TSN: Dave Poulin on the state of the Oilers

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

Not sure how many of you listen to the Ray and Dregs podcast, but Dave Poulin was on and had an interesting perspective about the current state of the Oilers. Starts just past the one hour mark:
Here's the main quote:

I was intrigued when I heard a few Oilers players, but Connor said in particular, "You know, we've got a really good core here". How many players would he consider in that core?
(Ray identifed McDavid, Draisaitl, Nurse, Nugent Hopkins and probably Larsson)
If you're going to change this team, you have to change this team.(RNH and Larsson), well that's 10+ million dollars of your 23? I don't know if you could bring those guys back. Because you could say "Well Nugent Hopkins didn't have a great year this year. Well he did have a great year last year and they got beat in the play-ins. Something's got to change in that locker room. It has to. And by all accounts, I don't know Ryan Nugent Hopkins but he sounds like a great guy, a great teammate, all of that, except maybe he just doesn't fit there with those guy if you want to win. Maybe you need a different type of player who's a bit more sandpaper with those guys. You don't need a guy who's a best friend to them or a good buddy because how many times do you hear in these exit meetings, exit meetings crack me up at the end of the year, because it's like "This is the tightest team I've ever played on..," Really?! You certainly didn't look like you played for each other. "Oh no, great bunch of guys, best group of guys ever... Closest group of guys I've ever had in the locker room.." Really?! It makes me laugh, because you weren't. Because you didn't play like that on the ice. And maybe it's because you don't have enough talent, that's a different story. But I think a tremendous amount of respect for Kenny Holland. He has the opportunity to change the script there in a big way. Not in a little bit around the edges way. And I think the temptation, when you have two of the best players you're allowed to be close enough just because of the two guys, but are you really close?"

Was an interesting point of view coming from a former player that played on multiple successful teams and I can't say I disagree with him. It seems like the organization has always sort of done the easy/convenient thing when it comes to "core" players: Draft them and keep them under contract until they eventually move on (or Chiarelli does his thing). Except for that one year when we didn't and came one win away from the Stanley Cup.

Successful teams certainly need to draft and develop core pieces, but they also address needs when necessary instead of just dealing with what they have and try to build around them. Is Holland planning to sign RNH because he fits here, or he is signing him because RNH wants to sign here and is better than what they have?



Mods feel free to put this in an existing thread. Wasn't sure which one particularly it was suited for.

Click to read more...

 

[Bank Shot]

I mean if you can bring in two guys that are clearly better than RNH and Larsson for the same money as those two well you should regardless of how friendly they are.

But the million dollar question is, who are the guys that are a clear upgrade on RNH that you can get without paying a premium for?

Change for the sake of change seems like kind of a Chiarelli move.

 

[Tyrolean]

With RNH, damned if you do and damned if you don't. Personally I would bot resign him unless it was for a short term and below 5 Mil or let him go , as I am not that worried about finding a suitable replacement.

 

[The Panther]

It's a tough one because it's seems clear that the coaches loves RNH and also that both Connor and Leon like RNH. That puts Holland in a tough position.

However, I do think RNH needs to go if Holland can get either a tougher, 2-way third-line center or a really good winger.

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

I mean if you can bring in two guys that are clearly better than RNH and Larsson for the same money as those two well you should regardless of how friendly they are.

But the million dollar question is, who are the guys that are a clear upgrade on RNH that you can get without paying a premium for?

Change for the sake of change seems like kind of a Chiarelli move.

That's the point. Instead of looking at individual clear upgrades it might be more about having a different mix.

Lots of examples of teams improving while trading the player with higher production:

Florida replacing Hoffman and Dadanov with Hornqvist and Duclair
Montreal trading Subban for Weber
Minnesota trading Granlund for Fiala, Staal for Johansson

I know what you're thinking, Hall for Larsson, Eberle for Strome. Poor examples because Chiarelli is incompetent. I'm not talking about clear downgrades, just different types of players. There's a difference between clear downgrading and changing the mix.

 

[North]

Not sure how many of you listen to the Ray and Dregs podcast, but Dave Poulin was on and had an interesting perspective about the current state of the Oilers. Starts just past the one hour mark:
Here's the main quote:


Was an interesting point of view coming from a former player that played on multiple successful teams and I can't say I disagree with him. It seems like the organization has always sort of done the easy/convenient thing when it comes to "core" players: Draft them and keep them under contract until they eventually move on (or Chiarelli does his thing). Except for that one year when we didn't and came one win away from the Stanley Cup.

