PP TOI/G and similar ES TOI.

DD has hit about 37ish ESP points every year for the last 4 years. Toews hit 46 this year while never playing wing or being 3rd line C. Realistically, that's the difference isn't it? Toews had 57.0% OZS start so the difference is miniscule.

Now, someome will get excited and say I'm comparing him to Toews. I'm not. I'm merely showing how DD is step behind but still productive.

DD was 123rd out of all forwards in last 4 years for 5 on 5 PTS/60. I put at least 1000 minutes over that span as a minimum, that's about 1 season's worth minimum. Some of those people aren't even in the NHL anymore(Sykora, Prospal, Wellwood).

Ovechkin is 127th on the list. Kovalchuk is 154th. You get the idea. He's among the pack of a top 6 forward and his 'sheltered minutes' aren't even as prolific as many claim.

On the 4 on 4 list DD is ranked 57th with 50 min mimumum(had no choice, lowest value possible) over last 4 years. He is on par with Toews 4 on 4.

On PP he's ranked 119th out of those with 300 minutes+. Ahead of many quality players.

The biggest issue with DD is he's a good player, not a great one. Good players belong as complimentary pieces on top line or in middle 6. When you're icing Max and 2 complimentary pieces(DD+Weise) it's ****. No question.

When DD came out of his slump he had 51 points in 61 games in 2013-14. He played with max and Gallagher/vanek.

When he played with Pacioretty/Cole he had 60 points.

Other small features:

He's one of our best SO players.
He's one of the few players on the habs who are better on the road than at home.

He's the complimentary player, not the go to guy. He lags on many aspects and isn't great at anything, isn't physical and is only good at some select categories.

That's why there's evidence to suggest DD is a good productive player but also one playing above his level.

In the playoffs his status as a complimentary talent gets exposed quickly when teams video scout the hell out of you, games get tighter and matchups are handled better.

Put this guy in middle 6 and you'll be happy. Of course if you have a better fit like Galchenyuk then roll with it and put him. No issue there.

DD on 3rd line is a luxury. If we can have that it's a VERY good thing.

Very nice post, nice to see some rationals on hfboards!
 

Rosso Scuderia

Registered User
Jun 30, 2012
9,932
4,115
DD on 3rd line is a luxury. If we can have that it's a VERY good thing.

Depends on the depth of the team on the wings.

If we have scrubs like Prust and DSP who are role player and offense is not one of them, DD would be useless since he's an offensive player. If Prust and DSP can't score to save their life, DD has no purpose. He'd get around 25-30 pts just like Eller but he won't be as versatile.

If we have depth on the wings then ok, he can be useful and center a decent/good offensive line.
 

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,334
20,288
Jeddah
What are you talking about? He hit 48 points and didn't even play in his natural position or as a top 6 C the entire year.

You really believe that if he played C over wing he wouldn't have made 2 points more?

Richards made 37 pts. Played with Kane, Versteeg and Sharp as his top 3 linemates and a 69.9% offensive zone start ratio while remaining a center.

DD made 48 pts. Played with Pacioretty, PAP and Gallagher as his top 3 linemates and a 59.6% offensive zone start ratio.

Now where it differs beyond the OZS is DD got 2:23 PP TOI/G and Richards got 2:02. In addition, Richards got 12:49 ES TOI/G and DD got 14:50.

All things considered, do you really believe DD can't fill in the role of Brad Richards on that team? Really? His linemate quality as a #1C are near identical to Richard's linemates as a #2C. Their PP TOI is similar and Richards gets more OZS. It's only in TOI at ES that DD really stands out and that should account for the difference in production.
Why do you keep babbling on about Richards? Is he the standard now?
The guy is way past his prime, and is only a 2nd line center because Chicago had Sharp-Toews-Hossa-Kane. They wouldn't be able to afford another skilled center.
We are not in that position, AT ALL. Of course he could play that role. So could Eller. What's your point?? The guy still under produces for his role. Just because another old player also under produces you think you somehow proved something here??

And "if if if" isn't an argument. Last year it was If we forget about his bad start. Now it's if he didn't play wing.
Maybe it's time for you to realize that he's just not that good.
Believe it or not but Toews(sticking to same team) and company actually play 3:22 PP TOI/G and similar ES TOI.

DD has hit about 37ish ESP points every year for the last 4 years. Toews hit 46 this year while never playing wing or being 3rd line C. Realistically, that's the difference isn't it? Toews had 57.0% OZS start so the difference is miniscule.

Now, someome will get excited and say I'm comparing him to Toews. I'm not. I'm merely showing how DD is step behind but still productive.
This shows how ridiculous you can be when you just look at some stats.
Are you really trying to suggest DD-Toews are used in a similar manner? This should send red flags for you and make you realize you're missing something.

DD is more than a step behind.

DD was 123rd out of all forwards in last 4 years for 5 on 5 PTS/60. I put at least 1000 minutes over that span as a minimum, that's about 1 season's worth minimum. Some of those people aren't even in the NHL anymore(Sykora, Prospal, Wellwood).

Ovechkin is 127th on the list. Kovalchuk is 154th. You get the idea. He's among the pack of a top 6 forward and his 'sheltered minutes' aren't even as prolific as many claim.

On the 4 on 4 list DD is ranked 57th with 50 min mimumum(had no choice, lowest value possible) over last 4 years. He is on par with Toews 4 on 4.

On PP he's ranked 119th out of those with 300 minutes+. Ahead of many quality players.
Toews, Ocheckin, Kovalchuk, what other superstar names shall we put just a step ahead of DD??..

Jesus..

The biggest issue with DD is he's a good player, not a great one. Good players belong as complimentary pieces on top line or in middle 6. When you're icing Max and 2 complimentary pieces(DD+Weise) it's ****. No question.

When DD came out of his slump he had 51 points in 61 games in 2013-14. He played with max and Gallagher/vanek.

When he played with Pacioretty/Cole he had 60 points.


Other small features:

He's one of our best SO players.
He's one of the few players on the habs who are better on the road than at home.

He's the complimentary player, not the go to guy. He lags on many aspects and isn't great at anything, isn't physical and is only good at some select categories.

That's why there's evidence to suggest DD is a good productive player but also one playing above his level.

In the playoffs his status as a complimentary talent gets exposed quickly when teams video scout the hell out of you, games get tighter and matchups are handled better.

Put this guy in middle 6 and you'll be happy. Of course if you have a better fit like Galchenyuk then roll with it and put him. No issue there.

DD on 3rd line is a luxury. If we can have that it's a VERY good thing.
DD is an exploitation center through and through. Give those guys offensive minutes, more playing time, PP time and your best winger, and they will produce more. In no way does that make them top 6 or middle 6 guys.
 
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