Confirmed with Link: Datsyuk Leaving Wings

[Boomhower]

They can suspend him, but how can they refuse to allow him? Ovechkin has a contract and has said he'll play for Russia in the Olympics if the NHL doesn't go.

Olympics are different. Non professional. No contract. basically volunteering.

Datsyuk can't do this for the same reason NHL teams can't sign KHL players who are under contract for next season.
Radulov is a free agent next year.. hence why his NHL return is up in the air right now

 

[SlavaKozlov]

He can retire. Yes.
He is not allowed to play in the KHL unless Detroit voids the remainder of his contract..



There is no motivation for Detroit to void this contract.
NJD voided because Kovalchuk was under 35 and they got rid of his cap hit (almost entirely).
Because of the over 35 rule... Detroit will get stuck with entire cap hit no matter what.
Like I said different situation. Unprecedented.
Another fake retirement. But this time the team has no motivation to go along with it and void the contract so he can continue playing.

The Red Wings will go along with it and let him retire and void his contract. You can say they have no motivation to do so... but they also no reason to fight it. Datsyuk clearly doesn't want to be in Detroit/the NHL anymore. Let him go, and get over it. You can think differently about Datsyuk because of this, but it doesn't change what he already did for the Red Wings in his career.

Hopefully the Wings can work something out to trade his cap hit to another team or get out of the penalty some how, but if Datsyuk wants out of the NHL, Holland will let him go.

 

[Heaton]

Olympics are different. Non professional. No contract. basically volunteering.

Datsyuk can't do this for the same reason NHL teams can't sign KHL players who are under contract for next season.
Radulov is a free agent next year.. hence why his NHL return is up in the air right now

Yeah well, that won't ever happen. Holland will let Datsyuk do whatever he wants.

 

[Boomhower]

The Red Wings will go along with it and let him retire and void his contract. You can say they have no motivation to do so... but they also no reason to fight it. Datsyuk clearly doesn't want to be in Detroit/the NHL anymore. Let him go, and get over it. You can think differently about Datsyuk because of this, but it doesn't change what he already did for the Red Wings in his career.

Hopefully the Wings can work something out to trade his cap hit to another team or get out of the penalty some how, but if Datsyuk wants out of the NHL, Holland will let him go.

Agree to disagree. Put him to the test. maybe he does want to leave. But faced with a year off hockey at his age... maybe Datsyuk just returns. That is motivation enough for me. (maybe he decides to sit on his couch instead... I don't really care)

Holland should fight this with every weapon he has.
He is in charge of the Detroit Red Wings best interest and nothing else.
His job isn't to make Datsyuk's life perfect and he should not care if SKA folds tomorrow... let alone assist them in getting a player we have under contract.

 

[Heaton]

Agree to disagree. Put him to the test. maybe he does want to leave. But faced with a year off hockey at his age... maybe Datsyuk just returns. That is motivation enough for me. (maybe he sits on his couch... I don't really care)

Holland should fight this with every weapon he has.
He is in charge of the Detroit Red Wings best interest and nothing else.
His job isn't to make Datsyuk's life perfect and he should not care if SKA folds tomorrow... let alone assist them in getting a player we have under contract.

That's not his job, but look at how he handled the Cleary situation. Holland is loyal to a fault and lets his players have way more say than they should.

 

[Boomhower]

That's not his job, but look at how he handled the Cleary situation. Holland is loyal to a fault and lets his players have way more say than they should.

You are absolutely right. I wish I had faith in Holland to fight for my team!!

I'm just pointing out Datsyuk is not playing by the rules. And it is not a foregone conclusion that Detroit must sit back and watch.

They could open a can of worms and have some legitimate grounds to fight this. It's not Kovalchuk. Detroit gains nothing by voiding Datsyuk's contract and from a business standpoint absolutely should NOT void his contract.

 

[SlavaKozlov]

Agree to disagree. Put him to the test. maybe he does want to leave. But faced with a year off hockey at his age... maybe Datsyuk just returns. That is motivation enough for me. (maybe he decides to sit on his couch instead... I don't really care)

Holland should fight this with every weapon he has.
He is in charge of the Detroit Red Wings best interest and nothing else.
His job isn't to make Datsyuk's life perfect and he should not care if SKA folds tomorrow... let alone assist them in getting a player we have under contract.

Then Datsyuk might just go to Russia anyway to be with his daughter, the Wings suspend him for failing to report, even though he filed retirement paperwork with the league, Datsyuk's cap hit still counts against the Wings, but maybe they block him from playing in the KHL...

