Daniel & Henrik Sedin Thread - Part III (MOD Notice Post # 53)

[moog35]

Which team are you a fan of? You should go back to whichever forum you're from, as you're obviously not a Canucks fan.

So because I don't like the Sedins push back I'm not a Canucks fan? If your calling me out for that then you should be over in the Benning thread calling out everyone who hates on Benning and every single move he makes, or the posters hating on Miller cause Lack is likely getting traded.

Fact - the Sedins are two of the greatest Canucks of all time.
- they also happen to be two of the softest players in Canucks history and show the least amount of push back of any stars in the game.

 

[topched88]

So because I don't like the Sedins push back I'm not a Canucks fan? If your calling me out for that then you should be over in the Benning thread calling out everyone who hates on Benning and every single move he makes, or the posters hating on Miller cause Lack is likely getting traded.

Fact - the Sedins are two of the greatest Canucks of all time.
- they also happen to be two of the softest players in Canucks history and show the least amount of push back of any stars in the game.

You call them soft but they are arguably some of the best and strongest players in the league, and the fact henrik had the ironman streak shows they have ability to play through nagging injuries. The fact that Torts said these guys are not soft should be an indication.

The lack of pushback comes from the fact that, over the course of the past 15 years in the nhl getting punched in the face repeatedly is usually a powerplay. Often, the sedins not reacting would get them a man advantage which they would use to try and you know, win the game. Go back to the SJ series in 2011 to see, that when SJ started taking shots at the sedins, thier way of pushing back was burying them on the scoreboard. As this happens they are going to have less incentive to take runs at these guys especially in tight games, as they wont want to get burned.

However! I do agree with posters who cite games that are not close on the scoreboard, such as some instances in boston where a pushback was needed. This is compounded by the fact that as the series went on, the Sedins should have clued in the game was being called differently, and they were unlikely to draw a powerplay with not retaliating.

My issue is when they get referred to as soft. They do not play a soft game at all, they just dont get invovled in things between the whistles, which players of their caliber really shouldn't. For anyone calling them soft, I would love to see them get out of bed in the morning and go play a game after taking the same abuse these guys do over an 82 game season and playoff series.

 

[fancouver]

You call them soft but they are arguably some of the best and strongest players in the league, and the fact henrik had the ironman streak shows they have ability to play through nagging injuries. The fact that Torts said these guys are not soft should be an indication.

The lack of pushback comes from the fact that, over the course of the past 15 years in the nhl getting punched in the face repeatedly is usually a powerplay. Often, the sedins not reacting would get them a man advantage which they would use to try and you know, win the game. Go back to the SJ series in 2011 to see, that when SJ started taking shots at the sedins, thier way of pushing back was burying them on the scoreboard. As this happens they are going to have less incentive to take runs at these guys especially in tight games, as they wont want to get burned.

However! I do agree with posters who cite games that are not close on the scoreboard, such as some instances in boston where a pushback was needed. This is compounded by the fact that as the series went on, the Sedins should have clued in the game was being called differently, and they were unlikely to draw a powerplay with not retaliating.

My issue is when they get referred to as soft. They do not play a soft game at all, they just dont get invovled in things between the whistles, which players of their caliber really shouldn't. For anyone calling them soft, I would love to see them get out of bed in the morning and go play a game after taking the same abuse these guys do over an 82 game season and playoff series.

Sedins aren't soft in that sense. It's really the pushback some fans would like to see from the top players on their team. Some games you should set a statement and not let Marchand punch you 5 times.

This is not going to happen, but I really think the Sedins should consider waiving and doing what Iginla did. I don't think they'll win the cup in Vancouver, but they can still push a team over the top if they were support players. Sedins can continue to be great community leaders in Vancouver, but for the on-ice product, a change is needed.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Sedins aren't soft in that sense. It's really the pushback some fans would like to see from the top players on their team. Some games you should set a statement and not let Marchand punch you 5 times.

