Player Discussion Darnell Nurse - To bridge or not to bridge, that is the question.

[Tobias Kahun]

You have to realize Hanifin's age. Nurse was just starting to get his feet wet in the league at the same age. Hanifin now has 3 good seasons under his belt and has progressed each year.

As far as offensive vs defensive dmen. For me I like dmen who are mobile(good skating) with good passing skills, above average accurate shot, and the ability to be a threat to pinch down low. Look at the best dmen in the history of the league and most will have those qualities. The reason they're so important is because the dman is the key in transitioning the puck. If you get one who can consistently beat forecheckers back to the puck, wheel with it and make a 50-100 foot pass consistently. Watch out because your not going to spend a lot of time in your own zone. On top of that its far easier to teach an offensive dman to play defence, then it is to teach a defensive dman to play offence.

Now dont get me wrong there is a place for defensive dmen. Theyre needed on the PK for breaking up cycles and being partners to the offensive guys who sometimes take chances. They also never get paid top dollar, and are usually a complimentary player to the offensive guy on the pairing. As Ive said before on this board if Nurse would sign long term around 4M-4.75M Id have no issue with that deal, ditto to a bridge deal at 3M or less.

Also your example about filling out the 6 d spots above is funny. Who would you rather have Shawn Horcoff or Joe Sakic? Or another way of saying it Erik Karlsson or Darnell Nurse?

3 good seasons under his belt? Hanifin got killed in a sheltered role last year, if that is good, Nurse just had a great season by your standards.

You bitch and complain everytime Nurse makes a mistake, I would hate to see how you would react to Pulock when he does that every shift? Or would you conveniently ignore it since you don't have a vendetta against that player.

 

[Raab]

3 good seasons under his belt? Hanifin got killed in a sheltered role last year, if that is good, Nurse just had a great season by your standards.

You ***** and complain everytime Nurse makes a mistake, I would hate to see how you would react to Pulock when he does that every shift? Or would you conveniently ignore it since you don't have a vendetta against that player.

I dont complain about every play. But the fact is Nurse's bread and butter is being a defensive defenceman solid in his own zone. Pulocks game is more about the big point shot. Id call out Pulock if he consistently whiffed on one timers on the PP, the same way I call out Nurse for missed coverage that results in a goal. No one wants to admit that he looked horrible at the WC's and was demoted from the top pairing to almost being benched. On top of that he had a really bad 2nd half of the season.

IMO this fantasy that Nurse is some offensive juggernaut dman needs to die. He needs to admit to himself that he's a defensive dman and focus on being the best shutdown dman in the league. If he focused on his own zone play and made that a priority then maybe he'd be worth the money of a 5M+ deal. The fact is he still has break downs in the defensive zone, and isnt very good offensively works against him. No one is going to discount his value if he goes out there and becomes Kevin Lowe version 2.0. Right now he's not to that point.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I dont complain about every play. But the fact is Nurse's bread and butter is being a defensive defenceman solid in his own zone. Pulocks game is more about the big point shot. Id call out Pulock if he consistently whiffed on one timers on the PP, the same way I call out Nurse for missed coverage that results in a goal. No one wants to admit that he looked horrible at the WC's and was demoted from the top pairing to almost being benched. On top of that he had a really bad 2nd half of the season.

IMO this fantasy that Nurse is some offensive juggernaut dman needs to die. He needs to admit to himself that he's a defensive dman and focus on being the best shutdown dman in the league. If he focused on his own zone play and made that a priority then maybe he'd be worth the money of a 5M+ deal. The fact is he still has break downs in the defensive zone, and isnt very good offensively works against him. No one is going to discount his value if he goes out there and becomes Kevin Lowe version 2.0. Right now he's not to that point.

Yet you wont admit he looked very good in the first half of the season, when you continued to complain about every little thing he did wrong.

 

[Raab]

Yet you wont admit he looked very good in the first half of the season, when you continued to complain about every little thing he did wrong.

Small sample size, remember the Nilsson-Gagner-Cogliano line? Lots of players play well in small stretches. Also I don't think it's a coincidence he looked his best while Larsson was playing well.

And holy hyperbole much. If I complained about every little mistake Nurse, I'd have over 100,000 posts. Hockey players even Mcdavid make several errors during a game.

 

[nabob]

This is true , but you can not let a player hold the team hostage . I love Nurse . Don't want to trade him but to date he hasn't shown enough to be worth 5.5 . I guess you can say you are paying for potential but how much potential does Nurse have ? I see him at best becoming a better skating Larsson .

Having said the above I do not see the argument that Hanifin is better then Nurse so he he scored 10 goals but he was on the ice for 20 more against so you trading 10 goals for 30 goals against while Nurse was on the ice for 15 more for . What would you rather ice 6 Nurse D or 6 Hanifin's . I think you win more games with Nurse and Nurse will be better suited for playoff style hockey in my opinion

I don’t think he ever is as good in his own zone as Larsson but I think even last year he was better offensively than Larsson has ever shown in the NHL.

I think if Nurse was to ever get the chance of playing with a true top pairing Dman that he would get a lot more attention around the league. Carrying Jultz and Benning on his back his first two seasons wasn’t a great assignment for a young Dman.

