Datsyuk has accepted the invitation to go to the World Championship

Chance on Chance

Registered User
Jul 15, 2009
2,851
0
Canada
K it's called cap management. If Datsyuk signed 1 year deals we would have been hit with say a 10 million cap hit. He went 3 years and took the hit down to 7.5. Holland did what was needed.



If we went year to year with Pavel we wouldn't have been able to re sign Dan Cleary. :sarcasm:

You really think Pavel would be commanding 10 million a year deals? 1 year 7.5 deals would be fine for both sides. I'm disappointed with him, if he really wanted it he should have stuck to his guns and said 1 year or nothing
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
36,952
220
϶(°o°)ϵ
It's not Holland cap, it's NHL gm cap. It's what you have to do when a player wants a certain amount of money. Its how you have to do it in this day and age. The reason its 3 years long is because Datsyuk wanted that much money and could only get it by doing a three year deal. Pavel could have played for a lot less money if he was only concerned about his daughter :shakehead But it's not about the money.

True, we don't know what Datsyuk said. What we do know is what he did, which is that he agreed to a 3-year contract.

If Holland said he wanted a third year and Datsyuk agreed to it in spite of only wanting to play two, that's still on Datsyuk.

It's a 35+ contract so Holland would get stuck with the cap hit no matter how he structured the annual breakdown.

He was paid $10 MM, $7 MM and would be $5.5 MM for the third year.

The first two years had signing bonuses of $5MM and $2MM, which actually has some incentive to the player in terms of escrow retention, among other things.

Please notice that 2 of the 3 years are less actual dollars than the cap hit. All that says to me is that the GM was managing the cap. Dats was going to get his money either way, and clearly he doesn't care about that last $5 MM because he's walking away from it. He was paid an avg of $8.5 MM for two years instead of $7.5 MM for 3 years (which is more money in total by $5 MM had he stayed, so it's not just about the money).


entirely possible.

But then maybe datsyuk should have asked for less money if he wanted one year deals.

Why? This is a business, and he should get paid as well as other elite players in the NHL. He's the reason a lot of people pay a ton of money to go to games.

Let's say he wanted to play two more years, so he tells the GM two years and the amount. Holland is playing the cap squeezing game, so he adds the third year to lower the cap hit from $10 MM to $7.5 MM. The second and third years cap hits would have been less than the actual hit. That means something was going on in Holland's mind when he resigned Dats for that first year in terms of cap issues.

Because Datsyuk wanted 10 million up front?

Maybe or maybe not, but Holland may have frontloaded to get into a better cap position overall, and stretching it over 3 yrs vs 2 yrs (see my long critique above) lets him do that.

So I ask you as well--- why front load in this manner..... $10MM, $7 MM, and $5 MM (which Dats leaves on the table)?

Sorry if the idea is to call Datsyuk an idiot and his agent an idiot fine. But what contract have you ever signed in life without understanding, especially if you have a person right next to you that is supposed to understand every part of it as you are paying him a small fortune just to get it. That seems to be what is being claimed. I for one don't buy it. Sorry not getting there. He might have had a change of heart and maybe Holland should have protected himself by back-loading the contract. But I still find this situation falls at the feet of Datsyuk.

If he really wanted 1 year deals he could have bluntly only taken that. We watched Lidstrom do it. He was okay with the cap massaging and wanted the money more than likely. Only a couple people know, but pretty universally those of us that are over 18 understand unequivocally what signing your name to an agreement is.

Love Datsyuk, but I can take that out of this situation. It doesn't come off well for him at all. This has been an unmitigated disaster and seems to be continuing down that path.

Maybe he didn't quite understand the 35+ rule, but.....the GM can trade his rights, and presto! The cap hit is gone. The team only has to live with it if they can't find a bottom feeder (like Arizona) that needs to save money but has to hit the cap floor. Along the lines of that Pronger trade.

Finally, as someone else pointed out, this team is officially rebuilding. They barely made it into the playoffs. Zetterberg is a shadow of his peak days, and Franzen is unfortunately probably done forever. It is time to pay the piper for frontloading and signing those super long deals, and maybe the best time to do that is when the team really isn't much of a contender. That fantasy needs to stop.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
41,017
11,681
Ft. Myers, FL
He can trade the hit, takes some of the stench off this situation. It still appears to be a crappy ending to an incredible run here.

