Dark Side of the Ring - Viceland show

[sabremike]

The plague of people trying to parrot Meltzer really can't go soon enough. The guy is a great historian for wrestling but in matters of opinion he's just like anyone else. It is annoying that people buy his crap when it comes to justifying things he wants to praise but really can't based on quality by citing money or, even worse, "it worked for the people in the audience". This is only selectively done deending on Melzter's opinion of the wrestler and the company they work for of course but it still gets regurgitated by fan insiders



Not remotely a fact, see the Nation of Domination for instance, and what exactly is suggested otherwise? Surely it's not whether the angle was good or not, because it is ridiculous to attempt to use money as a proxy for quality. It would also be ridiculous to suggest that something was good or bad based on whether anyone else has successfully pulled it off since, even if your point was accurate in the first place.

The Nation of Domination couldn't draw money if you dipped them in glue and rolled them in Fort Knox untill The Rock heel turn (which was after the whole racial aspects with the Gang Wars that was among the shittiest angles a major promotion has run in the past 30 years was dropped). In the 80's racial angles may have worked, by even the early 90's they caused revulsion (remember the crowd "That's too far" at that godawful Jinder Mahal angle making racist comments about Nakamura?)

 

[JackSlater]

The Nation of Domination couldn't draw money if you dipped them in glue and rolled them in Fort Knox untill The Rock heel turn (which was after the whole racial aspects with the Gang Wars that was among the shittiest angles a major promotion has run in the past 30 years was dropped). In the 80's racial angles may have worked, by even the early 90's they caused revulsion (remember the crowd "That's too far" at that godawful Jinder Mahal angle making racist comments about Nakamura?)

The Nation of Domination didn't "bomb", which is what you implied. Your ramblings about drawing money don't make your implication any less wrong. Your moralizing about the horror of Jinder Mahal making fun of Nakamura is at least giving me a laugh though so that is appreciated, though I certain;y don't recall it taking place in the early 90s. I know that you're struggling to stick to whatever point you initially tried to make, something about quality and money made being the same thing... except when they're not, but if you want to talk about the quality of an angle you can at least try to talk about the angle itself. Not repeating what you've read people think about the angle or what Meltzer claimed, but what you actually thought of the angle based on what you saw. Otherwise it's just parroting Meltzer and again, I can go read Meltzer's thoughts myself if I want to see them, plus at least in his case he's actually commenting on something that he watched.

 

[sabremike]

The Nation of Domination didn't "bomb", which is what you implied. Your ramblings about drawing money don't make your implication any less wrong. Your moralizing about the horror of Jinder Mahal making fun of Nakamura is at least giving me a laugh though so that is appreciated, though I certain;y don't recall it taking place in the early 90s. I know that you're struggling to stick to whatever point you initially tried to make, something about quality and money made being the same thing... except when they're not, but if you want to talk about the quality of an angle you can at least try to talk about the angle itself. Not repeating what you've read people think about the angle or what Meltzer claimed, but what you actually thought of the angle based on what you saw. Otherwise it's just parroting Meltzer and again, I can go read Meltzer's thoughts myself if I want to see them, plus at least in his case he's actually commenting on something that he watched.

I am in my early 40's and can assure you I have seen all of the crappy angles I have discussed. And since you want to talk about Dave do you think it's a coincidence that it's the biggest liars, conmen and bullshit artists who are the ones who constantly take shots at him?

 

[JackSlater]

I am in my early 40's and can assure you I have seen all of the crappy angles I have discussed. And since you want to talk about Dave do you think it's a coincidence that it's the biggest liars, conmen and bullshit artists who are the ones who constantly take shots at him?

If you actually watched parts of the Gangstas angle in Smoky Mountain I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the promos, matches, creativity etc. and not whether or not it made money, as the former elements are relevant to the quality of the angle. Ignoring the hyperbole of your last sentence regarding "Dave", I'd take his side in pretty much any matter that comes to historical accuracy, which is what so many people try to take aim at him for. As a wrestling historian and reporter he's very strong. He's shown himself to be just like everybody else when it comes to his judgement of wrestling quality however.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

The Nation of Domination couldn't draw money if you dipped them in glue and rolled them in Fort Knox untill The Rock heel turn (which was after the whole racial aspects with the Gang Wars that was among the shittiest angles a major promotion has run in the past 30 years was dropped). In the 80's racial angles may have worked, by even the early 90's they caused revulsion (remember the crowd "That's too far" at that godawful Jinder Mahal angle making racist comments about Nakamura?)

