Player Discussion Darnell Nurse - To bridge or not to bridge, that is the question.

[VainGretzky]

How? If you waive Koskinen to make up room, you need a backup goaltender for game 1.

Every year there is panic about a team to be Cap compliant by season opener Oilers will not have a problem

 

[tabs]

Every year there is panic about a team to be Cap compliant by season opener Oilers will not have a problem

I never said there was any panic. You claimed we wouldn’t need Montoya after waiving Koskinen.

 

[VainGretzky]

I never said there was any panic. You claimed we wouldn’t need Montoya after waiving Koskinen.

Why would we need to waive Koskinen

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Why would we need to waive Koskinen

He's waiver exempt so we could send him down unless we wanted to waive him with the purpose of buying him out which would be stupid.

 

[Stud Muffin]

He's waiver exempt so we could send him down unless we wanted to waive him with the purpose of buying him out which would be stupid.

Hes not waiver exempt. He’s too old to be exempt.

 

[VainGretzky]

this offseason sure seems to be going by slower than others

 

[McDNicks17]

Hes not waiver exempt. He’s too old to be exempt.

He has one year or 56* NHL games left on his waiver exemption.

 

[nexttothemoon]

He has one year or 4 NHL games left on his waiver exemption.

Mikko Koskinen Waivers Calculator - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

1 year or 56 games.

 

[tabs]

Why would we need to waive Koskinen

Did you even read my original post? It was suggested by another poster that we could send him down as a paper transaction and save 1.4 million in cap so that we can have more to sign Nurse long term. I replied with the fact that you wouldn’t save anything since you’d then have to call up Montoya. Then you chimed in.

 

[Spawn]

How? If you waive Koskinen to make up room, you need a backup goaltender for game 1.

These things are all paper transactions. For the Oilers to make full use of Sekera's LTIR they need to be as close to the cap as they can be on day one of the season without going over. When they send down waiver exempt guys, it doesn't need to be for any set period of time.

Let's say the Oilers signed Nurse to an amount that would puts them over the cap at ~80.5M

1) Right before the end of training camp, they send Koskinen to the minors bringing their cap hit down below the cap as close to 79.5M as you can get.
2) When day one of the season starts, you put Sekera on LTIR, effectively getting his entire cap hit in extra cap space to use. Once you've done that you recall Koskinen immediately. Your cap hit is at 80.5M but you have ~85M to spend.

I don't think there is anything stipulating that Koskinen needs to be down for the first game of the season. He just needs to be in the minors at the time Sekera is put on LTIR. Since he's waivers exempt, there is no 24 hour waiting period to see if he clears, or anything like that. You don't need to call up Montoya or sign a different backup for a day or anything like that. Puljujarvi is also waivers exempt, so he could similarly be used in such a paper transaction. The moment Sekera is on LTIR you just recall the player.

@Fourier would likely be able to give a more accurate breakdown.

 

[tabs]

These things are all paper transactions. For the Oilers to make full use of Sekera's LTIR they need to be as close to the cap as they can be on day one of the season without going over. When they send down waiver exempt guys, it doesn't need to be for any set period of time.

Let's say the Oilers signed Nurse to an amount that would puts them over the cap at ~80.5M

1) Right before the end of training camp, they send Koskinen to the minors bringing their cap hit down below the cap as close to 79.5M as you can get.
2) When day one of the season starts, you put Sekera on LTIR, effectively getting his entire cap hit in extra cap space to use. Once you've done that you recall Koskinen immediately. Your cap hit is at 80.5M but you have ~85M to spend.

I don't think there is anything stipulating that Koskinen needs to be down for the first game of the season. He just needs to be in the minors at the time Sekera is put on LTIR. Since he's waivers exempt, there is no 24 hour waiting period to see if he clears, or anything like that.

Anyways... that's my understanding of the situation. I could be wrong though. @Fourier would likely be able to give a more accurate breakdown.

Thanks for the breakdown. I was under the impression that you’re forced to play game 1 of your season with your cap compliant roster. If that were the case you’d need a backup goalie to dress. If @Fourier can confirm it one way or the other that would be appreciated.

We don’t play on day 1 of the NHL season, so if that isn’t the case then there is no issue with signing Nurse to a long term deal at all. That’s why I figured you have to be compliant for game 1, to prevent teams from gaming the system.