This is not going to happen, but I really think the Sedins should consider waiving and doing what Iginla did. I don't think they'll win the cup in Vancouver, but they can still push a team over the top if they were support players. Sedins can continue to be great community leaders in Vancouver, but for the on-ice product, a change is needed.

Absolutely agree with this. And as I've mentioned before, there are teams that can absorb the full $14M cap hits of the Sedins. Nashville being one, and Anaheim being another (disregarding any internal cap they may have). These are two contenders that could get them a Cup, and both have assets and could make a very attractive offer.

 

[NeoCanuck]

For the past 14 seasons we've been dealt with these handicaps involving the Sedins:

1). Line-up restrictions. You don't split them up, they are paired at all times and are very rarely if ever split up.
2). The cycle. They haven't adapted in their careers to add more dynamics to their game. It works, but if you play a team in a 7 game series, around the mid-way mark, defenders will get your gimmick and adjust (Boston in 2011).
3). They aren't cerebral players. I would put players such as Toews, Kesler, Bergeron, Giroux etc..as players who have another gear to will their way to making things happen. The Sedins are fantastic human beings and great hockey players, but they lack this gear that is needed to boost a team to the next level.

I look at sucessful teams and beyond having multi-talented core players whom are clearly defined, it's that these core players can be used in multiple situations and affect the game in all areas.

I love Daniel and Henrik, but I think as we have had the "Twin" gimmick on the team and it's relative regular season success, it's also hindered us with the "Twin" rules.

 

[topheavyhookjaw]

For the past 14 seasons we've been dealt with these handicaps involving the Sedins:

1). Line-up restrictions. You don't split them up, they are paired at all times and are very rarely if ever split up.
2). The cycle. They haven't adapted in their careers to add more dynamics to their game. It works, but if you play a team in a 7 game series, around the mid-way mark, defenders will get your gimmick and adjust (Boston in 2011).
3). They aren't cerebral players. I would put players such as Toews, Kesler, Bergeron, Giroux etc..as players who have another gear to will their way to making things happen. The Sedins are fantastic human beings and great hockey players, but they lack this gear that is needed to boost a team to the next level.

I look at sucessful teams and beyond having multi-talented core players whom are clearly defined, it's that these core players can be used in multiple situations and affect the game in all areas.

I love Daniel and Henrik, but I think as we have had the "Twin" gimmick on the team and it's relative regular season success, it's also hindered us with the "Twin" rules.

I don't think you know what cerebral means.

However, you make some good points. But I think the key to team building is knowing the shortcomings of your stars. The difference between the success of Toews/Kane, Kopitar/Doughty, Bergeron/Chara star pairings have and the twins, or Giroux/Voracek, or even Crosby and Malkin for past 5-6 years is a lot in how management has or hasn't identified what those players lack and filled holes appropriately.

The 2010-11 team excelled because it was the best complement around the talent in place (a bunch of swiss army knife forwards around 3 stars).

If you look at Hawks and Kings for instance, they've supported stars with a steady stream of young cheap NHLers filling roles throughout the lineup and have moved on from supporting pieces when they get too pricey. Canucks haven't done that in the least (until arguably last season when some rookies got meaningful time and played well).

If you look at the past 6 cup champs, they aren't the teams with clearcut best stars in the league, they all have great players but they are deep teams that have supporting casts that complement the stars they have.

(this isn't just a Sedin defense piece, they certainly have shortcomings, not least of which is they're 34 now).

 

[NeoCanuck]

I don't think you know what cerebral means.

I'm noting that the players I listed have a strong ability to analyze a situation through their intellect and then with their additional emotional gear, can go out on the ice and make the required actions happen.

 

[fancouver]

Absolutely agree with this. And as I've mentioned before, there are teams that can absorb the full $14M cap hits of the Sedins. Nashville being one, and Anaheim being another (disregarding any internal cap they may have). These are two contenders that could get them a Cup, and both have assets and could make a very attractive offer.