If they don't trade the cap hit I will be extremely angry with Holland. However, if they aren't doing that to fight an agenda for the league, while that stinks for us, long-term I understand fighting for the league partners. Something I was very critical over Devils ownership for and I am not going to be hypocritical just because I like Datsyuk a ton.

I hope he retires and we move the cap space without paying an arm and a leg. I still take issue with Datsyuk signing it and attribute the lions share of the blame on him.
 

PuckDynasty

Registered User
May 3, 2014
391
0
Because Datsyuk wanted 10 million up front?

Sorry if the idea is to call Datsyuk an idiot and his agent an idiot fine. But what contract have you ever signed in life without understanding, especially if you have a person right next to you that is supposed to understand every part of it as you are paying him a small fortune just to get it. That seems to be what is being claimed. I for one don't buy it. Sorry not getting there. He might have had a change of heart and maybe Holland should have protected himself by back-loading the contract. But I still find this situation falls at the feet of Datsyuk.

If he really wanted 1 year deals he could have bluntly only taken that. We watched Lidstrom do it. He was okay with the cap massaging and wanted the money more than likely. Only a couple people know, but pretty universally those of us that are over 18 understand unequivocally what signing your name to an agreement is.

Love Datsyuk, but I can take that out of this situation. It doesn't come off well for him at all. This has been an unmitigated disaster and seems to be continuing down that path.

Well said. I can't imagine how Wings fans would have reacted if Franzen had done something similar.

For all that Datsyuk has given the Wings, the Wings and fans have given just as much if not more to Datsyuk. To pretend like he made some great sacrifice and we owe him one by letting him just walk out on his contract is crazy. He has what he has because of the Detroit Red Wings.

Also very surprised that fans just seem to be shrugging at Datsyuk's pathetic playoff performance and finding a way to pin it on Ken Holland. He was pointless and virtually invisible. You could understand if he's injured or exhausted, but once again, not too tired or hurt to play for Russia. What about his family? It takes nothing away from what Datsyuk did in the past, but he played this year like he didn't want to be here.

Managing the cap is what a GM is supposed to do. To act like this is some rogue thing that only Ken Holland has done is ridiculous. Equally crazy to act like there's 100 teams that are 50 million under the cap and will just take his rights for nothing and Ken Holland is just an idiot if he doesn't make up for what Datsyuk is doing. He didn't know he could sign a one year deal? FFS, people are buying this? What he's saying is he could sign a 1 year deal and get the kind of money he demanded. But let's make Ken Holland the bad guy.
 

PuckDynasty

Registered User
May 3, 2014
391
0
He was paid $10 MM, $7 MM and would be $5.5 MM for the third year.

The first two years had signing bonuses of $5MM and $2MM, which actually has some incentive to the player in terms of escrow retention, among other things.

Please notice that 2 of the 3 years are less actual dollars than the cap hit. All that says to me is that the GM was managing the cap. Dats was going to get his money either way, and clearly he doesn't care about that last $5 MM because he's walking away from it. He was paid an avg of $8.5 MM for two years instead of $7.5 MM for 3 years (which is more money in total by $5 MM had he stayed, so it's not just about the money).




Why? This is a business, and he should get paid as well as other elite players in the NHL. He's the reason a lot of people pay a ton of money to go to games.

Let's say he wanted to play two more years, so he tells the GM two years and the amount. Holland is playing the cap squeezing game, so he adds the third year to lower the cap hit from $10 MM to $7.5 MM. The second and third years cap hits would have been less than the actual hit. That means something was going on in Holland's mind when he resigned Dats for that first year in terms of cap issues.



Maybe or maybe not, but Holland may have frontloaded to get into a better cap position overall, and stretching it over 3 yrs vs 2 yrs (see my long critique above) lets him do that.

So I ask you as well--- why front load in this manner..... $10MM, $7 MM, and $5 MM (which Dats leaves on the table)?



Maybe he didn't quite understand the 35+ rule, but.....the GM can trade his rights, and presto! The cap hit is gone. The team only has to live with it if they can't find a bottom feeder (like Arizona) that needs to save money but has to hit the cap floor. Along the lines of that Pronger trade.