 

[McDNicks17]

Mikko Koskinen Waivers Calculator - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

1 year or 56 games.

Thanks.

I wanted to subtract the 56 from the 60 required games for some reason.

 

[Fourier]

These things are all paper transactions. For the Oilers to make full use of Sekera's LTIR they need to be as close to the cap as they can be on day one of the season without going over. When they send down waiver exempt guys, it doesn't need to be for any set period of time.

Let's say the Oilers signed Nurse to an amount that would puts them over the cap at ~80.5M

1) Right before the end of training camp, they send Koskinen to the minors bringing their cap hit down below the cap as close to 79.5M as you can get.
2) When day one of the season starts, you put Sekera on LTIR, effectively getting his entire cap hit in extra cap space to use. Once you've done that you recall Koskinen immediately. Your cap hit is at 80.5M but you have ~85M to spend.

I don't think there is anything stipulating that Koskinen needs to be down for the first game of the season. He just needs to be in the minors at the time Sekera is put on LTIR. Since he's waivers exempt, there is no 24 hour waiting period to see if he clears, or anything like that. You don't need to call up Montoya or sign a different backup for a day or anything like that. Puljujarvi is also waivers exempt, so he could similarly be used in such a paper transaction. The moment Sekera is on LTIR you just recall the player.

@Fourier would likely be able to give a more accurate breakdown.

I think your explanation is pretty well right on though I think you meant your cap hit would be $79.5M and you have $85M to spend. Though that is only the case if after sending down a player your cap hit was exactly $79.5M. In practice it would be less but as you say the game is to start as close to $79.5M as possible. That said LTIR is a quirky thing. It is not really explained in the CBA to the same degree as other aspects are.

Here is an example: Right now the Oilers have $3.978M in cap space with 22 on the roster. Lest say that this is their group they will start the season with excluding Nurse. Assume that Nurse signs a bridge at $3.75M. They are actually under the cap by $.228M at the start of their season. They can then put Sekera on LTIR and their new Accrued Cap Space Limit ACLS would be $79.5M-$.228M=$79.272M. They get $5.5M for relief giving them a new effective cap of $84.272M.

Suppose instead that Nurse signs for $4.5M. Technically the team is now over the cap by $.522M. On the last day of camp they could send someone down. The two waiver exempt guys are Puljujarvi and Koskinen. If they send down Puljujarvi they would be $.403M under the cap giving then a new ACSL of $79.097M and a new effective cap limit of $84.597M. They then recall Puljujarvi and go from there. If they sent down Koskinen instead they would have a new ACSL of $78.997M and a new effective cap of $84.497M. So the best move would be to send down Puljujarvi.

On the other hand if Nurse signed for $5.5M then sending down Puljujarvi or Koskinen would not be enough so it would have to a trade of one of the guys making more than $1M. (Check my numbers though because its late and I did this in my head which is always a scary proposition! My original post was wrong on the Koskinen numbers since I neglected to factor in the maximum salary relief you get from an AHL guy. )

 

[nexttothemoon]

The season likely begins on say Oct 1st for all teams (not sure of the exact day)... not on the day each team plays their 1st game.

All teams have to be compliant to the cap on that "day 1".

I'm assuming all this but it makes sense to have every team have the same starting day to the season for cap purposes.


That's why teams can juggle cap space by doing paper transactions with waivers exempt players without it affecting their rosters because they'll have all that sorted out by the time the puck drops in their 1st games... several days later.

 

[Spawn]

I think your explanation is pretty well right on though I think you meant your cap hit would be $79.5M and you have $85M to spend. Though that is only the case if after sending down a player your cap hit was exactly $79.5M. In practice it would be less but as you say the game is to start as close to $79.5M as possible. That said LTIR is a quirky thing. It is not really explained in the CBA to the same degree as other aspects are.

Here is an example: Right now the Oilers have $3.978M in cap space with 22 on the roster. Lest say that this is their group they will start the season with excluding Nurse. Assume that Nurse signs a bridge at $3.75M. They are actually under the cap by $.228M at the start of their season. They can then put Sekera on LTIR and their new Accrued Cap Space Limit ACLS would be $79.5M-$.228M=$79.272M. They get $5.5M for relief giving them a new effective cap of $84.272M.