I think these are some of the worst promos or leagues ever: Combat Zone Wrestling, XPW, Naked Women's Wrestling League, Extreme Midget Wrestling, Micro Wrestling Federation, Juggalo Championship Wrestling, National Wrestling Federation Kids Pro Wrestling, Doomsday Wrestling, and Incredibly Strange Wrestling.

 

[sabremike]

If you actually watched parts of the Gangstas angle in Smoky Mountain I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the promos, matches, creativity etc. and not whether or not it made money, as the former elements are relevant to the quality of the angle. Ignoring the hyperbole of your last sentence regarding "Dave", I'd take his side in pretty much any matter that comes to historical accuracy, which is what so many people try to take aim at him for. As a wrestling historian and reporter he's very strong. He's shown himself to be just like everybody else when it comes to his judgement of wrestling quality however.

The entire run of SMW TV is on YouTube. I've seen the promos and angles (like the takeoff of Rodney King) and it was just the worst cheap heat. Frankly the biggest thing I'm thinking watching this while remembering the awesome angle and feud they had in ECW with Public Enemy right after their SMW run was over was that if they had been used that way in SMW (Bad asses who were traditional bad ass brawling heels without the race baiting stuff) it would've done tons better. Paul was smart enough to see that the race gimmick would hold them back and that with the changing landscape of the time they were going to end up being gigantic babyfaces. Honestly Jack should've ended up one of the bigger stars in the entire industry of the era but his being insane meant WWE or WCW wouldn't touch him.

 

[67 others]

Did the Time Warner handcuffs cause Hogan to deliberately sabotage the Starcade 97 main event by telling Nick Patrick not to do the planned fast count and basically killing Sting dead and making Bret Hart look like an idiot?

Did the Time Warner handcuffs cause those three to come up with the idiotic beating of Goldberg at the following year's Starcade (after which both Bobby Heenan and Mike Tenay after the show ended both agreed that moment had effectively killed the company) which then led to one of the biggest disasters in wrestling history with the Fingerpoke of Doom that was the single moment you can point to as to where the company fell off a cliff never to recover?

I don't think you comprehend the scope.

Bischoff laid out several gameplans and attitude era scenarios that Time warner waited until the zero hour to Nix DURING THE SHOWS. Mild even by attitude era standards, but The time warner execs would wait to get back to them until during showtime to nix the ideas, or else. At which point they had like 20 minutes to come up with a new quick gameplan. And it happened every TV and PPV on a nightly basis. the politics of that corporate structure were a mess.

WCW had no Gorilla position like WWE where orders were sent over the mic. No homebase. nothing. They were certainly inept in that regard. WWE gorilla let them change things on the fly.

WCW wrestlers would find out their gameplan was nixed as they were walking through the curtain and have to improvise. it was chaotic. SHIT GUYS WE HAVE TO SCRAP THE ANGLE. "what do we do" um um, try this"

That was WCW under time warner.

Scott Steiner routinely ignored them and went full adlib because if he got suspended, they still paid him.

But yes, Hulk hogan is a self serving crappy employee. But he was still in the nexux of why WCW went from rassling show nobody took seriously to beating WWF in the ratings for 2 years. You can slag some of the crap he did, Any of us can. but nobody can deny he was the money draw that made them hit that peak in the first place. Thw NWO story arc beginnings and hogan turning heel were considered the biggest WTF OMG awesome moments in history of wrestling at that time. And he was instrumental in it. So were Hall and Nash.

 

[CDJ]

Jimmy Snuka = Carol Baskin

 

[Loosie]

I've been catching up on these episodes. Just finished watching the Benoit ones, man those were hard to watch. Especially re-watching Benoit's piece from the Eddie tribute show.

 

[End of Line]

Brawl for All was pretty good. I couldn't help but laugh when Russo was elated to see Bradshaw get KTFO'd

 

[Loosie]

Russo creating the tournament because Bradshaw was an ass is hilarious. Also it's funny to see that Russo is the only guy who continues to think it's a great idea.

 

[boredmale]

I think these are some of the worst promos or leagues ever: Combat Zone Wrestling, XPW, Naked Women's Wrestling League, Extreme Midget Wrestling, Micro Wrestling Federation, Juggalo Championship Wrestling, National Wrestling Federation Kids Pro Wrestling, Doomsday Wrestling, and Incredibly Strange Wrestling.

