David Desharnais a legit #2 centerman

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Grant McCagg

@duhduhduh
Dec 13, 2010
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I'm afraid that Eller has not been the same player offensively since the injury last spring. He was crappy in the exhibition season..but then had a quick start to the season where he got a goal on the bench and a couple of other lucky bounces. Since then..we have not seen many offensive glimpses..his offensive hockey sense has been of concern..he doesn't seem to be able to spot open teammates quickly - he often hangs onto the puck until he has no good play..he dead ends himself.

Did Eller play better offensively over a 48-game last season than DD has over the past 47 games? Maybe you can argue that he did..but it's highly debatable - he had 8 goals and 30 points in 46 games..over the past 47 games DD has 12 goals and 40 points.

In 277 career games, Eller has 100 points. In 244 career NHL games, DD has 152 points. this season DD is playing 30 seconds more per game, yet has 18 more points.

Different styles of player - for me it's becoming apparent that Eller doesn't see the ice well enough to be a top-two center...I'm wondering if he may not be more effective as a winger, and learn to use his size and speed to create havoc..he'd have to learn to crash to the net again though..that's the part where I think there's been the biggest change - he's just not quite as willing to take the big hit in an effort to score a goal. Maybe I'm wrong in this assessment..but that's what it looks like to me.
 
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Lafleurs Guy

Guuuuuuuy!
Jul 20, 2007
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Because he had 6 points in his last 16 games after their incredible 5-games start. Because DD wasn't going anywhere. Because Pacioretty wasn't going anywhere. Because during that stretch from the start of the season till November 16th, we had 2.48 Goals For. And previously to November 16th, we were in a 7-9 record after the great first 5 EGG line games. And that just before the change was made, we were 2-6. And weren't scoring goals. And unfortunately, the awakening of DD, Pac and having Gallgher on their line, permitted for the Habs to go 9-1 before the Los Angeles debacle. What can I tell you.....stats are indeed telling a lot of things. But that was premise before when I started to "bash" the advanced stats and all......My point was that while ALL those stats are relevant, there is always a way to find some great and some bad to every player. Anybody remembers that while Gomez was putrid, that his lovers were still going at it with the possession numbers? Anybody remember that a guy like Tom Pyatt, based on stats, was seen as this incredible PK'er that almost made him untouchable? So there were reasons to somewhat change the lines. People keep talking how patient he was with DD......wasn't he patient with Bourque? Wasn't he even patient with Eller? Can people still see, beyond the "but it's unfair how he's treated" the fact that Eller wasn't playing great? Isn't Therrien too patient with Murray some will say? Or Emelin? Or Gionta and his offensive chances and PP's? Why is it solely the DD show? Why can't the use of the other players do NOT affect the team?

Goals for right now? 2.46. Goals For before the lineup change? 2.48.
Wachu talkin' 'bout Willis?

Our goals for after October was 2.95 per game. 59 goals in 20 games and we were doing pretty well offensively - comfortably in the top ten. Then we flip the switch and DD gets the opportunities and we sink like a stone. Defensively we may have been mediocre but we could score.

Is this DD's fault? No. He's doing the best he can in the role he's been given and YES to his credit he's produced some points. But its been toxic for the team. No doubt the dump and chase has hurt but so has the ice distribution.

Again, Pleks becoming a shutdown guy ONLY is just a theatrical way to see he,s getting less chances. But he's not Jay McClement. He has 30 seconds less on the PP. He's playing regularly for so many years with a Gionta that keep scoring 20 goals a year despite us not liking him. And was paired with Brìere and Galchenyuk this year too....SURELY not proving that this line became a shutdown line. Plekanec on ANY line will happen to be more responsible line....but not a shutodown line. The PROBLEM with him is on the PK. Not enough confidence in others. Numbers are way too astronomical compared to the 2nd forward. Which takes most of his energy there, that might show why he doesn't have a whole lot of energy elsewhere.
One guy's playing with Max and Gallagher and is also usually on the ice with the best blueline pairing in the league. The other has Gionta and your choice of Bourque/Bournival/Briere... and he's killing penalties and is pretty much never on the first PP unit meaning he's often been on the PP with Bouillion instead of Subban.

Nevermind the offensive chances they get, look at the freaking linemates... Good luck when you are paired with two guys who can't hit the side of a barn. Bourque was particularly useless in that dept whereas Gionta always manages to fire it right at the goalie's crest...

