Dark Horse Candidates To Make The Team

[Striiker]

Im over here like, "It was Hakstols fault."

At the very least that's more likely than Giroux being injured, having surgery, rehabbing, starting the season at nearly PPG pace with no obvious injury issues for three months, and then suddenly when the rest of the team stopped scoring he magically became overwhelmingly injured again.

But oh well. I guess he'll just say this is a strawman again (since he apparently doesn't know what that is but is required to say it in every post) and ignore common sense.

 

[YEM]

I kid you not the 1st time i interacted with him he was mocking people who thought Giroux's 2017 season struggles had to do with him not being the same physically. Then Giroux came out in interviews saying that his struggles were in fact a result of his body not doing what it used to be able do but Striiker refused to admit he was wrong and clung to any little strawman to claim he wasnt.

That's a pretty great indicator how close minded the guy is. Literally gets proven wrong by the player himself and refused to concede his point ...

never-been-wrong syndrome
some posters have it, bad

 

[Striiker]

I've been wrong plenty of times and also readily admit when I'm ignorant on a subject (most prospects, players on teams I don't watch often, hypothetical trade values, contract intricacies, most advanced stats, and plenty other things).

So it's not an issue of never being wrong, it's just that some things are common sense. Unfortunately common sense isn't as common as it should be.

 

[hatcher]

As the season goes on the games get tighter and we started to fail. Start of the year to most NHL players is like a training camp for 25 plus games before the systems really get played to a tee.

 

[deadhead]

At the very least that's more likely than Giroux being injured, having surgery, rehabbing, starting the season at nearly PPG pace with no obvious injury issues for three months, and then suddenly when the rest of the team stopped scoring he magically became overwhelmingly injured again.

But oh well. I guess he'll just say this is a strawman again (since he apparently doesn't know what that is but is required to say it in every post) and ignore common sense.

Or maybe his injury made it hard to strengthen his core, and as the season progressed, he wore down and was a step slow (which was obvious watching him). Both Giroux and Ghost looked much better the last couple months than they did most of the season.

The two best offensive players on the team shouldn't be dragged down by the rest of the team, they should be elevating the play of their teammates.

 

[hatcher]

Or maybe his injury made it hard to strengthen his core, and as the season progressed, he wore down and was a step slow (which was obvious watching him). Both Giroux and Ghost looked much better the last couple months than they did most of the season.

The two best offensive players on the team shouldn't be dragged down by the rest of the team, they should be elevating the play of their teammates.

Bingo. G takes a perfect pass threw the middle of the ice and hits center and dumps it in with weak forecheckers period on the team but its the d's fault he wouldn't carry it and make plays that make teammates better.

 

[Striiker]

Or maybe his injury made it hard to strengthen his core, and as the season progressed, he wore down and was a step slow (which was obvious watching him). Both Giroux and Ghost looked much better the last couple months than they did most of the season.

The two best offensive players on the team shouldn't be dragged down by the rest of the team, they should be elevating the play of their teammates.

I've already said it could have partly been a conditioning issue due to lost offseason training time.

What was argued was that it wasn't a direct result of being too injured to perform or the decline of an aging player, like a certain poster had claimed it was. This is obvious when you realize that for the first +/-35 games of the season he played like he had pre-injury.

 

[deadhead]

Who'll make the team won't be just talent, but long-term development.
Putting a scoring forward on the 4th line because he can't crack the top 9 this year doesn't make sense, better to spend another year in the AHL in an offensive role. So while Leier and Laughton are 4th line canidates, Martel will face the same roadblock that kept Weal in the NHL, top 9 or bust.

In a similar fashion, if Ghost is QB of the PP, and Sanheim will be limited to a 3rd pair role with no PP duties, he might be better off in the AHL - Hextall might decide that Sanheim has to show in camp that he's ready for top 4/2nd PP duties to stick, while Hagg and Morin merely have to show they're ready for 3rd pair duties and PK.

However, if players show they're ready, Hextall will go with 3 rookie defensemen without hesitation - he kept Konency over Leier and AK and Laughton last year. Konency showed he was ready for top 9 duties, though they did limit his minutes and his responsibilities.