Both those teams would be fantastic destinations. Anaheim likely wins a cup with the Sedins+Kesler. I'd love to see something involving Silferberg or with Nashville, something centered around Forsberg.

 

[topheavyhookjaw]

I'm noting that the players I listed have a strong ability to analyze a situation through their intellect and then with their additional emotional gear, can go out on the ice and make the required actions happen.

I really don't think the Sedins' problem is that they don't realize or analyze the game well enough to know when a situation is big. And the players you lumped together there appear to be emotionally very different, Toews and Bergeron seem preternaturally level headed and calm in all situations which allows them to excel under pressure. While Giroux is often a hothead, who will take undisciplined penalties against rivals in emotional settings, and Kesler is even moreso that way. And I think cerebral is the last word I'd ever use to describe Kesler.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Both those teams would be fantastic destinations. Anaheim likely wins a cup with the Sedins+Kesler. I'd love to see something involving Silferberg or with Nashville, something centered around Forsberg.

Neither is likely, and neither would be my main targets.

From Nashville I would be looking for something involving Ellis, Smith/Wilson, Fiala, and a 1st round pick.

From Anaheim I would be looking for something involving Theodore, Ritchie, Etem, perhaps John Gibson, and a 1st round pick.

 

[HankNDank]

Neither is likely, and neither would be my main targets.

From Nashville I would be looking for something involving Ellis, Smith/Wilson, Fiala, and a 1st round pick.

From Anaheim I would be looking for something involving Theodore, Ritchie, Etem, perhaps John Gibson, and a 1st round pick.

Huh. Figured you'd be happy with a 6th round pick, gaining their useless waste of capspace being enough.

 

[NeoCanuck]

I really don't think the Sedins' problem is that they don't realize or analyze the game well enough to know when a situation is big. And the players you lumped together there appear to be emotionally very different, Toews and Bergeron seem preternaturally level headed and calm in all situations which allows them to excel under pressure. While Giroux is often a hothead, who will take undisciplined penalties against rivals in emotional settings, and Kesler is even moreso that way. And I think cerebral is the last word I'd ever use to describe Kesler.

Well we can agree to disagree. I feel that those players I listed have a very analytical playstyle based on their understanding of how the game is played. The Sedins I feel just don't dictate the pace of games as well as other core players on other teams do, along with having a handicap set of rules given to the team that the Sedins play on.

 

[HankNDank]

Well we can agree to disagree. I feel that those players I listed have a very analytical playstyle based on their understanding of how the game is played. The Sedins I feel just don't dictate the pace of games as well as other core players on other teams do, along with having a handicap set of rules given to the team that the Sedins play on.

It's funny that you call it a handicap to having the twins play together, when in my over 10 year of watching them play together, I would generally use the word magic.

 

[NeoCanuck]

It's funny that you call it a handicap to having the twins play together, when in my over 10 year of watching them play together, I would generally use the word magic.

It's great when the Twins are on their game and everything is going smoothly.

It's the times where they struggle, when they are mis-matched against a stronger defensive opponent where it turns into a "nailing your head against the wall" type of mentality.

On other teams if your core forwards are struggling, you can shuffle their lines, adjust who they play against/with. With the Twins, again, it's the Twins rule. You don't split them up, just the RW that plays with them. It's still the cycle, it's still the same thing that the defensive team has adjusted to.

 

[JuniorNelson]

3). They aren't cerebral players. I would put players such as Toews, Kesler, Bergeron, Giroux etc..as players who have another gear to will their way to making things happen. The Sedins are fantastic human beings and great hockey players, but they lack this gear that is needed to boost a team to the next level.

This poster meant to say "visceral", I think. He's right, too. This is my only problem with the Sedins. They patterned their deportment on Naslund and Sundin, two epic non-winners.

 

[NeoCanuck]

This poster meant to say "visceral", I think. He's right, too. This is my only problem with the Sedins. They patterned their deportment on Naslund and Sundin, two epic non-winners.

Yes, that would be a better choice of wording. Thanks for clearing it up for me

 

[DS7]

I wonder, if the Sedins don't retire at the end of their contracts, would anyone here be open to signing them to a brad richards' like contract? say 2 years, $2 million depending on how our forward prospects develop and if there's room for them? They may not be first line players anymore by that time, but they'd be amazing depth.

 

[thepuckmonster]

I wonder, if the Sedins don't retire at the end of their contracts, would anyone here be open to signing them to a brad richards' like contract? say 2 years, $2 million depending on how our forward prospects develop and if there's room for them? They may not be first line players anymore by that time, but they'd be amazing depth.

I would, absolutely. I believe it was brought up a few seasons ago that if they run out their last contract and want to stay they would just sign one-years after that to prevent any cap penalties if they retired before the end of the deal.

 

[DL44]

I wonder, if the Sedins don't retire at the end of their contracts, would anyone here be open to signing them to a brad richards' like contract? say 2 years, $2 million depending on how our forward prospects develop and if there's room for them? They may not be first line players anymore by that time, but they'd be amazing depth.

I'm fully expecting them to stick around after their contracts are up...
3 yrs is not that far away and I expect them to still be 50+ pt scorers.

So with that being my expectation, they will probably garner 2 yr $4-5 mil/per each... dependent on cap at the time.

But it all depends on their level of actual production at that point.

Can't think of too many players that were top 10 scorers at 34 and then out of the league 3 yrs later.
I'm sure compared to the the few examples people will be able to find to contradict that previous thought, the Sedins' playing style doesn't really predispose them to that type of drop off... i.e. MSL would was so dependent on his quickness and speed.

 

[Jay Cee]

With over half the league with cap issues, they would be nearly impossible to move, but I would like to explore the possibility. That ship has really sailed.

 

[Addison Rae]

Neither is likely, and neither would be my main targets.

From Nashville I would be looking for something involving Ellis, Smith/Wilson, Fiala, and a 1st round pick.

From Anaheim I would be looking for something involving Theodore, Ritchie, Etem, perhaps John Gibson, and a 1st round pick.

dfkm, even I would accept these offers. So you expect teams to part with 5 first round picks for overpaid soft, declining, non playoff performing twins? If the Sedins were as you said they are, they couldn't return a 3rd.

 

[vanuck]

dfkm, even I would accept these offers. So you expect teams to part with 5 first round picks for overpaid soft, declining, non playoff performing twins? If the Sedins were as you said they are, they couldn't return a 3rd.

Yep. Therein lies the fallacy!

 

[The Jesus*]

I've always had the feeling that when the Sedins believe they can't be top players anymore, they'll hang em up and walk away.

I've never worried about the last year or two of their contract because of that. They want to win. They want to be the guys. And right now, they still are the guys. The day they stop believing that, I think they retire and go back home to Sweden.

 

[ahmon]

Neither is likely, and neither would be my main targets.

From Nashville I would be looking for something involving Ellis, Smith/Wilson, Fiala, and a 1st round pick.

From Anaheim I would be looking for something involving Theodore, Ritchie, Etem, perhaps John Gibson, and a 1st round pick.

Yeah both of these are good destinations.

But from everything I heard from Management, I doubt they have the balls to trade the Sedins.

And I`m not sure the ownership will allow a full rebuild.

 

[me2]

With over half the league with cap issues, they would be nearly impossible to move, but I would like to explore the possibility. That ship has really sailed.

Rubbish. Retained salary. Eat 1/2 their contract and that is $3.5m each, for top 6 players that is ludicrously good, no, great value. 2 1st liners for $7m, insanely good value. Both Sedins for what Stastny got, the queue would at least 10 GMs deep if not longer.

Now take back a salary dump or two and you would get a eye wateringly good return.