Strange that we want to take Pleks....and want to give him the treatment that DD has. Like, let's say what he had when he had Kovy and Kosty. Still, Pleks only had 69 points. But somehow, that wasn't a problem. I don't remember but was there anybody that waas whining about Koivu not having the chance to play with the best players? Wouldn't Koivu not be able to do more than 69 points especially when Kovalev was at 84???
Who said we do?

Give him the best wingers and let him play a two way game. Create a 1st unit PP that features Galchenyuk... spread it around.
And one thing I hope to someday have an answer to....if DD is getting everything, the best wingers and everything...how the heck is he better in points away than at home? Isn't the quality of opposition better away? Especially when you don't have the last change? Does the sheltering go as far as everytime the opponent puts their best line against DD, that Therrien ask for a line change immediately? Or how is it possible for DD to always get weaker linemates if he forms the best line and there's actually NOTHING else on any other lines?
It doesn't matter if you're on the road or at home... you can still put out the linemates that you want and you can still put the guy in the offensive zone and still on the 1st unit PP. DD isn't the first guy to score more on the road nor will he be the last.

When you've got Markov, Subban, Gallagher and Max with you... you're going to score some points.
'Cause that,s what we have.....for now. This is not NHL 2014. If we could have Toews, I wouldn't care about DD. Just saying that the day you transform Pleks minutes into DD minutes, it won't get better. Galchenyuk is NOT ready NOW. But I'm expecting him to be a centerman next year. We are freakin talking about half of season....
Not saying it would be and I'm not advocating for this. A one line strategy is stupid. But if you're going to do it this way, then do it with Galchenyuk instead.

Again 29th in 5 on 5 scoring... wtf would we have to lose? Only team behind us there is freaking Buffalo.

Think about that for a second... only Buffalo is worse.
DD is playing his full 3rd season in the league. To know what he's able to do, you actually need to know. Why would you not have the fun to see what he could do in the playoffs so that then you'd bash him Ribeiro's style 'cause he again proves he can't be there in the big games and so on? Why? Are you afraid he'd actually perform and we'd HAVE to keep him? If it's so clear that he's not going to do the job, and frankly, I'm also eager to see, why not let him have it?
Why?

Because our scoring has died. That's why. That should be enough for anyone to understand.

Barring that... if you want to go with a one line strategy he's STILL not the guy. Why? Because he's not a prospect that we should be developing like Galchenyuk or even Eller who's younger and bigger... and he's not our best center, Plecs is... that's why.

A one line philosophy (which is what we've gone with for most of the year) doesn't work. And it's especially stupid when we've got actual talent up the middle. One thing if we were with Scott Gomez and a bunch of scrubs but we've got good centermen here. We see it with Murray and Bouillion. Any surprise we should see it with DD? I guess MT loves an underdog 'cause I can't understand why he's doing what he's doing with this team. It's atrocious to watch.

As for me being scared to see him produce in the playoffs... I hope he scores a hat-trick every game and we win the cup. But no, I don't think its good for us if we come back with him as our no. 1 again next year and I think that's what's going to happen if MT is coach.
 

Milhouse40

Registered User
Aug 19, 2010
22,127
24,740
No. If I keep repeating to have Eller with the kids, it does not mean that the DD line should have been kept together. What I told you are the reasons why Therrien might have wanted it that way. But personnally, I would have kept the Eller line together.

Will always strike me as something people who have points like you, who makes sense even if we disagree, should just not say. You seriously think, that Therrien is in the business, knowing full well that it's his last chance, with the only goal to make DD succeed even if it means losing big time? That at the end of his press conference when they'll ask him his evaluation of the team, he'll say "I know we sucked but at the very least, DD had 70 points so I'm happy"??? Seriously? It might very well be the wrong thing to do. Might very well be the wrong approach. But something tells me that anybody coaching a team would have the win in mind. Not anybody's personal success

Yes he deserved it. I keep saying that Eller deserved more time on the PK. I kept saying that the Eller line should not have been dismantled. So I said that, numerous times, maybe not directly at you. But Eller did get the Kid line this year. Not Pacioretty, but 2 good wingers nonetheless. Surely more offensively oriented than Pleks.

I don't think that Therrien think about making producing DD.
Come on....i know Therrien got absolutely no other choices to use him like he is right now. But like i said, it's not even a choice. Even IF there were better candidates for the job, even if some player outproduced him....either you use DD ofensively or either you bench him.

Althought DD isn't bad while having that kind of ice-time and linesmates......i will never believe in a team offensively led by the smallest center in the NHL....unless he's Gretzky...and there's only one.