What would be the purpose of fighting it? Datsyuk is leaving and not coming back regardless. So all you do is try to stop him from playing in Russia, which still doesn't help the Wings either.

But I still don't think the Wings have any control of the situation if Datsyuk files retirement paperwork. Retired is retired, means NHL career is done, unless the player changes his mind and jumps through whatever hoops to get reinstated.

 

[SlavaKozlov]

You are absolutely right. I wish I had faith in Holland to fight for my team!!

I'm just pointing out Datsyuk is not playing by the rules. And it is not a foregone conclusion that Detroit must sit back and watch.

They could open a can of worms and have some legitimate grounds to fight this. It's not Kovalchuk. Detroit gains nothing by voiding Datsyuk's contract and from a business standpoint absolutely should NOT void his contract.

A player has the ability to retire at any point of their career for whatever reason. That is playing by the rules. Just like how a team can decide to buy out a contract of a player for a lesser price during a certain period of the summer. If a player wants to walk out of a contract and not get paid, it's their prerogative to do so.

 

[Boomhower]

But I still don't think the Wings have any control of the situation if Datsyuk files retirement paperwork. Retired is retired, means NHL career is done, unless the player changes his mind and jumps through whatever hoops to get reinstated.

A player has the ability to retire at any point of their career for whatever reason. That is playing by the rules. Just like how a team can decide to buy out a contract of a player for a lesser price during a certain period of the summer. If a player wants to walk out of a contract and not get paid, it's their prerogative to do so.

So if Sergei Mozyakin announces he is retiring from the KHL.
He can sign a multi year deal with the Red Wings the next day?
Of course not, Mettalurg would not void the contract.

Retired means you don't play Professionally anymore. Retired doesn't mean weasel your way out of a contract you no longer want to honor and into another professional league. The IIHF watchdogs this stuff. Kovalchuk was different as his contract was Voluntarily voided by the Devils.

 

[Shaman464]

You are absolutely right. I wish I had faith in Holland to fight for my team!!

I'm just pointing out Datsyuk is not playing by the rules. And it is not a foregone conclusion that Detroit must sit back and watch.

They could open a can of worms and have some legitimate grounds to fight this. It's not Kovalchuk. Detroit gains nothing by voiding Datsyuk's contract and from a business standpoint absolutely should NOT void his contract.

I wouldn't want a blackmailed Datsyuk playing for Detroit. What would stop him from literally coasting? Is it worse to have a retired Datsyuk or one who fundamentally doesn't give a ****?

 

[Boomhower]

I wouldn't want a blackmailed Datsyuk playing for Detroit. What would stop him from literally coasting? Is it worse to have a retired Datsyuk or one who fundamentally doesn't give a ****?

I don't question the mans pride in his play. I don't think he could do that once the skates are laced up.

It's just a business thing.

 

[Heaton]

I don't question the mans pride in his play. I don't think he could do that once the skates are laced up.

It's just a business thing.

From a pure hockey standpoint, what does a final year of Datsyuk accomplish for the Wings?

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

So if Sergei Mozyakin announces he is retiring from the KHL.
He can sign a multi year deal with the Red Wings the next day?
Of course not, Mettalurg would not void the contract.

Retired means you don't play Professionally anymore. Retired doesn't mean weasel your way out of a contract you no longer want to honor and into another professional league. The IIHF watchdogs this stuff. Kovalchuk was different as his contract was Voluntarily voided by the Devils.

My understanding of it is that there's an informal agreement between the KHL and NHL that you don't mess with other team's players that are currently under contract. In other words, while there's nothing in writing, both leagues just don't poach one another's players because it'd be a massive **** show otherwise and create a pile of uncertainty.

So technically, yes, Mozyakin could announce he's retiring from the KHL and sign a multi year deal with the Wings the next day without Mettalurg's permission. Whether or not Mettalurg could take civil action against him for breach of contract, I dunno, but that's a different matter all together. The Point is that both leagues could poach one another's players if they wanted to, but It would never happen because it's considered not cool to do so for business reasons.

In Datsyuk's case, I would suspect that he has Holland's and the Wing's permission to go play for SKA. Don't think he'd be going there otherwise. That's in essence what you've arguing though anyways.

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

From a pure hockey standpoint, what does a final year of Datsyuk accomplish for the Wings?

Not directed at me, but I'll answer anyways.