I remember seeing a video on this group, it was hilarious(basically a bunch of kids running a promotion on a public access network)

 

[CDJ]

I think these are some of the worst promos or leagues ever: Combat Zone Wrestling, XPW, Naked Women's Wrestling League, Extreme Midget Wrestling, Micro Wrestling Federation, Juggalo Championship Wrestling, National Wrestling Federation Kids Pro Wrestling, Doomsday Wrestling, and Incredibly Strange Wrestling.

It seems like so many wrestlers from CZW die young. Which makes sense.

I think justice pain just died a couple months ago for instance


They’ve had some legit talent come through but it’s garbage wrestling with garbage fans for the most part

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Russo is a complimentary piece. He can work if he's not the one calling the shots or in charge. In WWE he had Vince, plus Cornette, Prichard and Patterson shooting out ideas. He had people to shoot down the very terrible stuff. When he was on his own in WCW and TNA it was nothing but shit.

The problem with Russo is that it's just TV to him. Had he familiarized himself with some wrestling tropes or how wrestling works he may have done a better job after WWE. Russo and Vince share similarities in that they believe the crowd will like whatever they present, and if they don't, they're just old fashioned or don't get it.

I find it endlessly entertaining that Russo constantly dumps on Corny for living in the past, when Russo believes we are in a never ending 1998.

Bro, bro, bro, bro bro, Who cares bro, bro bro bro bro bro bro your a mark bro, bro bro bro bro bro it's fake bro, bro bro bro bro bro how about a bro on a pole match?- Vince Russo probably.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Russo creating the tournament because Bradshaw was an ass is hilarious. Also it's funny to see that Russo is the only guy who continues to think it's a great idea.

Because in Russo's mind he's William Shakespeare when in reality he's not even Tommy Wieseau.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

Last night's Snuka episode was another haunting one, and one that makes you cringe. Jericho doing a good job with the narration, as well.

 

[67 others]

Russo creating the tournament because Bradshaw was an ass is hilarious. Also it's funny to see that Russo is the only guy who continues to think it's a great idea.

A lot of people could not separate real from fake back then, but anyone trained in boxing or kickboxing could tell they were teeing off on each other for real. A group of my friends and I included.

When we realized they were fighting for real, we were in fact glued to the screen back then.

And a lot of people in the company apparently hated Bradshaw. The guy was the definition of bully. Up with the Steiner brothers in that category. but where the Steiners would bully just about everyone, including superstars and almost nobody would retaliate because they were legit the two toughest guys in the locker room after Haku, Bradshaw focused on younger talent and people who came from non wrestling backgrounds. In his messed up mind, it was the only way to teach outsiders to respect the business.

The steiners were just tough as hell and wanted everyone to know it. Scott Steiner was not afraid of anyone. Except Haku. That was a funny shoot interview when Scotty Steiner declared he could beat anyone in wrestling history in a shoot. Then the interviewer said "even Meng?"....Scotty got real quiet for the first time in the interview and conceded Haku was the one guy who would not mess with and Haku could in fact beat anyone he ever saw, including brock lesnar.

 

[sabremike]

It seems like so many wrestlers from CZW die young. Which makes sense.

I think justice pain just died a couple months ago for instance


They’ve had some legit talent come through but it’s garbage wrestling with garbage fans for the most part

He committed suicide by jumping off the Walt Whitman Bridge, which is the one that goes from NJ to South Philly where the ECW Arena is. On a GCW show that night his real life brother Nick Gage made an ominous comment over the mic about how he was hoping doing this show would take his mind off what his brother had done that afternoon. Of all the deaths of CZW guys the ones that hit me the hardest were Chris Cash and Trent Acid. Cash was just such a great guy and a hell of a talent willing to do anything to help the company. His ladder match vs Joker at COD V is still one of the greatest matches I have ever seen live (and keep in mind that I was at just about every one of the legendary ROH shows at the Murphy Rec Center, The National Guard Armory, The Rexplex, Manhattan Center ect.). Acid and Kashmere were the NY Bus Tag Team Champions (Paul London was the NY Bus Champion) and they would always come on the bus after the shows to do Q&A's. For you guys who go way back he (As No Good Kid Mikey) was the opponent of Billy Reil as backyard wrestlers who would do matches in the crowd at ECW shows.

