Datsyuk/Ovechkin vs Fedorov/Bure

[Cursed Lemon]

Fedorov was a better player than Datsyuk

He spent a lot of regular seasons not showcasing this fact.

 

[nowhereman]

Fedorov > everyone

Wrong.

Ovechkin is a top 20-25 player of all time, when the dust settles. Fedorov is not.

 

[CHGoalie27]

Ovechkin was a more explosive skater than both and would just run them over anyway.

There was not another person to play in the NHL that was a more explosive skater than Pavel Bure.

I'm laughing at any of the AINEC posts in this thread. There's never been a closer thread in my book.

Even the poll is close lol

 

[lawrence]

There was not another person to play in the NHL that was a more explosive skater than Pavel Bure.

I'm laughing at any of the AINEC posts in this thread. There's never been a closer thread in my book.

Even the poll is close lol

closes thing right now is connor mcjesus.

he entered the NHL 13 years after Bure retired.

 

[Ace of Hades]

I laugh at this whole cherry picking nonsense coming from Ovechkin fans, especially when Ovechkin cherry picks constantly.

Both of you clearly haven't seen Bure play at all if they they think that he's one dimensional, and only useful offensively.

Sure his job is to score goals, but he was much more than that.

He was a solid Pker in his time with Vancouver, and is definitely can be very nasty when the time comes for it. Just ask Shane Churla.

Bure is faster, and better goal scorer than Ovechkin. Bure is also a much better playoff performer than Ovechkin.

IMO more skilled too.

Overall as players I rank them as

Fedorov
Ovechkin ( can see him surpass feds by the time his career is over)
Bure
Datsyuk

Ovechkin > Bure in pretty much every respect (except PKing, lol), and Bure was amazing.

Wrong.
Bure is definitely > Ovechkin at goal scoring, pking, speed, play off performing.

also > (arguably more skilled (only this skilled part is subjective only))

 

[nbwingsfan]

Wait, what?

So now in this new revisionist history here at HF, Ovechkin is/was not a bullet on the ice.

Compared to Feds and Bure? No he's not.

 

[authentic]

I still don't get how people can put Bure above Datsyuk when they were close offensively but Datsyuk was in another realm defensively, although he was amazing and just about on par with Ovechkin as a goal scorer (not as an overall player though). At their peaks Ovechkin/Fedorov/Datsyuk were close all things considered, Fedorov and Datsyuk are the only two players of the modern era who combined superstar level offensive skill and defensive play in one package, and for that reason they were IMO very comparable to Ovechkin at his peak in terms of on ice value to a team, and Bure was no slouch as a two way player in his younger days as well as being a force in the playoffs, or anytime he was healthy really.

However if I had to rank them at their best, all bias aside, I would probably have it like this

Ovechkin
2 a) Datsyuk
2 b) Fedorov
Bure

The thing that separates Ovechkin slightly from the other two is that his peak was 3 straight full seasons where he maintained that level, as opposed to Datsyuk where it was just two and then 1 for Fedorov followed by 1 1/2 more where he wasn't quite at his 1994 level but still closer much closer to that than he would drop off too after. Fedorov also has multiple dominant playoff runs, but Datsyuk does as well and is actually quite underrated in the playoffs even if he wasn't as good as Fedorov for the most part. I still think Datsyuk was the best possession player of all time, and that combined with his jaw dropping IQ and ability to make a fool of everyone on the ice while producing elite offense gives him the slight edge over Fedorov IMO, who I think also had a better team and linemates around him during his time as well.

All in all it's Ovechkin and Datsyuk, not by far but it's a clear choice for me.

 

[authentic]

Fedorov and Bure are actually winning? Oh right I forgot what board I'm on, lol.

 

[authentic]

He spent a lot of regular seasons not showcasing this fact.

Yeah that's the biggest problem I have with those who say Fedorov was better than Bure, especially by any substantial amount. Datsyuk at 36 years of age was 6th in the NHL in points per game while posting the best corsi% playing with Helm, Abdelkader and a past his prime Kronwall. This was after several years of dominant playoff series where he was a one man show with Detroit after they were no longer a threat to go far as a team.

 

[lakai17]

Fedorov overall gets slept on. His defensive play was top notch with his skating ability.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

There was not another person to play in the NHL that was a more explosive skater than Pavel Bure.

I'm laughing at any of the AINEC posts in this thread. There's never been a closer thread in my book.

Even the poll is close lol

Bure was faster, OV was more explosive. There's a difference.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I laugh at this whole cherry picking nonsense coming from Ovechkin fans, especially when Ovechkin cherry picks constantly.

Both of you clearly haven't seen Bure play at all if they they think that he's one dimensional, and only useful offensively.