 

[Raab]

I don’t think he ever is as good in his own zone as Larsson but I think even last year he was better offensively than Larsson has ever shown in the NHL.

I think if Nurse was to ever get the chance of playing with a true top pairing Dman that he would get a lot more attention around the league. Carrying Jultz and Benning on his back his first two seasons wasn’t a great assignment for a young Dman.

If he ever got as good as Larsson in his own end and could keep his offensive contributions between the 20-30 point mark. He'd be one hell of a dman. Nurse could learn a bit from Larsson about using his body better. Larsson has brought ALOT of physicality to the backend.

 

[iCanada]

Raab, we get it. One time you dreamed Nurse kicked your dog or something and you irrationally hate him.

No offense but I don't think you bring anything to the conversation. You'd find a way to grill the guy if he scored 60 points next year and won the Norris.

 

[Raab]

Raab, we get it. One time you dreamed Nurse kicked your dog or something and you irrationally hate him.

No offense but I don't think you bring anything to the conversation. You'd find a way to grill the guy if he scored 60 points next year and won the Norris.

How is it grilling the guy to say he should focus on defensive zone coverage and add some more physicality to his game? If he was rock solid in the defensive zone like Larsson, he'd be worth quite a lot.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

How is it grilling the guy to say he should focus on defensive zone coverage and add some more physicality to his game? If he was rock solid in the defensive zone like Larsson, he'd be worth quite a lot.

Cause then when he works at those and gets better, you would be like LOL Pulock had 8 more points even though he ended up a -25.

 

[iCanada]

How is it grilling the guy to say he should focus on defensive zone coverage and add some more physicality to his game? If he was rock solid in the defensive zone like Larsson, he'd be worth quite a lot.

Its the whole body of work of your posting on Nurse. Doesn't matter what the kid does, the goal posts move and he's never helping and should be traded.

Like he stands up for his captain a few years ago and drops Polak he's a thug taking dumb penalties and hurting his team. He's our Best Defensive defender for half the season and he's not scoring enough. He starts scoring, and hes not physical or defensive enough.

Your bias on the player is blinding at its absolute minimum, and constantly derails the thread on ridiculous tangents.

 

[Raab]

Cause then when he works at those and gets better, you would be like LOL Pulock had 8 more points even though he ended up a -25.

You realize Pulock was the Isles best dman in the second half of the season. Will be really interested to see how he develops. I had him as a player similar to Boychuk.

 

[ConnorMcMullet]

You realize Pulock was the Isles best dman in the second half of the season. Will be really interested to see how he develops. I had him as a player similar to Boychuk.

You realize Nurse was the Oilers best defenseman arguably the entire year. Will be really interested to see how he develops.

 

[bobbythebrain]

You realize Nurse was the Oilers best defenseman arguably the entire year. Will be really interested to see how he develops.

No he wasn't. Larsson was miles above everyone the first quarter. Playing with boat anchors , carrying his partners.

Nurse played very good for another 2 months also, but then nose dived

I would say Larsson, Nurse and even Russel split best dman in stretches last year...but nobody was clear cut winner

Nurse was most def not the best dman all year..and it's debatable if he would even be in that category without Larsson

 

[McDNicks17]

No he wasn't. Larsson was miles above everyone the first quarter. Playing with boat anchors , carrying his partners.

Nurse played very good for another 2 months also, but then nose dived

I would say Larsson, Nurse and even Russel split best dman in stretches last year...but nobody was clear cut winner

Nurse was most def not the best dman all year..and it's debatable if he would even be in that category without Larsson

Nurse was top 5(and mostly top 3) in the league in almost every single advanced stat for the the first half of the season without Larsson.

His numbers took a big hit after he was put with Larsson for the second half.

 

[guymez]

Nurse was top 5(and mostly top 3) in the league in almost every single advanced stat for the the first half of the season without Larsson.

His numbers took a big hit after he was put with Larsson for the second half.

Probably because his quality of comp went up. Nurse isnt ready for top pairing assignments.
He is a #4/5 dman right now (more 4 than 5) IMO with room to grow.

 

[McIce Whole]

Probably because his quality of comp went up. Nurse isnt ready for top pairing assignments.
He is a #4/5 dman right now (more 4 than 5) IMO with room to grow.

I’m personally not a huge fan of Nurse but he is well above a number 5 IMO. He’s easily a second pairing dmen and a pretty good one at that.

 

[McIce Whole]

The issue I have with Nurse is that he will never be an offensive guy for this club. He doesn’t possess the shot or the hockey IQ to ever be a top pairing dmen.

Nurse has exceptional athleticism and that will always be his bread a butter. Big guy, can skate well and was good at breaking the puck out alone cause of that but once he gains the blue line, he’s a lost cause. He doesn’t have the IQ to make plays and leaves you wanting more.

I agree with Raabhart, If Nurse can improve his physicality and shut down game along with bringing the kind of offensive numbers he did last year, he’s going to be very valuable to us.

