Dark Horse Candidates To Make The Team

[lancer247]

Goulbourne!

 

[Rebels57]

Goulbourne!

Dark horse to make the Phantoms?

 

[Striiker]

"Elite" should be reserved for guys like Karlsson, Hedman, and Burns.

We don't have any elite offensive defensemen and don't have anyone who projects to be either.

Ghost is great, Sanheim has tons of potential, Provorov too, but none of them will be 70+ point defensemen. Very good, hopefully, but not elite.

 

[CodyTheHuman]

Words like "elite" and "generational" mean nothing anymore. So overused.

Weal is an elite leftwing. There, I said it.

 

[BackWithaVengeance]

Weal is an elite leftwing. There, I said it.

and VandeVelde is an elite 2-two-way-player who last season was unlucky to score more goals. Anything else he did was suberb. Unfortunately our cap space is not enoguh to make him the highest paid player in the NHL.

No one wants to take on the slouches Giroux and Voracek.

Damn NT/NM-clauses.


Signed, Dave Hakstol

 

[Striiker]

Weal is an elite leftwing. There, I said it.

 

[daa5250]

I can't believe I'm honestly seeing people talk like Hagg should be on the team next year and Sanheim in the AHL.

I get not everyone can watch AHL games, but anyone who does will tell you this is as black and white as could be. The goal is to win NHL games... not make sure every prospect plays in the NHL. The best play, the rest don't. End of story.

This is the equivalent of saying Leier should have priority over Lindblom because Leier has played many years in the AHL and we need to see what he is...

With prospects the goal is to have them develop to the best of their ability ... for Sanheim they might think being a 1st pair guy playing 20+ minutes in he AHL is the better move at the moment.

 

[daa5250]

Thats a strawman and you know it.

Hagg is good enough to be an NHL player. That is why he should be in the NHL. It's as simple as that. For your records, I did watch quite a few AHL games last year, even though it's 1 oclock in the morning here. What I saw was a player that clearly has a great deal more to offer than Manning and Farmer on the NHL team. Hagg deserves a shot at the NHL because he's good enough to be there. Not because he's some prospect that you have to give a chance too.

The goal of the flyers isn't to win NHL games, it's to win the stanley cup. Trading a few wins here and there in the short term for a better development path seems rather silly. Sanheim is the better player, but lets not pretend that he didn't have a major development year just now. His work on the defensive side of the puck this year was fantastic.

I'm not arguing that Sanheim shouldn't be in the NHL next year either, He should. He is a far better option than half of the defensive corps already. But lets face facts here, the Flyers are a very old school team with old school ideals. They are very unlikely to enter the NHL season with three rookies on the defensive roster. It's just the way it is. Morin is clearly ready for his NHL call-up. Hagg is also ready. Keeping either in the AHL at this point would be stunting their growth. They have nothing left to learn from the quality at the AHL level. Hagg has played three full seasons now at that level. It is most definitely sink or swim time for him at the NHL level.

Sanheim however had a tremendous year on the defensive side of the puck while getting practically no special teams time. It would not be unrealistic for him to develop his offensive skills further while playing on the first unit of both teams in the AHL, while logging top minutes against the best lines. It's not going to stunt his growth. He didn't get top minutes last year, even though his partnership with Morin was clearly the Phantoms best defensive duo. He got rather limited PP time regardless of the fact that he was probably the best offensive defenseman last year.

The truth is, Keeping Hagg off the roster is a bad idea. Realistically you know that true. He isn't some potential 1# pairing defenseman. He needs to start learning the ropes at the NHL speed if he is to reach the potential of a top 4 D. If Sanheim starts the season in the A and blows the doors off it much like Ghost did, You know that Hextall is going to have to make a move. But until he shows that he can do that, there is the very real possibility that he spends the year there. Remember, this kid was mainly drafted on his offensive pedigree. We already have two elite offensive D on the roster. Sanheim isn't getting 1st line PP time, and he might struggle for 2# too if we continue with the umbrella set up.

Extreme strawman comparisons are his thing. His go to move is to find strawman ways to claim you are saying Conor McDavid is bad as a result.

 

[Striiker]

With prospects the goal is to have them develop to the best of their ability ... for Sanheim they might think being a 1st pair guy playing 20+ minutes in he AHL is the better move at the moment.

Or they might think he's ready to play meaningful minutes in the NHL and continue developing there, which is the more likely of the two.

Extreme strawman comparisons are his thing. His go to move is to find strawman ways to claim you are saying Conor McDavid is bad as a result.

These "strawmen" are an effort to help connect the dots, not me trying to change what's being argued. If common sense were used then I wouldn't need to give these other examples of the same logic. I don't need to change the argument to "win" it, I just have to rephrase it in a way that helps you understand why you're wrong.

Sanheim vs Hagg, Lindblom vs Leier was an example of that. You judge players on ability, not how many years they've spent in certain leagues. Not a strawman at all, just using the same flawed logic with different players.