Probably not a whole lot -- he looks like a shadow of his former self at this point. Still think he should play out his contract though. I'm personally a bit salty about the whole thing, but I'll probably get over it soon enough.

 

[Boomhower]

From a pure hockey standpoint, what does a final year of Datsyuk accomplish for the Wings?

I mean he is still a top two center on this team.

My understanding of it is that there's an informal agreement between the KHL and NHL that you don't mess with other team's players that are currently under contract. In other words, while there's nothing in writing, both leagues just don't poach one another's players because it'd be a massive **** show otherwise and create a pile of uncertainty.

So technically, yes, Mozyakin could announce he's retiring from the KHL and sign a multi year deal with the Wings the next day without Mettalurg's permission. Whether or not Mettalurg could take civil action against him for breach of contract, I dunno, but that's a different matter all together. The Point is that both leagues could poach one another's players if they wanted to, but It would never happen because it's considered not cool to do so for business reasons.

In Datsyuk's case, I would suspect that he has Holland's and the Wing's permission to go play for SKA. Don't think he'd be going there otherwise. That's in essence what you've arguing though anyways.

IIHF has strict International Transfer Regulations that must be adhered too when a player is under contract. Both these leagues are governed by the IIHF, so no you cannot 'poach' each others players. A lack of agreement just means they adhere to the regular IIHF International transfer rules. (all 3 parties must agree to transfer: Player and both club teams)

A league WITH a transfer agreement, just means they automatically allow all their players to leave for the NHL whenever they want.
Individual club teams receive a flat rate fee from the NHL team that signs their player. (250K I believe)
The fee is pre determined and the same for every player.
Therefore when Laine gets drafted his club team cannot turn around and hold him ransom for millions of dollars. Thus screwing over Laine and the NHL club team that drafted him.

The KHL doesn't have an agreement with the NHL, but they are still governed by the IIHF Regulations found here.
http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Sport/2013_IIHF_International_Transfer_Regulations_20130204.pdf
*See page 9 for 'Players Under Contract'

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

I mean he is still a top two center on this team.



IIHF has strict International Transfer Regulations that must be adhered too when a player is under contract. Both these leagues are governed by the IIHF, so no you cannot 'poach' each others players. A lack of agreement just means they adhere to the regular IIHF International transfer rules. (all 3 parties must agree to transfer: Player and both club teams)

I was under the impression KHL wasn't part of that agreement, so the IIHF has no influence here whatsoever.

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-nears-new-player-transfer-agreement/c-669998

Daly said Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, France, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland and Germany are the national federations which have signed off on the new Agreement.

Daly added that members from the Russian federation said they would take the framework for the new transfer agreement to their board for consideration. The NHL has not had a transfer agreement with the Russian federation since 2004, but a Memorandum of Understanding that requires both the NHL and Kontinental Hockey League to honor signed contracts is in place.

This is from 2012 though, so maybe something has changed since then that I haven't seen.

 

[Boomhower]

I was under the impression KHL wasn't part of that agreement, so the IIHF has no influence here whatsoever.

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-nears-new-player-transfer-agreement/c-669998



This is from 2012 though, so maybe something has changed since then that I haven't seen.

Sorry I edited the bottom of my above post. Hope that clears it up.
KHL and NHL are still governed by the IIHF 'International Transfer Regulations'.

The agreements you are referring to were agreed on between the NHL and those federations, so they could circumvent IIHF transfer rules.
Basically they agree to automatically allow any player to transfer to the NHL whenever the player wants to do so. In the agreement the NHL team must pay a SET FEE to the players previous club team to complete the transfer.

Russia refused to agree because they didn't feel the 'set rate' was fair compensation. That said all International transfers (including KHL-NHL) are still governed by the regulations in that link.

 

[TheOtherOne]

From a pure hockey standpoint, what does a final year of Datsyuk accomplish for the Wings?

I'm sick of hearing this ridiculous point being made in a variety of topics. The point of anything is to make the team better. You can argue that it won't get us a Cup, but if that's your standard then 15-20 teams might as well stop showing up at game #70. For me, I want hockey, and I want the best team possible. Even if it doesn't get us a Cup.

 

[Heaton]

I'm sick of hearing this ridiculous point being made in a variety of topics. The point of anything is to make the team better. You can argue that it won't get us a Cup, but if that's your standard then 15-20 teams might as well stop showing up at game #70. For me, I want hockey, and I want the best team possible. Even if it doesn't get us a Cup.