Finally, as someone else pointed out, this team is officially rebuilding. They barely made it into the playoffs. Zetterberg is a shadow of his peak days, and Franzen is unfortunately probably done forever. It is time to pay the piper for frontloading and signing those super long deals, and maybe the best time to do that is when the team really isn't much of a contender. That fantasy needs to stop.

When the Franzen and Zetterberg deals were signed, there wasn't the cap hit penalty if a player retired before the end of the deal. That was instituted later and players signed to long term deals like Luongo were stuck for a long time. But it was only Ken Holland :shakehead
 

TheRatPoisoner

Registered User
Feb 23, 2015
2,796
239
He can trade the hit, takes some of the stench off this situation. It still appears to be a crappy ending to an incredible run here.

If they don't trade the cap hit I will be extremely angry with Holland. However, if they aren't doing that to fight an agenda for the league, while that stinks for us, long-term I understand fighting for the league partners. Something I was very critical over Devils ownership for and I am not going to be hypocritical just because I like Datsyuk a ton.

I hope he retires and we move the cap space without paying an arm and a leg. I still take issue with Datsyuk signing it and attribute the lions share of the blame on him.

If there's reasonable trade for Datsyuk's caphit to be made and Kenny doesn't do it, I'll be pissed also. Not trading his caphit "because he should retire a Red Wing" would be the equivalent of running errands for your ex-girlfriend after she broke up with you. Loyalty and civility just blurs into being spineless at a certain point.

That said, if teams are demanding an outrageous price to take Datsyuk's caphit, i could see why KH ends up deciding to eat it. If it's anything more than a 3rd or a project prospect, then I say **** it -- just bite the bullet and eat it. I think a deal can get done for a whole lot less than that, however.
 
Last edited:

BinCookin

Registered User
Feb 15, 2012
6,160
1,379
London, ON
If there's reasonable trade for Datsyuk's caphit to be made and Kenny doesn't do it, I'll be pissed also. Not trading his caphit "because he should retire a Red Wing" would be the equivalent of running errands for your ex-girlfriend after she broke up with you. Loyalty and civility just blurs into being pathetic at that point.

That said, if teams are demanding an outrageous price to take Datsyuk's caphit, i could see why KH ends up deciding to eat it. If it's anything more than a 3rd or a project prospect, then I say **** it -- just bite the bullet and eat it. I think a deal can get done for a whole lot less than that, however.

I talked with several Arizona fans, about who they wanted to resign (RFA/UFA) and their salary is at 51M in that circumstance. 52 Mil is the Cap Floor.

Arizona doesnt need Datsyuk's cap hit.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
41,017
11,681
Ft. Myers, FL
I talked with several Arizona fans, about who they wanted to resign (RFA/UFA) and their salary is at 51M in that circumstance. 52 Mil is the Cap Floor.

Arizona doesnt need Datsyuk's cap hit.

Depends on what the asset is. They don't pay him a cent in this scenario, not even the 550K they assumed with Pronger because he will be in breach. All we need is a team at 60 Million that doesn't plan on adding at the deadline. His contract works different in terms of the dump because you know zero money is going to actually go out the door. He really is the perfect guy for a floor team. But the likely going rate will still be our second round pick just to move it. Hopefully we can talk a team into liking one of the GR surplus D-man and a lower pick.

Because being without our second and third would hurt this year.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
36,952
220
϶(°o°)ϵ
When the Franzen and Zetterberg deals were signed, there wasn't the cap hit penalty if a player retired before the end of the deal. That was instituted later and players signed to long term deals like Luongo were stuck for a long time. But it was only Ken Holland :shakehead


The 35+ rule has always been a part of the cap system. The newest CBA actually has the clawback penalty so teams cannot benefit from the frontloading if a player retires; and they have the term limits now along with a different formula for year to year variance so teams can't cheat like they were doing.

Holland was one of the first, and he gave out two such contracts. Bettman even says they warned teams there might be consequences down the road, which is probably why they came down on the Lamoriello and the Devils when they really pushed that beyond anything remotely reasonable.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
36,952
220
϶(°o°)ϵ
Well said. I can't imagine how Wings fans would have reacted if Franzen had done something similar.