But I think they were too many possibilities of line-up with these players to get stuck on stupid with a line-up that provide no scoring and no wins. Therrien tried about everything...even broke Plek-Gio....but he don't break Pac-DD...like it is gold.

If those players can't be effective without each other, trade them.
But i don't think this is the case......for both of them.


This last line tell me a lot about your personnality.... And I don't envy you at all.

And if you are so succesful, why bother bashing other people ?

:laugh: I didn't mean it like that :laugh:
I don't take myself that seriously.....and i'm a long shot from being "succesfull".

But spending 5 to 6 hours a day on HFboards at work and just getting paid is basically ridiculous......for you it might be your "free time" you spend here, for me it's here i spend my day work....and some free time. Like now.
 

LyricalLyricist

Registered User
Aug 21, 2007
37,909
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Montreal
Can't believe we're still arguing about this guy.

40 points in the last 47GP, 13 goals, 27 assists in the span with what 5 shootout goals on top of it. Above zero +- as well, 50ish % FOs.
 

Lafleurs Guy

Guuuuuuuy!
Jul 20, 2007
75,396
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Can't believe we're still arguing about this guy.

40 points in the last 47GP, 13 goals, 27 assists in the span with what 5 shootout goals on top of it. Above zero +- as well, 50ish % FOs.
And our record has us 2nd in the Division.

Guess MT is a great coach too right? 'Cause that's all we should look at is points...
 

Lafleurs Guy

Guuuuuuuy!
Jul 20, 2007
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When DD had 1 point in 19 games the ONLY thing people would look at is points. People brought up stat sheet every chance they could.
People brought it up because its the only thing he offers. If he's not getting points he's totally useless.

Then our coach (for inexplicable reasons) decided to make him our number one center and went with a one line team.
 

ECWHSWI

TOUGHEN UP.
Oct 27, 2006
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When DD had 1 point in 19 games the ONLY thing people would look at is points. People brought up stat sheet every chance they could.

you know what ?

when DD wasnt producing at all we were more or less a .500 team...

in 2014, with DD producing, we're more or less a .500 team...
 

LyricalLyricist

Registered User
Aug 21, 2007
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41 points in 66 games = 50 pts in a full season

Yah, I think that's pretty good though. Basically guy didn't do much in the way of offensive results first 19 games of the year(didn't do much is even generous) and to come back and have a 50+ point pace is pretty decent no?

Not to mention hot or cold streaks don't necessarily include the full season.

People brought it up because its the only thing he offers. If he's not getting points he's totally useless.

Then our coach (for inexplicable reasons) decided to make him our number one center and went with a one line team.

At the time he was leading team in FO%, had least GA while on the ice too.
 

LyricalLyricist

Registered User
Aug 21, 2007
37,909
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Montreal
you know what ?

when DD wasnt producing at all we were more or less a .500 team...

in 2014, with DD producing, we're more or less a .500 team...

You know there's more than the 'DD factor' to how a team performs.

Maybe if they didn't switch DD and he kept slumping he'd be much less than .500 now.

Sometimes a player's upswing can be counterbalanced by other negative factors.

Besides, we were 10-9-2 in 1st 21 games and 27-16-5 since. Check the "more or less .500" again.
 

ECWHSWI

TOUGHEN UP.
Oct 27, 2006
28,604
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You know there's more than the 'DD factor' to how a team performs.

Maybe if they didn't switch DD and he kept slumping he'd be much less than .500 now.

Sometimes a player's upswing can be counterbalanced by other negative factors.

Besides, we were 10-9-2 in 1st 21 games and 27-16-5 since. Check the "more or less .500" again.

we didnt play 48 games in 2014... you know. :nod:
 

ECWHSWI

TOUGHEN UP.
Oct 27, 2006
28,604
5,423
Yah, I think that's pretty good though. Basically guy didn't do much in the way of offensive results first 19 games of the year(didn't do much is even generous) and to come back and have a 50+ point pace is pretty decent no?

Not to mention hot or cold streaks don't necessarily include the full season.



At the time he was leading team in FO%, had least GA while on the ice too.

given more PP time, more o zone starts, the best wingers on the team ? I'd say average at best,.
 

Natey

GOATS
Aug 2, 2005
62,327
8,500
What are you talking about?

The record this year when he doesn't produce vs when he does..

Why you cut to 2014 I have no idea.



Average=decent.
Why he cut it is simple - to try to make Desharnais look bad.

He was quick to point out DD's slump nearly 50 games ago, but has no issue cutting out the Habs 10 game unbeaten streak because didn't support his statement that we have the same record before and after, lol.