Suppose instead that Nurse signs for $4.5M. Technically the team is now over the cap by $.522M. On the last day of camp they could send someone down. The two waiver exempt guys are Puljujarvi and Koskinen. If they send down Puljujarvi they would be $.403M under the cap giving then a new ACSL of $79.097M and a new effective cap limit of $84.597M. They then recall Puljujarvi and go from there. If they sent down Koskinen instead they would have a new ACSL of $78.022M and a new effective cap of $83.522M. So the best move would be to send down Puljujarvi.

On the other hand if Nurse signed for $5.5M then sending down Puljujarvi would not be enough so it would have to be Koskinen or someone who is not waiver exempt. (Check my numbers though because its late and I did this in my head which is always a scary proposition!)

Thanks and yeah, I probably made a mistake in my numbers. I was just trying to illustrate that we'd be okay to start the year from game 1.

The start of the season wont be an issue cap wise however the Oilers decide to approach it it would see. Whether long term or short term with Nurse.

The real question I have is what happens if the Oilers do this type of transaction and Sekera came back at some point in the season? That's something I imagine you could explain and I probably still wouldn't be able to quite grasp.

 

[nexttothemoon]

LTIR and capspace issues is one area where we don't have to feel stupid if we get it wrong as well. Most teams hire someone (for I assume 6 figures) that keeps a watch on all that and they likely have a thick book with formulas to help guide them. All we can really do is make logical best guesses and sometimes logic isn't really the best guide for how some of these arcane rules work.

 

[Fourier]

Thanks and yeah, I probably made a mistake in my numbers. I was just trying to illustrate that we'd be okay to start the year from game 1.

The start of the season wont be an issue cap wise however the Oilers decide to approach it it would see. Whether long term or short term with Nurse.

The real question I have is what happens if the Oilers do this type of transaction and Sekera came back at some point in the season? That's something I imagine you could explain and I probably still wouldn't be able to quite grasp.

If Sekera is declared fit to return then he has to be added to he roster but to do so the Oilers would have to be cap compliant at that time. LTIR does not save you space and it is unlikely that the Oilers would be saving cap space once they replace Sekera. If Nurse signs for more than $3.9M this is a problem. They could buy more space by going with a 22 man roster but not much. And at that point they would have no space for short term injury relief so the only way signing Nurse for more than a bridge makes sense is if they are sure Sekera is done for the year.

The other thing that comes into play are performance bonuses. This injury means that the Oilers will quite likely carry on overage into next year. The more Nurse gets the more this might be.

 

[tabs]

I think your explanation is pretty well right on though I think you meant your cap hit would be $79.5M and you have $85M to spend. Though that is only the case if after sending down a player your cap hit was exactly $79.5M. In practice it would be less but as you say the game is to start as close to $79.5M as possible. That said LTIR is a quirky thing. It is not really explained in the CBA to the same degree as other aspects are.

Here is an example: Right now the Oilers have $3.978M in cap space with 22 on the roster. Lest say that this is their group they will start the season with excluding Nurse. Assume that Nurse signs a bridge at $3.75M. They are actually under the cap by $.228M at the start of their season. They can then put Sekera on LTIR and their new Accrued Cap Space Limit ACLS would be $79.5M-$.228M=$79.272M. They get $5.5M for relief giving them a new effective cap of $84.272M.

Suppose instead that Nurse signs for $4.5M. Technically the team is now over the cap by $.522M. On the last day of camp they could send someone down. The two waiver exempt guys are Puljujarvi and Koskinen. If they send down Puljujarvi they would be $.403M under the cap giving then a new ACSL of $79.097M and a new effective cap limit of $84.597M. They then recall Puljujarvi and go from there. If they sent down Koskinen instead they would have a new ACSL of $78.022M and a new effective cap of $83.522M. So the best move would be to send down Puljujarvi.

On the other hand if Nurse signed for $5.5M then sending down Puljujarvi would not be enough so it would have to be Koskinen or someone who is not waiver exempt. (Check my numbers though because its late and I did this in my head which is always a scary proposition!)

Thanks for the explanation. That’s pretty much how I had it working in my head as well. The confusion I think came from whether we have to be cap compliant for our first game, or if it just needs to be cap compliant by the first day of the season (which we don’t play on). If we have to be compliant for our first game, waiving Koskinen wouldn’t work because we’d have to call up Montoya as a backup to play game 1, and that would negate any cap savings, correct? Again, if we don’t need to be cap compliant for game 1, then there is no issue at all.