For all that Datsyuk has given the Wings, the Wings and fans have given just as much if not more to Datsyuk. To pretend like he made some great sacrifice and we owe him one by letting him just walk out on his contract is crazy. He has what he has because of the Detroit Red Wings.

Also very surprised that fans just seem to be shrugging at Datsyuk's pathetic playoff performance and finding a way to pin it on Ken Holland. He was pointless and virtually invisible. You could understand if he's injured or exhausted, but once again, not too tired or hurt to play for Russia. What about his family? It takes nothing away from what Datsyuk did in the past, but he played this year like he didn't want to be here.

Managing the cap is what a GM is supposed to do. To act like this is some rogue thing that only Ken Holland has done is ridiculous. Equally crazy to act like there's 100 teams that are 50 million under the cap and will just take his rights for nothing and Ken Holland is just an idiot if he doesn't make up for what Datsyuk is doing. He didn't know he could sign a one year deal? FFS, people are buying this? What he's saying is he could sign a 1 year deal and get the kind of money he demanded. But let's make Ken Holland the bad guy.

Holland will look at not just the coming year, but his cap situation going forward and when key RFAs or UFAs are due for renewal. If he can squeeze more cap space out of a situation by adding a year or two or three, he'll do it.
 

TheRatPoisoner

Registered User
Feb 23, 2015
2,796
239
I talked with several Arizona fans, about who they wanted to resign (RFA/UFA) and their salary is at 51M in that circumstance. 52 Mil is the Cap Floor.

Arizona doesnt need Datsyuk's cap hit.

Right, so they barely hit the cap floor. They still have plenty of room to take on Datsyuk's caphit. It's not like they'll being looking to acquire 20 million in cap space at the TDL or anything like that anyways. Even if they get only a 7th round pick for Datsyuk's contract, then it's still something more than they had to begin with. It's a Win-win for both teams.

And I read the thread you're talking about I'm pretty sure. Some Yotes fans were saying "it'll require a first round pick or nyquist to take Datsyuk's caphit," which is completely out to lunch. A deal better than that could be made; I guarantee it. Actually, the Wings should get Donald Trump on the case, now that I think about it.
 

chances14

Registered User
Jan 7, 2010
10,405
517
Michigan
Why? This is a business, and he should get paid as well as other elite players in the NHL. He's the reason a lot of people pay a ton of money to go to games.

.

It's called comprimising. If he wanted the extra money that's fine, but play out the the entire deal. If not, he should have taken a little less money but more flexibility in signing one year deals
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
41,017
11,681
Ft. Myers, FL
Just as a reminder since I see that as being tossed around a lot as what seems to be the ideal round often brought up where we can "stomach" moving that pick.

We don't have our third this year. It was traded for Zidlicky.

I get the feeling a low round pick and Xavier Ouellet is actually what is moved with Datsyuk. Bums me out a little because I like XO, but starting to feel he has maximized his skating to what it is unfortunately. However, if he works something out in the off-season where he gets another step we are going to look like idiots attaching him, just to get out from under Pavel ******* us by walking away from his signed agreement... I hope that doesn't happen, because again I am not going to see that as Holland's fault in that scenario.
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
13,342
925
GPP Michigan
Datsyuk's contract isn't appealing to bankrupt organizations. His salary hit is 5.5 million and his cap hit is 7.5.

I really don't see any team taking his contract unless the Wings significantly sweeten the pot.


Wings are better off in the long run holding onto Datsyuk's cap hit. Holland would just waste it on washed up garbage if he could.

He thinks the Wings runs a taxidermy shop.
 
Last edited:

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
41,017
11,681
Ft. Myers, FL
Datsyuk's contract isn't appealing to bankrupt organizations. His salary hit is 5.5 million and his cap hit is 7.5.

I really don't see any team taking his contract unless the Wings significantly sweeten the pot.

But you don't pay him a single cent...

He is like the greatest cap dump of all time in that regard for a floor team. You just get whatever other assets you ask for.