Sure his job is to score goals, but he was much more than that.

He was a solid Pker in his time with Vancouver, and is definitely can be very nasty when the time comes for it. Just ask Shane Churla.

Bure is faster, and better goal scorer than Ovechkin. Bure is also a much better playoff performer than Ovechkin.

IMO more skilled too.

Overall as players I rank them as

Fedorov
Ovechkin ( can see him surpass feds by the time his career is over)
Bure
Datsyuk



Wrong.
Bure is definitely > Ovechkin at goal scoring, pking, speed, play off performing.

also > (arguably more skilled (only this skilled part is subjective only))

Bure was the biggest cherry picker in league history during his time in Florida. No one said he was a cherry picker during his Vancouver time.

Bure is a better goalscorer than Ovechkin? Lmaoooo.

Rockets: 6-3, Ovechkin
Top 5 goals: 10-5, Ovechkin
Top 10 goals: 10-5, Ovechkin

NHL GPG leader: 7-1, Ovechkin (7-2 removing Lemieux)
Top 5 GPG: 9-4, Ovechkin (9-5 removing Lemieux)
Top 10 GPG: 10-6, Ovechkin

Bure isn't on the same tier as Ovechkin as a goal scorer, every stat proves it. I won't even get into pt finishes, PPG, AST or hart voting because it will look too embarrassing for Bure. Stop living in the 90s.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Fedorov and Bure are actually winning? Oh right I forgot what board I'm on, lol.

Probably the 2 most romanticized (aka overrated) 90s players. Not a surprise.

 

[authentic]

Bure though was Florida's only chance of scoring on even a semi consistent basis though so it's understandable they had him going all out on offense. He had 92 points one year when the second scorer on his team had 37.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Bure was the biggest cherry picker in league history during his time in Florida. No one said he was a cherry picker during his Vancouver time.

Bure is a better goalscorer than Ovechkin? Lmaoooo.

Rockets: 6-3, Ovechkin
Top 5 goals: 10-5, Ovechkin
Top 10 goals: 10-5, Ovechkin

NHL GPG leader: 7-1, Ovechkin (7-2 removing Lemieux)
Top 5 GPG: 9-4, Ovechkin (9-5 removing Lemieux)
Top 10 GPG: 10-6, Ovechkin

Bure isn't on the same tier as Ovechkin as a goal scorer, every stat proves it. I won't even get into pt finishes, PPG, AST or hart voting because it will look too embarrassing for Bure. Stop living in the 90s.

Bure played in a league where goal scoring was more difficult with worser equipment.

Take off your caps ovy goggles.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Bure played in a league where goal scoring was more difficult with worser equipment.

Take off your caps ovy goggles.

Ummm, everyone Bure competed against used that same equipment.. And wtf do goal finishes, GPG finishes or rocket trophies have to do with that? We aren't comparing their raw stats, it's a comparison of their performance vs their peers. Bure didn't come close to OV's dominance, end of story.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Ummm, everyone Bure competed against used that same equipment.. And wtf do goal finishes, GPG finishes or rocket trophies have to do with that? We aren't comparing their raw stats, it's a comparison of their performance vs their peers. Bure didn't come close to OV's dominance, end of story.

It's ridiculous and utterly laughable to suggest they are not in the same ball park in this regard. Considering Bure actually faced tougher competition. Who was Ovechkin's competion goal scoring wise? Only Stamkos iirc.

Bure scored 60 goals with lesser linemates in the DPE simple as that. and he played while the two line rule was established.

Considering you conceded in the Malkin thread of Bure being a better goal scorer than Ovechkin, it's weird to see you change your stance.

Ovechkin is a better overall player, but Bure is simply a better goal scorer, considering the context involved. Simple as that.

Bure>Ovechkin at being a pure goal scorer.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

It's ridiculous and utterly laughable to suggest they are not in the same ball park in this regard. Considering Bure actually faced tougher competition. Who was Ovechkin's competion goal scoring wise? Only Stamkos iirc.

Bure scored 60 goals with lesser linemates in the DPE simple as that. and he played while the two line rule was established.

Considering you conceded in the Malkin thread of Bure being a better goal scorer than Ovechkin, it's weird to see you change your stance.

Ovechkin is a better overall player, but Bure is simply a better goal scorer, considering the context involved. Simple as that.

Bure>Ovechkin at being a pure goal scorer.

Bure facing tougher competition is called nostalgia.

When all he did was cherry pick.

I've never said Bure was a better goalscorer than Ovechkin.

Not really. Ovechkin is in the top tier of goal scorers in history with Hull, Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe and Richard. Bure is in the 2nd tier. This "debate" was over years ago.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Bure facing tougher competition is called nostalgia.

When all he did was cherry pick.

I've never said Bure was a better goalscorer than Ovechkin.

Not really. Ovechkin is in the top tier of goal scorers in history with Hull, Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe and Richard. Bure is in the 2nd tier. This "debate" was over years ago.

Considering, Stamkos was mostly Ovechkin's competition in his peak years, you're factually wrong. Considering you are overlooking the context of competitions, ruling, etc.

Oh, it's Something that Ovechkin does. and fortunately for him, he doesn't have to follow the two line passing rule.

No he isn't. Bure, Bossy, Howe and Richard are in the top tiers of pure goal scorers in history. Ovechkin is below them. He has no gap over someone like Stamkos.

Yes, that debate was over, your caps goggles statements doesn't change that fact.

Bure at his best years, is goal scoring, electrifying speedster, who can PK, can score all kinds of goals, a pure goal scorer, and isn't soft by any means.

Like I said, Bure may be a lesser player overall, but he's certainly a better goal scorer. Ovechkin relies mostly on his shot on the PP, Bure relies on all kinds of circumstances to score his goals, hence he's more of a pure goal scorer.

Ovechkin's ES goal scoring, isn't that impressive.

 

[JAS 39 Gripen]

Feds/Bure

 

[93LEAFS]

I'll go with the Fedorov-Bure duo. The main reason being that Fedorov from 92-95 was basically the centerman any coach would come out with if they created there dream one in a lab. To this day, he still might be the most complete player I've ever seen. That doesn't make him the best, but peak Feds is fighting with everyone outside of Gretzky and Lemeiux as the most dominant player of the past 30 years. The only center outside of Gretzky and Lemieux I would consider taking over Feds from that era is Crosby, and potentially McDavid. Other guys had more sustained high-performance like Yzerman, Sakic, Malkin, etc, but I don't think they reached that level.

Peak Ovi vs Peak Bure is a wash to me. Ovi is more physical and tough to play against. Bure has better vision, and has a higher top speed (although both of them have ridiculous first 3 strides). Datsyuk is a great and a unique player, but I think Feds has him beat in everything except stickhandling.

Now, if we are judging on entire primes or career, the debate probably leans to the Ovi side, due to him having probably the best career (if we don't get into a strong argument about team accomplishments).

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Considering, Stamkos was mostly Ovechkin's competition in his peak years, you're factually wrong. Considering you are overlooking the context of competitions, ruling, etc.

Oh, it's Something that Ovechkin does. and fortunately for him, he doesn't have to follow the two line passing rule.

No he isn't. Bure, Bossy, Howe and Richard are in the top tiers of pure goal scorers in history. Ovechkin is below them. He has no gap over someone like Stamkos.

Yes, that debate was over, your caps goggles statements doesn't change that fact.

Bure at his best years, is goal scoring, electrifying speedster, who can PK, can score all kinds of goals, a pure goal scorer, and isn't soft by any means.

Like I said, Bure may be a lesser player overall, but he's certainly a better goal scorer. Ovechkin relies mostly on his shot on the PP, Bure relies on all kinds of circumstances to score his goals, hence he's more of a pure goal scorer.

Ovechkin's ES goal scoring, isn't that impressive.

Prove Bure had tougher competition?

Standing at the left circle while your team has the puck in the offensive zone is different than standing at the red line while the puck is in your d zone.

Ovechkin relies mostly on on his shot on the PP? So you're comparing peak Bure to current OV?
Makes sense.

Anyways, I'm done. This is pointless. You should bring this up on the HoH section to see how wrong you are. Bure isn't close to Ovechkin.

 

[Laineux]

The Ovechkin of the past few years that has perfected powerplay scoring would actually feast on DPE. There was around 40% more powerplay opportunities back in Bure's era so the best powerplay goal scorer of all time would appear even more dominant than he does in today's game when powerplay opportunities are at an all-time low.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Prove Bure had tougher competition?

Standing at the left circle while your team has the puck in the offensive zone is different than standing at the red line while the puck is in your d zone.

Ovechkin relies mostly on on his shot on the PP? So you're comparing peak Bure to current OV?
Makes sense.

Anyways, I'm done. This is pointless. You should bring this up on the HoH section to see how wrong you are. Bure isn't close to Ovechkin.

Bure faced players of Lidstrom, Pronger, Bourque category. While Ovechkin had Stamkos as the only comparable goal scorer relatively for his era. Impresively enough there's even a clip of Bure embarrassing both Lidstrom and Neidermayer.

Ovechkin isn't as prolific as a goal scorer as Bure. Ovechkin's best feats were completed in a league that was easier to score relatively

Not a single person has ever said Bure isn't close to Ovechkin outside of your bias.