 

[BritainStix]

Extreme strawman comparisons are his thing. His go to move is to find strawman ways to claim you are saying Conor McDavid is bad as a result.

To be honest, I gave up replying when his last reply was so horribly patronising I knew that anything I posted back would incur an infraction.

Pretty much the entire argument was ignored because he stated "playing time does not beat out ability" or something to that effect. If that was the case, Morin and Sanheim would of been on the roster last year, because they clearly have more ability than Farmer, Manning, Streit and Schultz.

 

[Striiker]

That wasn't being patronizing, that was trying to be as clear as possible because you were struggling to understand

And you can see why that was needed by that second paragraph you just posted there, which shows you weren't getting it. .

 

[Curufinwe]

Just please don't call Provorv an "elite" offensive dman on the main boards. I'd prefer for us not to get the reputation for exaggeration that the Toronto fans have.

 

[BritainStix]

That wasn't being patronizing, that was trying to be as clear as possible because you were struggling to understand

And you can see why that was needed by that second paragraph you just posted there, which shows you weren't getting it. .

The only thing that is incredible is the hypocrisy of calling into question someone's understanding when you can't see how patronising your own comments are. Incredible. The fact that you have written "Sanheim has nothing to learn in the AHL" is also asinine.

Each to their own.

 

[Striiker]

The only thing that is incredible is the hypocrisy of calling into question someone's understanding when you can't see how patronising your own comments are. Incredible. The fact that you have written "Sanheim has nothing to learn in the AHL" is also asinine.

Each to their own.

Nothing that he can't learn in the NHL, yes. He isn't a player with a glaring weakness that needs to be addressed before coming to the NHL, like he was this time last year. At this point, he's ready to play in the NHL and he can keep improving there. It won't hurt his development and it helps the Flyers win games.

Meanwhile, neither of you two could give a legitimate reason for Hagg being more likely to make the team, other than time spent in the AHL. You gave a lot of nonsense reasons, but no real ones. You didn't watch enough AHL hockey last year to be arguing this, so why did you try for so long?

Plus, you said "Hagg has nothing more to gain in the AHL", so I have no idea why you think saying Sanheim doesn't is an outlandish claim ... Sanheim is obviously more ready than Hagg. You'd know that if you consistently watched them, which you even admitted you don't.

 

[daa5250]

Or they might think he's ready to play meaningful minutes in the NHL and continue developing there, which is the more likely of the two.



These "strawmen" are an effort to help connect the dots, not me trying to change what's being argued. If common sense were used then I wouldn't need to give these other examples of the same logic. I don't need to change the argument to "win" it, I just have to rephrase it in a way that helps you understand why you're wrong.

Sanheim vs Hagg, Lindblom vs Leier was an example of that. You judge players on ability, not how many years they've spent in certain leagues. Not a strawman at all, just using the same flawed logic with different players.

No you usually take 1 point that is mentioned among many and equate that to a comparison that doesnt make sense and ignores all the other context and points that were stated.

Nobody has said Hagg should automatically get the spot over him ONLY because he has had more pro experience. But in regards to prospects getting their NHL shot, having 5 pro seasons to 1 is obviously something of note. You then bring up Brennan as a comparison even tho hes 28 and not a prospect like Hagg. Terrible comparison given we are talking about 21-22 yr prospects getting their NHL shot and not 28 yr NHL rejects who already had their shot and sucked in the NHL.

You then say how you look at his actual play the last few years and not just his single NHL game like myself. Once again that was 1 of many points i stated on why he should make the team but I obviously value his years of play over a single game. Hagg was legit good this past year.

Hagg's biggest reason for making the team is he was simply good this past year. Him already having 3 yrs in the AHL and doing well in his NHL debut just gives more credence to the case that he merely deserves his shot in the NHL which is very different from a 28 yr old who already showed he cant play in the NHL like Brennan.

Here's a good breakdown on Hagg's play in the AHL; https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2...prospects-analysis-lehigh-valley-phantoms-ahl

He was flat out good this year. 7th among U23 AHL dmen in primary points per time on ice, 53% goal goals for ratio and +3% relative to his teammates in it.

He was good last year and already has 3 AHL seasons under his belt. That guy should get his chance in the NHL.

 

[Rebels57]

I do think Hagg will be in the NHL in 2017-2018.

Im just not sure of how that effects Sanheim, if at all.

 

[briererocks]

I do think Hagg will be in the NHL in 2017-2018.

Im just not sure of how that effects Sanheim, if at all.

I am gonna get killed for this but I like Hagg alot more than Morin. Never liked Morin game. Morin could have been a star in a different era but I don't see d like him being impact players in this era. Hopefully Morin plays well and makes me eat my words. Hagg on the other hand is a perfect complement for provorov or ghost. Want the season to start and see how things play out.