But I just don’t see him being anything more than a 25-30 point, shut down dmen. Not a bad thing to have. With that said, I hope he proves me wrong. I love Nurse’s personality, his compete level and his willingness to stand up for his teammates.

 

[guymez]

I’m personally not a huge fan of Nurse but he is well above a number 5 IMO. He’s easily a second pairing dmen and a pretty good one at that.

Yes...that is why I said more #4 than #5. I think he can be a solid #3 or possibly even a #2 if he continues to progress.
Still some holes in his game though...he needs experience.

 

[Fourier]

In 2 years it will. A lot changes in 2 years and the cap rises + he improves as well. I think his agent and Nurse believes in himself too much to agree to a $4-4.5 million long term deal now. That's basically taking $20 million off the table... which is too much of a discount over where he'll likely be at in 2 years.

At this time there are 12 defensemen in the whole league making $7M. If you account for inflation that might put the equivalent amount in two years at about $6.2M in today's dollars. That means there are 19 defensemen making the kind of money you are suggesting Nurse might get as an RFA. He is no where near in that league. And to get there he at the very least needs to be a 45 point defenseman. Frankly, I don't see him hitting much over 30 and possibly less if he gets no 1st pp time. In 2 years I suspect $5-5.5M is probably what you are looking at if he continues to progress defensively.

 

[Fourier]

I don't think it will take a 50 pt dman to be worth $7 million... especially not in two more years in a rising cap environment. We'll have to see on that though.

Matheson is already a ~$5 million dman (signing last year) and his level is currently no better than Nurse... so if Nurse signs a similar deal in 2 more years, cap inflation alone would put him well above $5 million... assuming zero improvement in his gameplay.


Taking a 2 year bridge deal (that the team likely wants him to sign) is theoretically twice as bad because you have twice the amount of time to suffer that "career ending injury".

I agree that it's a risk of course either way. Any time you are on a short term deal it's a risk because you are hoping for improvement vs regression and a healthy year instead of an injury filled one.

Plenty of NHL players are on short term deals though (1 or 2 year deals)... especially RFA players which basically comes with the territory as they are trying to establish themselves before signing more lucrative long term deals.

Matheson just signed for 8 years. They expect him to get better as well. That is factored into the salary, just like it was for Leon. So you are double dipping here using this example and giving Nurse credit for both cap inflation and improvement.

Two years out the Matheson deal in worth about $5.3M.

 

[Throttlehead]

Its very odd that they haven't signed Nurse yet. Its obvious they have to bridge him and they cant pay more than 4ml per year (or am I wrong about that)? There has to be something more to this delay, its makes no sense.

 

[nexttothemoon]

Its very odd that they haven't signed Nurse yet. Its obvious they have to bridge him and they cant pay more than 4ml per year (or am I wrong about that)? There has to be something more to this delay, its makes no sense.

Well technically they can wait until they put Sekera on LTIR and sign Nurse to whatever deal they want to... they have access to $5.5 million in LTIR cap space once that happens so a long term deal isn't out of the question.

They'd have to do some cap juggling once Sekera comes back this season (if he comes back)... but so be it... teams have done that before and there's even a likely chance that over the course of the season another player could be on LTIR as well... or trades could occur etc. It's a long season and the landscape can change fairly quickly as the season progresses.

 

[nexttothemoon]

Matheson just signed for 8 years. They expect him to get better as well. That is factored into the salary, just like it was for Leon. So you are double dipping here using this example and giving Nurse credit for both cap inflation and improvement.

Two years out the Matheson deal in worth about $5.3M.

Matheson signed last October... before the "Vegas upswing" occured. I think it's a pretty rosy cap environment in the NHL currently and expansion obviously went better than even the most optimistic could have expected.

That could all change in a couple years but the trend is up with another expansion team coming on the horizon and I think if Matheson signed this October instead of last October, he'd already be over $5 million long term rather than under it.

I think Matheson would likely have signed for Skjei type money if he'd have signed this October rather than last October.

 

[Fourier]

Matheson signed last October... before the "Vegas upswing" occured. I think it's a pretty rosy cap environment in the NHL currently and expansion obviously went better than even the most optimistic could have expected.

That could all change in a couple years but the trend is up with another expansion team coming on the horizon and I think if Matheson signed this October instead of last October, he'd already be over $5 million long term rather than under it.

I think Matheson would likely have signed for Skjei type money if he'd have signed this October rather than last October.

There was no Vegas upswing. It was just not as big a down swing as expected. One of the big factors in determining how much the cap will go up is the $CDN. Right now it is down slightly from the year over year number for the 2017-2018 season. If that stays as it is and the nominal growth rate is about the same as last year you can expect the cap to rise about 5% or so.

Skjei is actually a pretty decent name to bring up in the conversation. He and Nurse have some similar characteristics. Both are big guys who can really skate. But Skjei has a 39 point season under his belt. And if you project his salary ahead two years you are at about $5.8M, not $7M.

 

[McTonyBrar]

Its very odd that they haven't signed Nurse yet. Its obvious they have to bridge him and they cant pay more than 4ml per year (or am I wrong about that)? There has to be something more to this delay, its makes no sense.

I think they're working on something else before getting Nurse's contract official