Successful teams certainly need to draft and develop core pieces, but they also address needs when necessary instead of just dealing with what they have and try to build around them. Is Holland planning to sign RNH because he fits here, or he is signing him because RNH wants to sign here and is better than what they have?



Mods feel free to put this in an existing thread. Wasn't sure which one particularly it was suited for.

I agree with Poulin.

I like RNH and I don’t think this year is indicative of his actual ability but I do think they need a different type of player.

You can’t keep coming back with the same core group of guys and expect a different result.

 

[Mr Positive]

It's always funny when a pundit just says what HF was on about for a month or more.

I wouldn't put much stock in a McDavid interview response either. If there were divisions in the room it's not like he would talk about it openly

 

[Beerfish]

Both RNh and Larsson are not core players and should go unless they want to sign either cheap and long term or not cheap but very short term (no more than 2 years)

 

[McDrai]

It's really a matter of if Holland can find better replacements for RNH and Larsson. There isn't much out there in terms of quality players in free agency so I think they are both signed. I don't want to have to let RNH walk just to bring in a player like Tatar.

 

[Zerotonine]

Both RNh and Larsson are not core players and should go unless they want to sign either cheap and long term or not cheap but very short term (no more than 2 years)

Larsson i can almost gaurntee is a huge core player, more so in the room then ice maybe. But I don't think you can replace what Larsson brings esp for the money he will sign for

Nuge has me flipping back and forth, he had an off year. He is solid 2 way player but the players he is being compared to are signed for roughly 4 million dollar neighborhood. So to sign him for 6 mill plus a year seems like to much esp format is now supposedly a flat cap for several years to come

 

[alphahelix]

Not sure how many of you listen to the Ray and Dregs podcast, but Dave Poulin was on and had an interesting perspective about the current state of the Oilers. Starts just past the one hour mark:
Here's the main quote:


Was an interesting point of view coming from a former player that played on multiple successful teams and I can't say I disagree with him. It seems like the organization has always sort of done the easy/convenient thing when it comes to "core" players: Draft them and keep them under contract until they eventually move on (or Chiarelli does his thing). Except for that one year when we didn't and came one win away from the Stanley Cup.

Successful teams certainly need to draft and develop core pieces, but they also address needs when necessary instead of just dealing with what they have and try to build around them. Is Holland planning to sign RNH because he fits here, or he is signing him because RNH wants to sign here and is better than what they have?



Mods feel free to put this in an existing thread. Wasn't sure which one particularly it was suited for.

Poulin may be right but you’re completely wrong. The 05-06 team was loaded with long-term Edmonton guys most of whom we drafted and developed. A few trade acquisitions put that group over the top. The main problem in Edmonton for its entire existence has been failing to commit to the good players here, “the grass is always greener”, but the grass has -never- been greener. Every time we trade away a good player we get sweet F all in return. This team would already be a contender if we didn’t excise our best wingers and Petry for nothing. Now, this year may be different because we have cap flexibility and money is tight league wide. But there still has to be a clear upgrade to make it worth moving on from these guys, and that isn’t obvious - especially since half the guys in the league won’t play here even if they are on the market.

 

[voxel]

Larsson i can almost gaurntee is a huge core player, more so in the room then ice maybe. But I don't think you can replace what Larsson brings esp for the money he will sign for

Nuge has me flipping back and forth, he had an off year. He is solid 2 way player but the players he is being compared to are signed for roughly 4 million dollar neighborhood. So to sign him for 6 mill plus a year seems like to much esp format is now supposedly a flat cap for several years to come

Like?

Paying him $6M/yr isn't the issue. Eberle took a slight pay cut to $5.5M/yr... it's the rumors that Nuge wants more. $7M?

 

[barry halls]

A huge portion of the fanbase wanted Eberle gone because he lacked ‘sandpaper’ and ‘the will to win’, look how that turned out. If we could have Hamilton and Landeskog instead of Larsson and RNH we’d all take it, but it’s not happening. The Oilers aren’t at the point where they need change for the sake of change yet, they grew and improved this year.