 

[tabs]

If Sekera is declared fit to return then he has to be added to he roster but to do so the Oilers would have to be cap compliant at that time. LTIR does not save you space and it is unlikely that the Oilers would be saving cap space once they replace Sekera. If Nurse signs for more than $3.9M this is a problem. They could buy more space by going with a 22 man roster but not much. And at that point they would have no space for short term injury relief so the only way signing Nurse for more than a bridge makes sense is if they are sure Sekera is done for the year.

The other thing that comes into play are performance bonuses. This injury means that the Oilers will quite likely carry on overage into next year. The more Nurse gets the more this might be.

If Sekera is getting close to being fit to return sometime this year, the team would know well in advance and it would allow for Chia to make some trades to shed cap. If Sekera is getting close to returning and it is after the TDL, then it’s very close to the end of the season and I’d imagine they’d just hold him back from returning.

 

[Fourier]

Thanks for the explanation. That’s pretty much how I had it working in my head as well. The confusion I think came from whether we have to be cap compliant for our first game, or if it just needs to be cap compliant by the first day of the season (which we don’t play on). If we have to be compliant for our first game, waiving Koskinen wouldn’t work because we’d have to call up Montoya as a backup to play game 1, and that would negate any cap savings, correct? Again, if we don’t need to be cap compliant for game 1, then there is no issue at all.

You are correct that if it was Koskinen sent down and the Oilers had to bring up Montoya there would be no saving since they would each have the same AHL savings at $1.025M. In fact in my original post I stupidly neglected this detail. And yes the need for compliance is one day one rather than game one.

 

[Fourier]

If Sekera is getting close to being fit to return sometime this year, the team would know well in advance and it would allow for Chia to make some trades to shed cap. If Sekera is getting close to returning and it is after the TDL, then it’s very close to the end of the season and I’d imagine they’d just hold him back from returning.

The problem with the "making a trade scenario" is that they don't have a lot of good options in that respect. If they were to sign Nurse at say $5M they would probably need to clear $1.5-2M in cap space to make it work once he came back to compensate for the $1M+ cap overage and to give them some cushion for short term injury relief.

That means that they have to trade someone like Benning or Kassian. After those guys there is no easy in season trade to be made unless you are prepared to take a big hit on the trade.

 

[tabs]

The problem with the "making a trade scenario" is that they don't have a lot of good options in that respect. If they were to sign Nurse at say $5M they would probably need to clear $1.5-2M in cap space to make it work once he came back to compensate for the $1M+ cap overage and to give them some cushion for short term injury relief.

That means that they have to trade someone like Benning or Kassian. After those guys there is no easy in season trade to be made unless you are prepared to take a big hit on the trade.

Yes, that’s fair. But I feel like having to trade Kassian or waiving Aberg and Rattie is a small risk to an unlikely scenario of Sekera healing quicker than expected and forcing our hand by coming back before the end of the season.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

The problem with the "making a trade scenario" is that they don't have a lot of good options in that respect. If they were to sign Nurse at say $5M they would probably need to clear $1.5-2M in cap space to make it work once he came back to compensate for the $1M+ cap overage and to give them some cushion for short term injury relief.

That means that they have to trade someone like Benning or Kassian. After those guys there is no easy in season trade to be made unless you are prepared to take a big hit on the trade.

Oilers won’t have 1m+ in bonus’

 

[PaPaDee]

The problem with the "making a trade scenario" is that they don't have a lot of good options in that respect. If they were to sign Nurse at say $5M they would probably need to clear $1.5-2M in cap space to make it work once he came back to compensate for the $1M+ cap overage and to give them some cushion for short term injury relief.

That means that they have to trade someone like Benning or Kassian. After those guys there is no easy in season trade to be made unless you are prepared to take a big hit on the trade.

Another factor to consider is if players on ELC hit their bonuses. I believe those can be deferred to the following year, but from what I recall ELC bonuses have different implications around LTIR cap relief.

 

[Fourier]

Oilers won’t have 1m+ in bonus’

The comment had nothing to do with bonuses. Right now the Oilers have $3.978M in cap space. If Nurse signed for $5M for example, they would be over the cap by $1.022M if Sekera came back. They would have to shed that.