 

[DaaaaB's]

I think these are some of the worst promos or leagues ever: Combat Zone Wrestling, XPW, Naked Women's Wrestling League, Extreme Midget Wrestling, Micro Wrestling Federation, Juggalo Championship Wrestling, National Wrestling Federation Kids Pro Wrestling, Doomsday Wrestling, and Incredibly Strange Wrestling.

I enjoyed any matches I've seen from Naked Women's Wrestling League but I'd call it porn not wrestling.

 

[67 others]

The Benoit episode was really well done, and seeing David and Sandra re-unite was something else. I knew most of Jericho's anecdotes from his books and past comments, but some of Vicki Guerrero's were stunning. The part about Benoit going to her house to hold Eddie's pillow and cry in their bed...jesus.

I finally got around to watching part 2.

Its just terrible. Benoit was an amazing performer and by all accounts, a terrific brother. Great person.

Most people say while we will never know what happened, they think a combination of brain damage, chemical imbalance and personal losses over the past few years make this murder suicide by reason of insanity. The person who did these things was NOT who Chris Benoit was.

 

[Loosie]

I finally got around to watching part 2.

Its just terrible. Benoit was an amazing performer and by all accounts, a terrific brother. Great person.

Most people say while we will never know what happened, they think a combination of brain damage, chemical imbalance and personal losses over the past few years make this murder suicide by reason of insanity. The person who did these things was NOT who Chris Benoit was.

Pretty much. I think Eddie's death had a large impact on him, and it shows in this piece.

 

[SladeWilson23]

Is 3rd degree murder just another way to say voluntary manslaughter?

 

[Loosie]

Is 3rd degree murder just another way to say voluntary manslaughter?

According to Wikipedia only 3 states have 3rd-degree murder, Pennsylvania being one of them. Involuntary Manslaughter, is basically, you didn't mean to kill the person but did. 3rd-Degree Murder is muder that is not 1st or 2nd-degree murder, but require malice.

I'm not sure how someone can be charged with both, but is basically sounds like he didn't intend to kill but the actions he took were enough that death was a likely outcome. (I am so NOT a lawyer, but I think that's how I interpret it)

Third-degree murder - Wikipedia
Manslaughter - Wikipedia

 

[SladeWilson23]

According to Wikipedia only 3 states have 3rd-degree murder, Pennsylvania being one of them. Involuntary Manslaughter, is basically, you didn't mean to kill the person but did. 3rd-Degree Murder is muder that is not 1st or 2nd-degree murder, but require malice.

I'm not sure how someone can be charged with both, but is basically sounds like he didn't intend to kill but the actions he took were enough that death was a likely outcome. (I am so NOT a lawyer, but I think that's how I interpret it)

Third-degree murder - Wikipedia
Manslaughter - Wikipedia

My interpretation was that 2nd degree murder was where you have malicious intents, but do not intend to end a person's life.

• You get fired from your job, and decide to give your boss some payback. You wait for him outside his house, go up to him, and punch him in the face. Problem is you hit him too hard, and he ends up dying.

Voluntary manslaughter is where somebody just loses it and just snaps.

• You come home from a nice day at work, and then spot your wife in bed with another guy. You go ballistic and shoot the other guy.

My guess in Snuka's case, his crime was that of voluntary manslaughter. He got into a fight with Nancy, and was overaggressive with her on the side of the road and she ends up dying in the hospital.

 

[alko]

And a lot of people in the company apparently hated Bradshaw. The guy was the definition of bully. Up with the Steiner brothers in that category. but where the Steiners would bully just about everyone, including superstars and almost nobody would retaliate because they were legit the two toughest guys in the locker room after Haku, Bradshaw focused on younger talent and people who came from non wrestling backgrounds. In his messed up mind, it was the only way to teach outsiders to respect the business.

The steiners were just tough as hell and wanted everyone to know it. Scott Steiner was not afraid of anyone. Except Haku. That was a funny shoot interview when Scotty Steiner declared he could beat anyone in wrestling history in a shoot. Then the interviewer said "even Meng?"....Scotty got real quiet for the first time in the interview and conceded Haku was the one guy who would not mess with and Haku could in fact beat anyone he ever saw, including brock lesnar.

Even the big guys? Undertaker, Hogan, Luger, Michaels ...