 

[Bank Shot]

That's the point. Instead of looking at individual clear upgrades it might be more about having a different mix.

I know what you're thinking, Hall for Larsson, Eberle for Strome. Poor examples because Chiarelli is incompetent. I'm not talking about clear downgrades, just different types of players. There's a difference between clear downgrading and changing the mix.

The problem clearly isn't "The Mix" though. Poulin even mentions it in his own quote you supplied.

"Because you didn't play like that on the ice. And maybe it's because you don't have enough talent, that's a different story."

RNH for example is the Oilers third best forward, and the Oilers don't have another forward with a track record anywhere close to what he has done in the NHL. Now compare that to the teams that have escaped the first round this year, and the main contenders.

Teams like Tampa and Colorado for example have the super elite talent similar to the Oilers and also have 6 forwards each that are in the same tier or higher than RNH.

Teams like Winnipeg, Boston, Carolina and Vegas all have 5-6 forwards that are as good or better than RNH.

Edmonton was playing raw rookie McLeod who had 1 point in his 10 NHL games on the second line.....

Fans are lauding Jujhar Khaira as one of the Oilers best bottom six forwards this season and he started off the season on waivers. He had a hot start. 7 points in his first 12 games, and then 4 in his next 28.... None of the Oilers bottom sixers would be playing above the 4th line on contending teams and most wouldn't be playing at all....

You can change the mix all day, but until the Oilers add significantly more depth, they are always going to be at a significant disadvantage compared to the Stanley Cup contenders.

The Oilers don't need to necessarily change out RNH with another player type. They need to add 2-3 more forwards of the same calibre as RNH.

 

[The Nuge]

Poulin may be right but you’re completely wrong. The 05-06 team was loaded with long-term Edmonton guys most of whom we drafted and developed. A few trade acquisitions put that group over the top. The main problem in Edmonton for its entire existence has been failing to commit to the good players here, “the grass is always greener”, but the grass has -never- been greener. Every time we trade away a good player we get sweet F all in return. This team would already be a contender if we didn’t excise our best wingers and Petry for nothing. Now, this year may be different because we have cap flexibility and money is tight league wide. But there still has to be a clear upgrade to make it worth moving on from these guys, and that isn’t obvious - especially since half the guys in the league won’t play here even if they are on the market.

Exactly. The core is struggling to win because we aren’t surrounding them with supporting pieces. RNH is one of the best players on the market this year. Losing him for nothing isn’t going to magically make us a better team

 

[CycloneSweep]

The issue isn't that RNH and Larsson aren't good enough. It that they aren't enough in their own. moving on from them won't improve the team because they aren't the issue with it

Replace this year's teams RNH and Larsson with like Saad and Bogosian and we are a worse team. More "sandpaper" and grit doesn't change the fact that the bottom 6 is non existent.

 

[Zerotonine]

Like?

Paying him $6M/yr isn't the issue. Eberle took a slight pay cut to $5.5M/yr... it's the rumors that Nuge wants more. $7M?

Can't find the article I was reading, but it was about half a dozen players all around 4 million per year as comparables

 

[Aerchon]

Nuge and Larsson are two perfect examples of why the team is not performing in the playoffs and to a lesser extent the regular season.

I am historically big fans of both players and even in their current states would like them on the team. Just not at their current cap hit and I seriously question if they should be part of the "core" or leadership.

I don't believe there is a rational person alive that can look you in the eye and tell you RNH and Larsson are playing, A, even close to their potential and B, as good as they should be for being in their prime. Coaching, skillsets, injuries, chemistry... there are so many things that affect how a player plays but those two are trending more poorly than they should be under the circumstances.

Maybe they are not challenged enough. Maybe they are too comfortable. Who knows, but I'm confident we are not getting enough out of these two and I doubt we see that change if they get resigned. In fact, based off their perceived comfort level, it is highly likely both players continue to regress overall if resigned.

I liked the damned if you do damned if you don't comment earlier in the thread. Because losing those two players will hurt the team if not replaced and it is unlikely we find suitable replacements, and then improving upon them will be a shot in the dark at best. There is just no sure fire solution to improving upon those two.

For me it comes down to the organisation, pro scouting, coaching, and at the top of the list Holland. They need to correctly identify who could help the team and who cant. ESPECIALLY in the PLAYOFFS. A place where Nuge clearly is not good enough and Larsson not exactly a force either outside of the 2016-2017 season.