I mean Savard and Pronger actually got paid by the organizations that acquired them and they didn't get insurance for either guy, you can be certain of that given the preexisting nature of their injuries. Sure they were low money, but Datsyuk is no money. You don't pay him anything and just take the cap hit to apply toward your budget with the league.

They will still want something though.
 

lilidk

Registered User
Mar 4, 2008
10,069
3,751
Holland did his job. The player agreed to the contract. Can't respect a player who walks away from the deal he agreed to. This isn't Russia. His family wasn't held captive.

last couple seasons THE GREAT ONE wasn't great anymore , everyone has his limitation
 

SirKillalot

Registered User
Feb 27, 2008
5,864
276
Norway
Nice that he wants to play for Russia, but given how out of it he looked during the series, I don't get why he goes.

That being said, the line he played on was a awful setup.
 

Dotter

THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
Jul 2, 2014
8,643
3,142
Imprisonment, TN
goo.gl
Normally, that would be true, but given that the three years are each at different amounts, I think this was a Holland cap massaging special, just like the Franzen and Zetterberg contracts were cap circumvention (outlawed by the CBA going forward). In this case, without knowing what Dats wanted and what Holland thought he need for cap management, we can't really know whom to blame.

Why does anyone have to be blamed? Everyone was ecstatic that Datsyuk was locked in for 3 more years at the time, and was a good contract in that CBA era.

The CBA has been revised without a grandfather clause and Datsyuk's health/circumstances has changed. It's like blaming someone for not having a magic crystal ball. I have no ill feelings towards Datsyuk and I don't care about next years cap hit. Wings need a down year to really re-tool.

Who knows, maybe Nyquist will step up again like he did the year with all the injuries. Not all doom and gloom for me.
 

stobzilla

Registered User
Apr 22, 2016
5
0
If we let all players hitting UFA go (apart from maybe Miller because he is good on the PK) and keep our RFA's then even with Dats' cap hit we can maybe make a couple of moves along with fast tracking some prospects that can keep us competitive.

The ugly truth is that there is $10 million tied up in two players declining rapidly and that is Z and Kronner. Those deals are just ugly.

In terms of just Dats, I don't blame him or Holland, I believe at the time both had every reason to believe that although the Russia pull was strong that Pav would do the three and have a swansong in the mother land in his last couple years. He said as much in an interview that his injury and subsequent time spent with his daughter was what changed his mind, there can be no accounting for that on either end. A mistake in hindsight ? Certainly, but every GM is guilty of those.
 

TheRatPoisoner

Registered User
Feb 23, 2015
2,796
239
last couple seasons THE GREAT ONE wasn't great anymore , everyone has his limitation

What does that have to do with the contract he negotiated though?

The ugly truth is that there is $10 million tied up in two players declining rapidly and that is Z and Kronner. Those deals are just ugly.

Those contracts are fine. That's getting off topic though.

In terms of just Dats, I don't blame him or Holland

Holland negotiated the contact in good faith and said agreement has been broken by Datsyuk. There's no way KH is even partially at fault in this whole debacle.
 
Last edited:

HIFE

Registered User
May 10, 2011
3,220
259
Detroit, MI
There's obviously mitigating personal factors for Datsyuk, but only one of the two parties is breaking the contract. Figuring out who to blame isn't that difficult to me.

It's 100% Datsyuk. Now, whether someone is mad at him or holds it against him is a whole other thing.

Exactly. Datsyuk admitted to it and is sorry he signed 3 years when his heart wasn't there. Speculation of the circumstances surrounding the deal may be interesting but do not shed Pavel of the blame he's owned. The man isn't happy here, he made a mistake like we all have. Let him go.

I'm in the group who could care less how this affects the Wings. For me the last years Datsyuk was the Red Wings. The inspiration he's gifted Detroit and the hockey world at large is immeasurable. NOTHING could tarnish his reputation and legacy with the Wings. Pavel Datsyuk is the epitome of hockey legend I could give 2 ***** how his early departure affects us. And I will say the same thing if Zetter decides to retire this season as well. I don't play favorites with either of our superstars, they are both legends.

Hopefully he can have fun again playing hockey and being with his friends and family. Ypa Pavel!
 
Jul 30, 2005
17,711
4,675
I mean, what is location, really

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad