Prospect Info: Daniel Sprong Progress

[WheresRamziAbid]

Meh, not very noteworthy and nor will it be...and for lack of a better sentence, nor should it be. People sometimes misconstrue what it means when they say they want a player to develop a two-way game...this isn't about him becoming Marian Hossa. It's about puck management, it's about understanding different reads and play types when "weird" stuff happens on the rink (like how frequently WBS d-men becomes F1 on the forecheck), finishing plays defensively...so much of defense is about risk mitigation and then understanding the time to close the deal. This isn't about him sliding around the ice blocking shots with his mouth open like Ryan Callahan...that is not defense.

I think his game has matured certainly, I think he has better attention to detail and I think he is a better playmaker now than he was 6 or 12 months ago. I like his progress. I think if he was a LW he might have already found his way into the lineup...but he is a little bit of a tough fit right now and I respect that...but this is a good player and one that I had ranked very high on my personal draft board (13 or 16 or some such) and I think he is tracking the right way...

IIRC i also believe one of the sticking points when he was first called up was he need to be better reading the play in the offensive zone as well.

As far as improving i dont really watch WBS but i do remember having the conversation a bit back about how Sprong was really the only minus regular for WBS (he was around -7 at the time, i think). Im not sure what changed and i know plus/minus is flawed but in those last few weeks he went from -7 to +4

 

[ziggyjoe212]

The fact that Simon and ZAR have been up here for months and Sprong only had a cup of coffee says alot.
I hope I'm wrong but it seems like Sprong is going the route of Pouliot.

Doesn't help that we traded a 1st and Gustafsson for a currently 4th liner Brassard. We have literally no good prospects except Sprong. Yikes.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, I commented in that general direction in my half-asleep state earlier...Sprong sees the ice much better, it's a good point by you Abid, he's a much better playmaker than he was...he had a lot of Mattias Tedenby in him early on...now, it's more well-rounded...dare I say, kind of like Phil Kessel (ya know, the one who was our best player through the first 60 games of the year...not the imposter that plays currently).

Simon and ZAR are LHS LW, Sprong is a RHS. They are not direct comparables. Simon, in particular, had pro experience.

Internally, the play with Sprong is simple...this guy needs to be an impact player. Whether it's an amazing find like Phil Kessel or it's a good find like Reilly Smith, it needs to be on that spectrum some place. That doesn't happen getting 4th line NHL minutes. That's not how you maximize potential. I've had a few nice chats with the Penguins skill development coach recently, and he really gets it, and I really like what he's doing with some of our young players. I wish we had some young d-men that are worth anything for him to work with, but that's another story entirely...anyway, 3rd and 4th line NHL is not 1st line AHL. That's not how it works, they're not on the same playing field. So just because one is the 297th best forward in the NHL and the other is in the AHL, that doesn't mean that the guy in the AHL is worse.

The focus is much different in the show...Couturier, Niederreiter, these are guys that really got stuck in the mud early in their career...it probably robbed them of some offensive upside. You look at Conor Sheary, I'm not going to look it up, but I assume he played 10 minutes last night. You want Sprong doing that for 40 games in the regular season? Why? Who does that help? It's crazy to think that that will make people think that the draft pick is succeeding...

This is a long play to maximize the potential while we have time to maximize it. If he needed to be in the lineup, he would be. Instead, lower upside players are in the lineup...they're more versatile, they can move around, they don't require rhythm to play...Sprong needs some rhythm to be effective...he needs a little wind-up...you can't get that at 9 minutes...where a couple of special teams events happen and you go 8, 9 minutes without a shift - that's 16 to 18 real minutes...that's not going to work.

The Penguins are doing it exactly right. The prize is gonna be waiting for us at the finish line, as he's really coming along nicely. He just turned 21 last month, it's not like we're talking about 23, 24...

We have no good defensive prospects now that Lauzon had his neck meat re-arranged...but the rest of that "yikes" statement ought to be tempered...

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The fact that Simon and ZAR have been up here for months and Sprong only had a cup of coffee says alot.
I hope I'm wrong but it seems like Sprong is going the route of Pouliot.

Doesn't help that we traded a 1st and Gustafsson for a currently 4th liner Brassard. We have literally no good prospects except Sprong. Yikes.

Simon and ZAR are three years older than Sprong and play LW... weird ass comparison. The plan all along was to keep him down all season and they mostly stuck to their guns on that.

Sprong was fifth in scoring in the A and lead all rookies in goals. In fact, he was only one goal off from leading the entire league.

The panic thresholds on prospects around here is bizarre.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Simon and ZAR are three years older than Sprong and play LW... weird ass comparison. The plan all along was to keep him down all season and they mostly stuck to their guns on that.

Sprong was fifth in scoring in the A and lead all rookies in goals. In fact, he was only one goal off from leading the entire league.

The panic thresholds on prospects around here is bizarre.

Sully has said how much he likes him.

Wasn't Sprong working on being more well rounded, the aspects of the game beyond scoring?

 

[Return of the Paek]

It will never happen, but they need to bench Kessel. I love him, but he is a complete disaster right now and is single-handedly (pun alert) killing the PP. Could you imagine sprong on at the left side wiring Ovi-like bombs?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Sully has said how much he likes him.

Wasn't Sprong working on being more well rounded, the aspects of the game beyond scoring?

Sullivan wanted his game a certain way. It’s frustrating for many of us because we see guys like Sheary not living up to that standard, but Sullivan has final say and he believes what he believes.

That doesn’t mean Sprong is getting traded and all this other nonsense we keep seeing ppl throw out there.

Worrying about a guy who just accomplished what he did in the A as being a bust is so bizarre, like I said.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Regular season is over. Surely, 4th line play is better than watching on TV sitting on a beanbag chair eating cheetos

 

[Ogrezilla]

Regular season is over. Surely, 4th line play is better than watching on TV sitting on a beanbag chair eating cheetos

I think it's pretty clear that Sprong was sent down this year because Sully thought ZAR and Simon helped the NHL team more than Sprong, not because they wanted Sprong playing more.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yeah, I commented in that general direction in my half-asleep state earlier...Sprong sees the ice much better, it's a good point by you Abid, he's a much better playmaker than he was...he had a lot of Mattias Tedenby in him early on...now, it's more well-rounded...dare I say, kind of like Phil Kessel (ya know, the one who was our best player through the first 60 games of the year...not the imposter that plays currently).

Simon and ZAR are LHS LW, Sprong is a RHS. They are not direct comparables. Simon, in particular, had pro experience.

Internally, the play with Sprong is simple...this guy needs to be an impact player. Whether it's an amazing find like Phil Kessel or it's a good find like Reilly Smith, it needs to be on that spectrum some place. That doesn't happen getting 4th line NHL minutes. That's not how you maximize potential. I've had a few nice chats with the Penguins skill development coach recently, and he really gets it, and I really like what he's doing with some of our young players. I wish we had some young d-men that are worth anything for him to work with, but that's another story entirely...anyway, 3rd and 4th line NHL is not 1st line AHL. That's not how it works, they're not on the same playing field. So just because one is the 297th best forward in the NHL and the other is in the AHL, that doesn't mean that the guy in the AHL is worse.

The focus is much different in the show...Couturier, Niederreiter, these are guys that really got stuck in the mud early in their career...it probably robbed them of some offensive upside. You look at Conor Sheary, I'm not going to look it up, but I assume he played 10 minutes last night. You want Sprong doing that for 40 games in the regular season? Why? Who does that help? It's crazy to think that that will make people think that the draft pick is succeeding...

This is a long play to maximize the potential while we have time to maximize it. If he needed to be in the lineup, he would be. Instead, lower upside players are in the lineup...they're more versatile, they can move around, they don't require rhythm to play...Sprong needs some rhythm to be effective...he needs a little wind-up...you can't get that at 9 minutes...where a couple of special teams events happen and you go 8, 9 minutes without a shift - that's 16 to 18 real minutes...that's not going to work.

The Penguins are doing it exactly right. The prize is gonna be waiting for us at the finish line, as he's really coming along nicely. He just turned 21 last month, it's not like we're talking about 23, 24...

We have no good defensive prospects now that Lauzon had his neck meat re-arranged...but the rest of that "yikes" statement ought to be tempered...

Sheary has averaged 12 minutes per game these playoffs despite playing like garbage - and conceivably someone subbed in for him could earn more icetime if he weren't similarly useless - but regardless, I'd argue that Sprong playing 12 minutes per with one of Sid, Geno, or Brass at ES plus PP opportunities is better than not playing at all (for references sake, Simon averaged less than 12 minutes per in both the regular season and playoffs and has acquitted himself very well), particularly since the Pens don't have the luxury of letting him gestate until he's 23 or 24 because of the waiver implications of letting him hang around that first year. It's not like we can send him down in the fall - he's going to have to start in the NHL somewhere and the minor league option is no longer available.

To touch on the "versatility" argument, I'm not sure what versatility Sheary offers at this point, unless being equally bad offensively and defensively, up and down the line-up, and on both sides of center qualifies.

Further, it's not only about Sprong's development, it's about what helps the team. Sheary is actively hurting it, and Sprong represents a skill upgrade in areas where we could use it, particularly on the PP with Kessel hampered by injury.

 

[DanielPlainview]

I think it's pretty clear that Sprong was sent down this year because Sully thought ZAR and Simon helped the NHL team more than Sprong, not because they wanted Sprong playing more.

I'm not making any comparisons to ZAR or Simon. The team needs a scorer, or at least someone with a good shot, and they have one available. It is foolish to not play a young kid just because his game isn't 100% what you'd like it be right now. No one is asking him to carry the franchise.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'm not making any comparisons to ZAR or Simon. The team needs a scorer and they have one. It is foolish to not play a young kid just because his game isn't 100% what you'd like it be right now. No one is asking him to carry the franchise.

You seemed to be implying that they had him in the AHL because they thought it was better to have a big role there instead of a 4th line role in the NHL. And now that it's 4th line vs sitting, he should be in. I'm saying that the decision is 100% based on how they see him as an NHL player compared to our other options. So the fact that the AHL season is over and he's on a bean bag eating cheetos doesn't factor in at all.

Now, you can agree or disagree on the assessment of him as an NHL player. I would certainly understand if we put him in.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

You seemed to be implying that they had him in the AHL because they thought it was better to have a big role there instead of a 4th line role in the NHL. And now that it's 4th line vs sitting, he should be in. I'm saying that the decision is 100% based on how they see him as an NHL player compared to our other options. So the fact that the AHL season is over and he's on a bean bag eating cheetos doesn't factor in at all.

Now, you can agree or disagree on the assessment of him as an NHL player. I would certainly understand if we put him in.

Hmm, I don't think he's implying that. I think he's referencing Farkas' claim that 4th line minutes aren't going to benefit Sprong, but playing 4th line minutes are better than not playing at all, which is what he's doing now that the AHL season is over.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Hmm, I don't think he's implying that. I think he's referencing Farkas' claim that 4th line minutes aren't going to benefit Sprong, but playing 4th line minutes are better than not playing at all, which is what he's doing now that the AHL season is over.

fair enough, I haven't read everything else here. My point is that I don't think what will benefit Sprong is even being considered. Sully only cares about what will benefit the team right now. If I misunderstood what he was saying my bad.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

fair enough, I haven't read everything else here. My point is that I don't think what will benefit Sprong is even being considered. Sully only cares about what will benefit the team right now. If I misunderstood what he was saying my bad.

Definitely agree there. And that should be the coach's only concern. But I have to question Sully's judgement if he thinks Sheary's benefiting the team at all at this point.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Definitely agree there. And that should be the coach's only concern. But I have to question Sully's judgement if he thinks Sheary's benefiting the team at all at this point.

that's fair, but a whole different discussion

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

That's what I don't understand about things. You have Sheary, an all or nothing offensive player who has proven to be an ineffective post-season guy for several playoff runs now. He's struggling mightily yet again, and you have a potential replacement with an infinitely better shot, more size, speed and an offensive killer instinct waiting for his shot. What's the harm in swapping them out for one another? At worst, you get an ineffective, one-dimensional offensive player struggling in the playoff atmosphere. You're back to square one.

 

[DanielPlainview]

I don't really know what Sully's thinking is. He has Brassard on the 4th line, which I think is fine because he's been mostly invisible. But I would bet my house Kessel will never get the same treatment. It doesn't seem to matter how poorly some players are performing but for others it does. I think this hypocrisy is playing into the non-use of Sprong right now. There is no logic in thinking he couldn't help the team, even on the 4th line. He's the only guy they haven't played who has some flair on offense. But Sully is simply being stubborn, trying to get something out of the familiars.

 

[Peat]

I don't really know what Sully's thinking is. He has Brassard on the 4th line, which I think is fine because he's been mostly invisible. But I would bet my house Kessel will never get the same treatment. It doesn't seem to matter how poorly some players are performing but for others it does. I think this hypocrisy is playing into the non-use of Sprong right now. There is no logic in thinking he couldn't help the team, even on the 4th line. He's the only guy they haven't played who has some flair on offense. But Sully is simply being stubborn, trying to get something out of the familiars.