Personally my disappointment is extremely high at these playoff embarrassments. Close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades and we were only "close" to winning two playoff games in two years. That is straight up unacceptable in my books.

Barring significant pay cuts for both players I would suggest moving on from both and gamble that between our promising crop of young players/prospects and the somewhat thin UFA crop we come out the better team without those two.

Our cap situation is not rosy and anyone with the ability to look years ahead should see we are all but forced to either play dirt cheap UFAs or home grow most of our positions. Next year Nurse "hopefully" gets locked up for 9+, then in 4 years Draisaitl needs an 11 mill contract, 5 years McDavid 14? If Yamamoto played halfway decent this year we would be talking a significant number for him. Pulj is doing well but shouldn't break the bank... both those guys should be signed long term into their UFA years for cap savings and that means paying more up front. Moving on from Nuge and/or Larsson or signing them short of Leons next deal at a discount will go a long ways to managing the cap "big picture".

We are down to a 4 year window to win with McDrai and we do not have the most important piece, a goalie, in place. We did get exceptional goaltending, 2 #1 centers, a clear cut #1 level D, and still could not win a single game in the playoffs this year...

Holland has failed, Chiarellis excuses need to go away. Holland has used a ton of picks and liberally used retention and a buyout for a win now philosophy and FAILED. I do not see a GM with a plan of any sort. I personally would have liked to see him far more patient to date with the intent to make a GREAT team in these following next 2-3 years. The amount of assets he has given up with nothing to show for it is criminal. We could have traded the resources he has already committed for an promising goalie, a top 6 winger, or a promising top 3 defender without question. Instead we have more cap issues and James Neal... and a swack of very suspect middling or worse players that were all temporary and didn't help us in any way shape or form.

Tippett has failed, outside of being a great regular season coach, he is terrible in the post season and that is what matters most.

To circle back to Nuge and Larsson I feel both these two have lost the ability to elevate their games when it matters. How the organisation deals with these players or their cap space will define the remainder of the current McDrai Edmonton Oilers era.

 

[Joey Moss]

This is actually a very lazy take by Poulin.

The Oilers don’t need to let players walk in order to bring in pieces that are lacking in the group. No question the team needs more sandpaper.. guys who will step up in the playoffs and bring players in the fight. But there are players with expiring contracts who bring a lot less than RNH and Larsson that will be replaced. You could mix in a Hyman, Coleman, Danault, Goodrow (probably even 2) to go along with RNH and Larsson and accomplish what Poulin thinks is missing.

 

[McShogun99]

I’d prefer to keep RNH unless there’s a plan to bring in a right shot player that can play center and wing with a shoot first mentality.

 

[Joey Moss]

Nuge and Larsson are two perfect examples of why the team is not performing in the playoffs and to a lesser extent the regular season.

I am historically big fans of both players and even in their current states would like them on the team. Just not at their current cap hit and I seriously question if they should be part of the "core" or leadership.

I don't believe there is a rational person alive that can look you in the eye and tell you RNH and Larsson are playing, A, even close to their potential and B, as good as they should be for being in their prime. Coaching, skillsets, injuries, chemistry... there are so many things that affect how a player plays but those two are trending more poorly than they should be under the circumstances.

Maybe they are not challenged enough. Maybe they are too comfortable. Who knows, but I'm confident we are not getting enough out of these two and I doubt we see that change if they get resigned. In fact, based off their perceived comfort level, it is highly likely both players continue to regress overall if resigned.

I liked the damned if you do damned if you don't comment earlier in the thread. Because losing those two players will hurt the team if not replaced and it is unlikely we find suitable replacements, and then improving upon them will be a shot in the dark at best. There is just no sure fire solution to improving upon those two.

For me it comes down to the organisation, pro scouting, coaching, and at the top of the list Holland. They need to correctly identify who could help the team and who cant. ESPECIALLY in the PLAYOFFS. A place where Nuge clearly is not good enough and Larsson not exactly a force either outside of the 2016-2017 season.

Personally my disappointment is extremely high at these playoff embarrassments. Close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades and we were only "close" to winning two playoff games in two years. That is straight up unacceptable in my books.