Bure isn't close to Ovechkin in what capacity? We're talking about goal scoring here, where Bure has Ovechkin beat. Put Ovechkin in the same era as Bure, playing with the same competition, with the two line rule formation, and same type of linemates, then you can talk.

 

[Felidae]

Bure faced players of Lidstrom, Pronger, Bourque category. While Ovechkin had Stamkos as the only comparable goal scorer relatively for his era. Impresively enough there's even a clip of Bure embarrassing both Lidstrom and Neidermayer.

Ovechkin isn't as prolific as a goal scorer as Bure. Ovechkin's best feats were completed in a league that was easier to score relatively

Not a single person has ever said Bure isn't close to Ovechkin outside of your bias.

Bure isn't close to Ovechkin in what capacity? We're talking about goal scoring here, where Bure has Ovechkin beat. Put Ovechkin in the same era as Bure, playing with the same competition, with the two line rule formation, and same type of linemates, then you can talk.

Here's Bure and Ovechkin's goalscoring stats as well as their competition. Bolded are players they finished ahead of in goal scoring that year

Pavel Bure

Awards
3 Richards

Hart finishes: 3, 9, 12

Hart Competition
1999-00: Pronger, Jagr, Kolzig, Nolan, Recchi


Goals (Goalscoring Competition)
1992-93 NHL 60 (5th) Mogilny, Selanne, Lemieux, Robitaille, Yzerman
1993-94 NHL 60 (1st) Hull, Fedorov, Andreychuk, SHeppard, Shanahan
1997-98 NHL 51 (3rd) Peter Bondra, Teemu Selanne, Leclair, Palffy, Tkachuk
1999-00 NHL 58 (1st) Nolan, Amonte, Jagr, Kariya, Shanahan
2000-01 NHL 59 (1st) Sakic, Jagr, Bondra, Kovalev, Mogilny

GPG
1992-93 NHL 0.72 (6th)
1993-94 NHL 0.79 (2nd)
1997-98 NHL 0.62 (3rd)
1999-00 NHL 0.78 (1st)
2000-01 NHL 0.72 (2nd)
2001-02 NHL 0.50 (7th)

Alexander Ovechkin

Awards
3 Harts
3 Pearsons
Art Ross
6 Rocket Richards


Hart finishes: 2, 2, 6, 6, 14, 22, 23


Hart competition
2005-06: Thornton, Jagr, Kiprusoff, Staal, Alfredsson, Lidstrom
2007-08: Malkin, iginla, Lidstrom, Brodeur, Thornton
2008-09: Malkin, Datsyuk, Mason, Parise, Crosby
2009-10: Sedin, Crosby, Miller, Bryzgalov, Stamkos
2012-13: Crosby, Tavares, Toews, Bobrovsky, Kane
2014-15: Price, Tavares, Dubynk, Crosby, Getzlaf
2015-16: Kane, Crosby, Benn, Holtby, Thornton



Goals
2005-06 NHL 52 (3rd) Cheechoo, Jagr, Kovalchuk, Heatley, GIonta
2006-07 NHL 46 (4th) Lecavelier, Heatley, Selanne, Vanek, St Louis
2007-08 NHL 65 (1st) Kovalchuk, Iginla, Malkin, Boyes, Zetterberg
2008-09 NHL 56 (1st) Carter, Parise, Kovachuk, Vanek, Staal
2009-10 NHL 50 (3rd) Crosby, STamkos, Marleau, Gabork, Kovalchuk
2011-12 NHL 38 (5th) Stamkos, Malkin, Gaborik, Neal, Perry
2012-13 NHL 32 (1st) STamkos, Tavares, Carter, Toews, Tlusty
2013-14 NHL 51 (1st) Perry, Pavelski, Pacioretty, Kessel, Seguin
2014-15 NHL 53 (1st) STamkos, Nash, Tavares, Tarasenko, Seguin
2015-16 NHL 50 (1st) Kane, Benn, Tarasenko, Pavelski, Marchand
2016-17 NHL 27 (7th)

GPG
2005-06 NHL 0.64 (5th)
2006-07 NHL 0.56 (5th)
2007-08 NHL 0.79 (1st)
2008-09 NHL 0.71 (1st)
2009-10 NHL 0.69 (1st)
2011-12 NHL 0.49 (6th)
2012-13 NHL 0.67 (1st)
2013-14 NHL 0.65 (2nd)
2014-15 NHL 0.65 (1st)
2015-16 NHL 0.63 (1st)
2016-17 NHL 0.47 (10th)


Peak goal scoring I think it's quite close between the two. But the assertion of Bure having tougher competition is overstated, and I think Ovechkin's goal scoring prime was too lengthy to say that Bure surpasses him in that aspect.