The difference this year is there's enough depth that Hextall doesn't have to force the issue just to fill out the roster, but he's not "conservative" in the sense of reluctance to play rookies, he's "conservative" in the sense of erring on the side of caution when it comes to rushing players to the NHL.

 

[Striiker]

Who'll make the team won't be just talent, but long-term development.
Putting a scoring forward on the 4th line because he can't crack the top 9 this year doesn't make sense, better to spend another year in the AHL in an offensive role. So while Leier and Laughton are 4th line canidates, Martel will face the same roadblock that kept Weal in the NHL, top 9 or bust.

In a similar fashion, if Ghost is QB of the PP, and Sanheim will be limited to a 3rd pair role with no PP duties, he might be better off in the AHL - Hextall might decide that Sanheim has to show in camp that he's ready for top 4/2nd PP duties to stick, while Hagg and Morin merely have to show they're ready for 3rd pair duties and PK.

However, if players show they're ready, Hextall will go with 3 rookie defensemen without hesitation - he kept Konency over Leier and AK and Laughton last year. Konency showed he was ready for top 9 duties, though they did limit his minutes and his responsibilities.

The difference this year is there's enough depth that Hextall doesn't have to force the issue just to fill out the roster, but he's not "conservative" in the sense of reluctance to play rookies, he's "conservative" in the sense of erring on the side of caution when it comes to rushing players to the NHL.

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He can play on the 2nd PP unit and being on the third pair is fine as long as he isn't playing 10 minutes per night, which he won't be.

Last years average time on ice per game for defensemen who played 40+ games....

Provorov - 21:58
MacDonald - 20:06
Ghost - 19:35
Del Zotto - 19:30
Streit - 19:23
Gudas - 19:17
Manning - 18:03

so obviously there's plenty of time to go around.

 

[Curufinwe]

Also, Streit and MDZ combined for 173 PP minutes last year and they are gone.

While PP2 may have 1 D + 4F on it at times, it will definitely have 2 D + 3 F for significant stretches. Sanheim is easily the best option in the organization to be that second dman on PP2.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Not really considering he's only 22 and just happened to start in the pros at age 18 which very few do. A defense prospect taking until age 22 to become an NHL regular is not a knock on his ability or talent. He was just a rare case that started at such a young age.

And why did he play pro hockey at 18? Because he was thought to be an advanced prospect. Age alone is not a knock on a player's ability, but experience is just as important to consider. Not every 22 year old defensemen is on the same development curve. Colton Parayko didn't become an NHL regular until he was 22. But if you take a peak at his resume you see he played 2 seasons in the AJHL, and 3 seasons in the WCHA before getting into a handful of AHL games following his junior season. He was clearly a late bloomer. I don't think we can say the same with Hagg. It's all about trajectory at that age. The fact that Hagg just had a good (not great) season as a 5th year pro isn't all that impressive. If pro experience alone was a determining factor in future success, Hagg should have been a dominant player in the AHL.

I would just like to see a good argument for Hagg to play in the NHL before Sanheim this year that doesn't reference his pro experience. Examples of what he actually brings on the ice would be much appreciated.

 

[deadhead]

It's not whether the time is there, Provorov is almost certain to be one player on the PP2 unit, but the other D/F spot is open, but whether Hextall thinks Sanheim is ready for that role. In the same fashion, if Hagg and Morin can't play on the PK, they are less likely to make the team.

Hextall is building a roster, he's not going to carry a young defenseman as his 7th D-man, either they play a regular shift, including special teams duties, or they go back to the AHL. Same at forward, to make the team as a 4th line forward, you'll have to be able to play on the PK, otherwise you're minutes will be too limited to be worth carrying you on the team.

 

[deadhead]

I would just like to see a good argument for Hagg to play in the NHL before Sanheim this year that doesn't reference his pro experience. Examples of what he actually brings on the ice would be much appreciated.

It'll come down to roles.

Hextall is not going to use Sanheim as a 3rd pair, PK guy playing 15-16 protected minutes and no PP duties. He will use Hagg in that role.