Barring significant pay cuts for both players I would suggest moving on from both and gamble that between our promising crop of young players/prospects and the somewhat thin UFA crop we come out the better team without those two.

Our cap situation is not rosy and anyone with the ability to look years ahead should see we are all but forced to either play dirt cheap UFAs or home grow most of our positions. Next year Nurse "hopefully" gets locked up for 9+, then in 4 years Draisaitl needs an 11 mill contract, 5 years McDavid 14? If Yamamoto played halfway decent this year we would be talking a significant number for him. Pulj is doing well but shouldn't break the bank... both those guys should be signed long term into their UFA years for cap savings and that means paying more up front. Moving on from Nuge and/or Larsson or signing them short of Leons next deal at a discount will go a long ways to managing the cap "big picture".

We are down to a 4 year window to win with McDrai and we do not have the most important piece, a goalie, in place. We did get exceptional goaltending, 2 #1 centers, a clear cut #1 level D, and still could not win a single game in the playoffs this year...

Holland has failed, Chiarellis excuses need to go away. Holland has used a ton of picks and liberally used retention and a buyout for a win now philosophy and FAILED. I do not see a GM with a plan of any sort. I personally would have liked to see him far more patient to date with the intent to make a GREAT team in these following next 2-3 years. The amount of assets he has given up with nothing to show for it is criminal. We could have traded the resources he has already committed for an promising goalie, a top 6 winger, or a promising top 3 defender without question. Instead we have more cap issues and James Neal... and a swack of very suspect middling or worse players that were all temporary and didn't help us in any way shape or form.

Tippett has failed, outside of being a great regular season coach, he is terrible in the post season and that is what matters most.

To circle back to Nuge and Larsson I feel both these two have lost the ability to elevate their games when it matters. How the organisation deals with these players or their cap space will define the remainder of the current McDrai Edmonton Oilers era.

You are out to lunch if you believe Nurse is due for 9M +

 

[Heavy Dee]

I let Nuge walk if he wants more than 5x5. We can find his production in free agency easily.

Focus on Barrie and if you can get him signed, trade Bear for additional forward help or for a young goaltender.

Larsson in would like resigned because he brings that grit we need.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Nuge and Larsson are two perfect examples of why the team is not performing in the playoffs and to a lesser extent the regular season.

I am historically big fans of both players and even in their current states would like them on the team. Just not at their current cap hit and I seriously question if they should be part of the "core" or leadership.

I don't believe there is a rational person alive that can look you in the eye and tell you RNH and Larsson are playing, A, even close to their potential and B, as good as they should be for being in their prime. Coaching, skillsets, injuries, chemistry... there are so many things that affect how a player plays but those two are trending more poorly than they should be under the circumstances.

Maybe they are not challenged enough. Maybe they are too comfortable. Who knows, but I'm confident we are not getting enough out of these two and I doubt we see that change if they get resigned. In fact, based off their perceived comfort level, it is highly likely both players continue to regress overall if resigned.

I liked the damned if you do damned if you don't comment earlier in the thread. Because losing those two players will hurt the team if not replaced and it is unlikely we find suitable replacements, and then improving upon them will be a shot in the dark at best. There is just no sure fire solution to improving upon those two.

For me it comes down to the organisation, pro scouting, coaching, and at the top of the list Holland. They need to correctly identify who could help the team and who cant. ESPECIALLY in the PLAYOFFS. A place where Nuge clearly is not good enough and Larsson not exactly a force either outside of the 2016-2017 season.

Personally my disappointment is extremely high at these playoff embarrassments. Close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades and we were only "close" to winning two playoff games in two years. That is straight up unacceptable in my books.

Barring significant pay cuts for both players I would suggest moving on from both and gamble that between our promising crop of young players/prospects and the somewhat thin UFA crop we come out the better team without those two.

Our cap situation is not rosy and anyone with the ability to look years ahead should see we are all but forced to either play dirt cheap UFAs or home grow most of our positions. Next year Nurse "hopefully" gets locked up for 9+, then in 4 years Draisaitl needs an 11 mill contract, 5 years McDavid 14? If Yamamoto played halfway decent this year we would be talking a significant number for him. Pulj is doing well but shouldn't break the bank... both those guys should be signed long term into their UFA years for cap savings and that means paying more up front. Moving on from Nuge and/or Larsson or signing them short of Leons next deal at a discount will go a long ways to managing the cap "big picture".