At least I can respect binne. He's not a DD fan, but at least he tries to make up arguments with stats. I even respect Lafleur to a extent because he tries to do the same, even with the stupid comments that we would be better without Desharnais in our lineup.

End of the day.. Desharnais is going no where.
 

LyricalLyricist

Registered User
Aug 21, 2007
37,909
5,815
Montreal
Why he cut it is simple - to try to make Desharnais look bad.

He was quick to point out DD's slump nearly 50 games ago, but has no issue cutting out the Habs 10 game unbeaten streak because didn't support his statement that we have the same record before and after, lol.

At least I can respect binne. He's not a DD fan, but at least he tries to make up arguments with stats. I even respect Lafleur to a nut because he tries to do the same, even with the stupid comments that we would be better without Desharnais in our lineup.

End of the day.. Desharnais is going no where.

Exactly! ECW uses the "I choose when to cut when I want" technique. Not long ago "fixed" my post saying DD has 40 points in 47 games, insisted we count all 66 games.

Suddenly when evaluating the record when DD is producing "Let's eliminate the 2013 portion" even though there's absolutely no reason to do so. I mean, before vs after usually means before vs after. Then again, we can be talking about the habs having a less than ideal streak lately which is fine but if we're talking streaks why is the streak I mentioned not fair?

Essentially, fantastic contradiction. Don't worry, I expect him to snake his way out of this one too even though the proof is in the last page.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=81798367&postcount=930

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=81799459&postcount=939

Why be consistent when you can be biased amirite?

Don't mind him cutting but he literally JUST fixed my post about then he cut. He's gotta make up his mind. This has been going on for a while now.

I know someone else will come and switch the topic on me here because that's what always happens.
 

SpeedyPotato

Registered User
Mar 29, 2012
2,588
2,415
DD is fine, I'd be happy with him as our 2nd line center behind Galchenyuk. Plekanec is headed for a 40 pts season and Eller well... neither of them deserves to play on the top two line with that kind of production. If by any miracle MB can retain Vanek to play with Chucky next year and find them a capable RW, Desharnais, Max Pac and Gallagher would make for a very decent 2nd line.
 

Alexdaman

Wolfman
Mar 12, 2012
8,289
120
Hell/Heaven
Would Plekanec produce more if he was given desharnais linemates, ice time and favorable matchups? Yes.

Would he be better at it than Desharnais? Probably Yes.

Don't throw pleky under the bus because he does all the dirty work that desharnais can't do.

I'm not entirely sure, he played with Pacio before and he plays with Gallagher and the results were very similar.
 

bentheprop

Registered User
Oct 28, 2006
660
22
St Catharines, ON
DD is fine, I'd be happy with him as our 2nd line center behind Galchenyuk. Plekanec is headed for a 40 pts season and Eller well... neither of them deserves to play on the top two line with that kind of production. If by any miracle MB can retain Vanek to play with Chucky next year and find them a capable RW, Desharnais, Max Pac and Gallagher would make for a very decent 2nd line.

I really don't like that line as a long term answer. It really needs a bigger winger on the right side. I love Gallagher but he's not going to last long if he's always on a line where he has to do all of the dirty work. With what you're proposing Vanek-Chucky-Gally, Patches-DD-big winger, is a better way to go.
 

ECWHSWI

TOUGHEN UP.
Oct 27, 2006
28,604
5,423
What are you talking about?

The record this year when he doesn't produce vs when he does..

Why you cut to 2014 I have no idea.



Average=decent.

for the same reason you seem to forget about the first 20 games when talking about DD points total I guess.
 

NHLFutureGuy3

Registered User
Aug 22, 2008
539
9
I have been away and super busy in another country to reply to HF but I will today. Otherwise it will look like I only bash Desharnais when it's easy and when he's in a scoring slump.

I acknowledge DD's skill and vision. He has proven that he can hang in the NHL, something I doubted for quite some time. I don't like how this coach practically molds the offensive lines around him but if he produces I can't argue with that.

Here's the one thing that he hasn't proven: Playoffs. We all know what the playoffs are about. Dare I say it "We are a grinding team" or at least we should be in the playoffs. That's right it's a war of attrition, physicality, jam, toughness, durability and all that stuff. We got pushed around by Ottawa last time and it wasn't because of guys like Subban and Gallagher who play physical. It was because the guys who weren't tough like Desharnais became neutralized by the physicality. If Desharnais steps up this playoffs, I will admit that I was wrong about everything. Until that time comes I still think he is a regular season player who has a place on a non-playoff team in the NHL.
 
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