 

[Stizzle]

I am gonna get killed for this but I like Hagg alot more than Morin. Never liked Morin game. Morin could have been a star in a different era but I don't see d like him being impact players in this era. Hopefully Morin plays well and makes me eat my words. Hagg on the other hand is a perfect complement for provorov or ghost. Want the season to start and see how things play out.

I have Hagg over Morin in the prospect ranking thread. The only one to do so.

I've only seen 2 games of Hogberg, but if what I saw was his norm, I'd very easily rank Hogberg over both.

I don't think the coaches did Morin justice this year by pairing him so often with Sanheim. Morin deferred to Sanheim constantly. Morin wasn't challenged to work on his breakouts, puck skills, and other deficiencies until he was paired late in the season with Alt.

 

[Striiker]

No you usually take 1 point that is mentioned among many and equate that to a comparison that doesnt make sense and ignores all the other context and points that were stated.

Nope. I take something that someone says and point out how stupid it is. Like, for example, caring about how many years in pro leagues a player has played when comparing prospects and their readiness. It's not a strawman to point out that this logic makes no sense by using the same logic on other players (Lindblom/Leier). It's just exposing the lack of common sense, which is why you get upset about it.

Nobody has said Hagg should automatically get the spot over him ONLY because he has had more pro experience. But in regards to prospects getting their NHL shot, having 5 pro seasons to 1 is obviously something of note. You then bring up Brennan as a comparison even tho hes 28 and not a prospect like Hagg. Terrible comparison given we are talking about 21-22 yr prospects getting their NHL shot and not 28 yr NHL rejects who already had their shot and sucked in the NHL.

The point is that it shouldn't be considered at all. You should ONLY look at ability, not at number of pro seasons. That's not something "of note", it's a completely irrelevant number when comparing prospects. Just like you wouldn't use any AHL players number of pro seasons as a reason why they should make the team over Patrick. It just doesn't make any sense.

You then say how you look at his actual play the last few years and not just his single NHL game like myself. Once again that was 1 of many points i stated on why he should make the team but I obviously value his years of play over a single game. Hagg was legit good this past year.

Hagg's biggest reason for making the team is he was simply good this past year. Him already having 3 yrs in the AHL and doing well in his NHL debut just gives more credence to the case that he merely deserves his shot in the NHL which is very different from a 28 yr old who already showed he cant play in the NHL like Brennan.

Here's a good breakdown on Hagg's play in the AHL; https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2...prospects-analysis-lehigh-valley-phantoms-ahl

He was flat out good this year. 7th among U23 AHL dmen in primary points per time on ice, 53% goal goals for ratio and +3% relative to his teammates in it.

He was good last year and already has 3 AHL seasons under his belt. That guy should get his chance in the NHL.

I never said he was bad this year or that he shouldn't make the team, in fact I specifically said that he should make the team. The only thing I was arguing was that Sanheim was better and should be given priority if there's limited spots available. I already clarified all of this previously, as you can see below...

Could Hagg play in the NHL? Sure, I already said that he could and I'd like to see him on the team next year. But that's by taking a spot from MacDonald/Manning, not someone who's better than him.

The only thing I've been arguing was that anyone saying Hagg is more ready than Sanheim is incorrect. Spending more time in the AHL doesn't automatically make you more ready, being a good player and adding something to the team does. Sanheim is better offensively, defensively, and in transition. There's no competition there, there's a clear cut winner. I also don't see a point in Sanheim returning to the AHL. I'm not saying to rush him to the NHL, I'm saying he's ready, like Ghost was.

 

[FLYguy3911]

5 pro seasons to 1 definitely is something of note. That much experience and he has yet to play a meaningful game in the NHL says a little something.

 

[Striiker]

Yes, I should be clear, it's not something of note in favor of a player.

 

[healthyscratch]

I hope every last one of you are wrong about Laughton and his percentages.

 

[Rebels57]

I am gonna get killed for this but I like Hagg alot more than Morin. Never liked Morin game. Morin could have been a star in a different era but I don't see d like him being impact players in this era. Hopefully Morin plays well and makes me eat my words. Hagg on the other hand is a perfect complement for provorov or ghost. Want the season to start and see how things play out.

Morin is basically a much bigger, much stronger, much meaner version of Hagg. They both have their weaknesses but I will take Morin any day. Hagg type defensemen arent hard to find. Mobile behemoths are like unicorns.

 

[Striiker]

I hope every last one of you are wrong about Laughton and his percentages.

They didn't protect him in the expansion draft to have him in the AHL.

He's getting his last chance to stick with the NHL team, otherwise he'll be quickly pushed aside by all the other guys on the way.

 

[healthyscratch]

They didn't protect him in the expansion draft to have him in the AHL.

He's getting his last chance to stick with the NHL team, otherwise he'll be quickly pushed aside by all the other guys on the way.

Here's hoping Vecchione pushes him right into the moon door.