We are down to a 4 year window to win with McDrai and we do not have the most important piece, a goalie, in place. We did get exceptional goaltending, 2 #1 centers, a clear cut #1 level D, and still could not win a single game in the playoffs this year...

Holland has failed, Chiarellis excuses need to go away. Holland has used a ton of picks and liberally used retention and a buyout for a win now philosophy and FAILED. I do not see a GM with a plan of any sort. I personally would have liked to see him far more patient to date with the intent to make a GREAT team in these following next 2-3 years. The amount of assets he has given up with nothing to show for it is criminal. We could have traded the resources he has already committed for an promising goalie, a top 6 winger, or a promising top 3 defender without question. Instead we have more cap issues and James Neal... and a swack of very suspect middling or worse players that were all temporary and didn't help us in any way shape or form.

Tippett has failed, outside of being a great regular season coach, he is terrible in the post season and that is what matters most.

To circle back to Nuge and Larsson I feel both these two have lost the ability to elevate their games when it matters. How the organisation deals with these players or their cap space will define the remainder of the current McDrai Edmonton Oilers era.

So you think gambling on youth that haven't sniffed the NHL and lesser players is a recipe for success?

You know that is a worse move than Holland has ever done right?

 

[Drivesaitl]

Not sure how many of you listen to the Ray and Dregs podcast, but Dave Poulin was on and had an interesting perspective about the current state of the Oilers. Starts just past the one hour mark:
Here's the main quote:


Was an interesting point of view coming from a former player that played on multiple successful teams and I can't say I disagree with him. It seems like the organization has always sort of done the easy/convenient thing when it comes to "core" players: Draft them and keep them under contract until they eventually move on (or Chiarelli does his thing). Except for that one year when we didn't and came one win away from the Stanley Cup.

Successful teams certainly need to draft and develop core pieces, but they also address needs when necessary instead of just dealing with what they have and try to build around them. Is Holland planning to sign RNH because he fits here, or he is signing him because RNH wants to sign here and is better than what they have?



Mods feel free to put this in an existing thread. Wasn't sure which one particularly it was suited for.

It begs the age old question is a room tight if it all gets along with each other or is a room tight when there is enough trust and stability to actively confront each other and pinpoint concerns?

The former is pretend closeness. Its just being friendly, familiar, guys playing ping pong, socializing, going out, meshing. Yeah, we know the Oilers for the entire cap era have been great at that. But thats just base camaraderie.

Teams punch through that if they really want to get somewhere. Take what happened in Winnipeg I guess. Lots of finger pointing, coach benches and scratches his star player, infighting, team in dissaray losing 8 in a row, murmurs of coach losing team, being fired, but the difference being Maurice has tenure and trust in the Jets org. He's not some fall guy.

Over here the trap door is for coach everytime. I mean can you even imagine Tippett of any of the coaches we've had here benching Drai, McD, even Nuge. It doesn't happen because we have a coaching carousel of tenuous coaches here who all know they are on thin ice almost always.

Orgs that do succeffully confront problems have inherent stability. its something the Oilers org doesn't have, and the fanbase is on cue with all that. The near constant mantra here is fire coaches, fire managers and people are by now removed from the thought that these are the type of shortsighted decisions that expansion clubs or chaotic franchises make. Which seldom leads to success, but further turmoil.

Really if it happened it would be one of the best things ever. To see Leon and Connor go at it. Just once. To ahve a disagreement that got into pushing, sparring, getting in each others grill. Its almost required for something like that to occur to come out the other side where confrontation is known and understood.

I've always felt to have bonding you have to risk the bonding. you know nothing about a person and you are not really close to them until you've had substantial conflict. Then you know if a real working or lifelong relationship is there. Without which you're just smiling and getting along and nodding your head.

I think this is related to the thread but sorry if I got off track.

 

[Stealth1616]

I think the part about not battling for your teammates was the most interesting part. For a long time I’ve thought there was an issue with the team not being very tight knit. Ya maybe a few guys are close but overall I don’t think it’s a very tight team.

It was my last year of junior hockey I realized how much damage a team can do when they generally cared about winning for the guy next to them. I have yet to see that kind of fight and passion with this team.