Kessel received a mighty 9 seconds more than Brassard at ES.

 

[Michael Farkas]

To be clear, this was a reference to the regular season (I mentioned 40 games)...and no one is talking about waiver exemption or 24 year olds. That's all just too far. Let's reel it back in to where we're at right now.

- The absolute right call was made in having Sprong play in the AHL this season without being jerked around back and forth and playing regular season lower line minutes.

- Sheary has earned some benefit of the doubt given his level of production in his short NHL career. He also has upside that needs to be nurtured. I know it's fun on the internet to go all crazy about what's happened in the last game, last week, last month or last season...but we're talking about a professional franchise here. Sheary has pop-gun offense, if you will, so in short spurts he can wind his way through a weaker pairing. He has shown that ability - though without cashing - in this series...and he's shown it previously. I want to unwrap the shiny new toy too, but there's a process to this.

- Do I think Sprong would be better off playing 4th line minutes now than not playing at all? At this point, probably. As someone who is fortunate enough to be in the player development game myself, a lot of people tend to think that games are the main developmental piece for prospects. That's not true. It's practice. However, games (and more accurately, usage) can dictate what is being practiced. I referenced Nino and Coots before because of their roles and their roles begot a certain practice structure/practice linemates/etc. I feel confident in saying that Sprong has gotten a lot of good developmental practice time, I think Ty is doing a great job with him. Could you play some games in the NHL now? Sure. Where does he slot in? I'm not really sure. You don't want to a put a player in a position to fail, especially in a big spot.

- Do I want Sprong in the lineup? I do. I'm a very big fan of his and have been since his time in the Q before we had him. Do I see a realistic spot where he can swap in at the moment? Hmm, I'm not real sure unless Rust somehow learns to play his off-wing after lunch today...and given what's got going on right now, I'm not sure we need to complicate his game any. Sprong can play in the NHL now, but so can a lot of guys that are already in the lineup...so it can be tough to manage a little bit. I respect that.

 

[DanielPlainview]

That's fine, but line combinations matter. Sheary-Sheahan-Kessel has to be the most useless Top 9 line Sully has ever concocted. Sheary can't stay on his feet and seems allergic to shooting, Sheahan doesn't want the puck, and Kessel looks like he's playing at 40%.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Coaching lineage and handedness. Trace the roots, leads to lineup decisions.

Mike Sullivan, a disciple of John Tortorella; Tortorella, a disciple of Rick Dudley; Rick Dudley last years in the league were under Scotty Bowman and Roger Nielsen...two great hockey minds, who both very much valued handedness and placement of LD to RD, 1D to 1C, C to W, C to opposing C, etc. - this is evident in lineup decisions past and present. Even inferior players like Oleksy playing over better LHS options on defense. Ruhwedel's use, etc. Similar situation for wingers vs. role.

Sheahan - in Sully's mind - likely helps cover for the mistakes of the "other" winger. He's been a rock defensively. I'd bet my paycheck that fewer goals go in when he's out there than any other center we have.

 

[Peat]

Hmm, I'm not real sure unless Rust somehow learns to play his off-wing after lunch today...and given what's got going on right now, I'm not sure we need to complicate his game any.

I've personally thought he's done okay on his left this season, and he has had a decent chunk of time there with Kessel on the right wing.

But I might be wrong.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I've personally thought he's done okay on his left this season, and he has had a decent chunk of time there with Kessel on the right wing.

But I might be wrong.

This year I definitely agree. He played the hags role across from kessel very well this year.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Rust has been fighting the puck a bit this postseason, putting him in a position now where the puck is constantly exposed and he's expected to shoot and quite possibly with a lame duck (Kessel...or here, Sheary (?)) on the other side to take none of the bullets for him is a tough ask for him right now. Maybe if he gets some confidence by scoring some late goals in this series to propel us to a 6-game victory over these kong donkeys, then maybe I go that direction...right now, the only thing he's really bringing his forecheck/defense and speed. Putting him on his wrong side puts him at a disadvantage to that in my opinion.

That said, if Sully comes out with that next game, I'm not gonna say boo about it because it's reasonable, I'm a nobody, he's never lost a playoff series with the team and currently, no one is closer to winning the Cup than us right now at 6 down, 10 to go...

I must say, of all the Penguins teams I've seen over the years...I trust this group the most. That doesn't mean that we'll win it all again...but the chances of things just going off the rails, in my opinion, is much lower than any team I've seen...


EDIT: Sorry, I'm in the Sprong thread and derailing this. My apologies.