The point is to make this team better for the long term, not just next season. Datsyuk playing next year in his final year does what? Gives us a better chance at maybe making the playoffs to lose in the 1st round while Datsyuk maybe plays 55 games? Datsyuk leaving makes this team better by forcing the team to not rely on Datsyuk when he isn't capable of making this team better.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

I'm sick of hearing this ridiculous point being made in a variety of topics. The point of anything is to make the team better. You can argue that it won't get us a Cup, but if that's your standard then 15-20 teams might as well stop showing up at game #70. For me, I want hockey, and I want the best team possible. Even if it doesn't get us a Cup.

I take it you never heard sometimes you have to get worse to get better?

 

[SimplySolace]

From a pure hockey standpoint, what does a final year of Datsyuk accomplish for the Wings?

Not wasting an asset to unload a contract of a player that was 2nd on the team in points?

The point is to make this team better for the long term, not just next season. Datsyuk playing next year in his final year does what? Gives us a better chance at maybe making the playoffs to lose in the 1st round while Datsyuk maybe plays 55 games? Datsyuk leaving makes this team better by forcing the team to not rely on Datsyuk when he isn't capable of making this team better.

This is where the asset(s) comes in.

 

[Heaton]

Not wasting an asset to unload a contract of a player that was 2nd on the team in points?



This is where the asset(s) comes in.

The team needs to lose to get better, having a 7.5m contract in dead cap space forces the Wings to be worse next year.

 

[kabidjan18]

I take it you never heard sometimes you have to get worse to get better?

I take it you believe every stray idiom you hear?

We have one bargaining chip I guess, even if it sounds very small. We can't stop him from playing in the IIHF World Championships or the Olympics (too far away anyways). We could however pressure the NHL to make him ineligible for the upcoming World Cup, as he's a retired player so he shouldn't technically be playing or receiving salary anyways. Then, because the original roster releases are unalterable, as in the teams can't change the original 16 they can only add 7, team Russia loses a spot at the World Cup and has to play with 22 players. Scorch the earth haha, if we must suffer make Team Russia suffer as well.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Yes, it's true that Datsyuk is walking out on his contact. But he is allowed to retire. Brian Rafalski also walked out on the last year of his contact with millions of dollars on the table. He also had knee problems and didn't immediately keep playing, but nobody gave him crap for retiring.

Signing any 35+ player to a multi year contract carries the risk of this cap penalty. The Wings anticipated Datsyuk would honor all 3 years, but things change.

The situation does suck, but there is nothing that can be done about it. If Datsyuk retires, he is done with the NHL. Holland can't fight to keep him here or block him from going to the KHL.

Rafalski's contract wasn't a 35+. Raf truly left money on the table or even could have tried to gut it out and go LTIR. Instead he retired. That's why no one gave him crap for it.

Datsyuk is retiring from the NHL on a 35+ contract and by the sounds of it will go play in the KHL. It's also probably not a coincidence that he's walking away from his contract after he gets the remainder of his signing bonus ($2 million) and his salary drops another $1.5 million.

Very different situations.

I know people here really like Datsyuk (I do too) and want to let him off the hook for this but the only situation where this wouldn't hurt a team is if they were full on tank mode and struggling to meet the cap floor. That's not the Wings. In virtually every other scenario taking a $7.5 million cap hit for a guy playing in Russia is a bad thing.

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

Sorry I edited the bottom of my above post. Hope that clears it up.
KHL and NHL are still governed by the IIHF 'International Transfer Regulations'.

The agreements you are referring to were agreed on between the NHL and those federations, so they could circumvent IIHF transfer rules.
Basically they agree to automatically allow any player to transfer to the NHL whenever the player wants to do so. In the agreement the NHL team must pay a SET FEE to the players previous club team to complete the transfer.

Russia refused to agree because they didn't feel the 'set rate' was fair compensation. That said all International transfers (including KHL-NHL) are still governed by the regulations in that link.

Read the link above you posted. Good info, thanks. So yeah, seems like you're right and I'm wrong.

And apparently it's the exact opposite of what I said above; the KHL adheres to IIHF regulations while the NHL doesn't. So a player needs to sign something called a transfer certificate dunno: never heard of it until now) to play for any KHL team, but that doesn't apply for any NHL team.

Guess the Wings and the NHL really could bring down the hammer on Datsyuk if they wanted to by refusing to sign off on his transfer certificate. Interesting.

Welp, guess that puts that to bed.