 

[Striiker]

And why did he play pro hockey at 18? Because he was thought to be an advanced prospect. Age alone is not a knock on a player's ability, but experience is just as important to consider. Not every 22 year old defensemen is on the same development curve. Colton Parayko didn't become an NHL regular until he was 22. But if you take a peak at his resume you see he played 2 seasons in the AJHL, and 3 seasons in the WCHA before getting into a handful of AHL games following his junior season. He was clearly a late bloomer. I don't think we can say the same with Hagg. It's all about trajectory at that age. The fact that Hagg just had a good (not great) season as a 5th year pro isn't all that impressive. If pro experience alone was a determining factor in future success, Hagg should have been a dominant player in the AHL.

I would just like to see a good argument for Hagg to play in the NHL before Sanheim this year that doesn't reference his pro experience. Examples of what he actually brings on the ice would be much appreciated.

Which is exactly what I'm STILL waiting for them to give, but apparently I'm just being difficult.

The truth is they don't have a reason, only empty cliches about being a "safer" player and mentions of experience, but they can't admit they're wrong.

It'll come down to roles.

Hextall is not going to use Sanheim as a 3rd pair, PK guy playing 15-16 protected minutes and no PP duties. He will use Hagg in that role.

Like I just said above... Sanheim being on the third pair is no problem at all because he'll still get plenty of time and there's no reason why he wouldn't get 2nd PP time....

I have no idea why you're acting like there's a concrete role that must be filled and Sanheim and Hagg are fighting over it.

 

[deadhead]

Manning, Morin and Hagg are fighting over a bottom pair role.
Sanheim is going to be like Ghost, he's going to make the team only if Hextall thinks he's ready for 2nd pair duties.

That is, he's either going to be given the responsibility to drive the offense when he's on the ice, or he'll go back to the AHL to improve his decision making. He's not going to be used in a conservative, defensive role as the CYA partner of an offensive defenseman.

 

[Striiker]

Manning, Morin and Hagg are fighting over a bottom pair role.
Sanheim is going to be like Ghost, he's going to make the team only if Hextall thinks he's ready for 2nd pair duties.

That is, he's either going to be given the responsibility to drive the offense when he's on the ice, or he'll go back to the AHL to improve his decision making. He's not going to be used in a conservative, defensive role as the CYA partner of an offensive defenseman.

Ghost was on the third pair last year... didn't see any problem there. You can play 3rd pair 5v5 minutes as an offensive defensemen and then make up for that with PP time. Ghost does it, Sanheim can do it.

Even strength TOI/GP

Provorov - 17:26
Gudas - 17:19
Del Zotto - 17:16
MacDonald - 17:08
Manning - 16:15
Streit - 16:14
Ghost - 15:41

And then compare that to total time per game, like I already posted above.

Provorov - 21:58
MacDonald - 20:06
Ghost - 19:35
Del Zotto - 19:30
Streit - 19:23
Gudas - 19:17
Manning - 18:03

Obviously Sanheim won't get as much PP time as Ghost, but playing him roughly 17 minutes per night would be perfectly fine for a rookie defensemen.

 

[Curufinwe]

Manning, Morin and Hagg are fighting over a bottom pair role.
Sanheim is going to be like Ghost, he's going to make the team only if Hextall thinks he's ready for 2nd pair duties.

Ghost didn't get 2nd pair duties as a rookie or as a 2nd year player.

 

[BritainStix]

Giroux was clearly affected both physically and mentally. Once you have surgery like that, it can feel right starting the season off, but little niggles suddenly play on your mind more than it should. You start compensating in your movements so that you no longer feel those pains, as such it affects your game. The largest hurdle in any injury to overcome is not the physical ability, but the mental aspect of playing without looking for the pain, especially in mobility issues that Giroux and Ghost suffered.

It is likely that at the end of the season, any aches and pains had subsided and they were essentially playing at "full health". Which means that they slowly start breaking the bad habits that they had drawn themselves into to compensate for the mobility issues. It was fairly evident in the following

Giroux starts the season off taking his regular one timer slap shot from the half boards on the PP. Success.

Giroux slowly withdraws from using the shot more and more as the season progresses, likely due to the hip not aligning correctly as he rotated through the shot, which in turn causes pain. This pain can't be overcome by rest, it's just the body breaking through scar tissue and muscle fatigue.

End of the season, the scar tissue is minimal, pain no longer exists, Giroux steps into his shots more from the half boards and finds success again. Exactly the same happened to Ghost, he couldn't hit the net all season with his most effective shot last year.