Proposal: (DAL-COL): Barrie+4th Round Pick for 2017 3OA+2nd Round Pick

[The Madrigal]

Wasn't Ghost a healthy scratch this past season?

Barrie plays over 23 minutes a game. Ghost doesn't even play 20.

Moronic decision by a moronic coach which has no relevance.

Wait, you mean Barrie plays three more minutes a game than Ghost? You really got me there, he is definitely worth a million more on the cap than him

 

[Patagonia]

Dallas has to decide on if they want to chase the Cup in the next few years. They got lucky with the draft and can choose a player likely 2-4 years away which is their window to win or take a proven player. Barrie is better than the other options Tanev, Vantanen, Pulock, but not Hanifin or Harmonic assuming if offered.

I don't believe Dallas needs Barrie, but having them on an already deadly Offence will allow them to outshoot the other team which is still better than their current position of drafting and wait 2-4 years.

 

[Avs71]

Moronic decision by a moronic coach which has no relevance.

Wait, you mean Barrie plays three more minutes a game than Ghost? You really got me there, he is definitely worth a million more on the cap than him

You haven't proved Barrie isn't worth 5.5 million. You've just compared him to a defenceman who gets healthy scratched and plays borderline 3rd pairing minutes...

 

[WhatWhat]

Dallas has to decide on if they want to chase the Cup in the next few years. They got lucky with the draft and can choose a player likely 2-4 years away which is their window to win or take a proven player. Barrie is better than the other options Tanev, Vantanen, Pulock, but not Hanifin or Harmonic assuming if offered.

I don't believe Dallas needs Barrie, but having them on an already deadly Offence will allow them to outshoot the other team which is still better than their current position of drafting and wait 2-4 years.

our window isnt 2-4 years. Benn is the oldest of the core and is 28. Then you have Klingberg and Seguin at 25. In 4 years those 2 will still be under 30

 

[Patagonia]

our window isnt 2-4 years. Benn is the oldest of the core and is 28. Then you have Klingberg and Seguin at 25. In 4 years those 2 will still be under 30

Dallas is undergoing major changes and the core only has 2 years remaining. Hamuis (34) and Spezza (33) need to be replaced. Seguin (2019 - UFA) and the rest of the team (except 4 players) will need contracts on signed for 2 more years (2019/20) season.

They will have to decide to rebuild or pursue a championship.

 

[falconski]

Dallas is undergoing major changes and the core only has 2 years remaining. Hamuis (34) and Spezza (33) need to be replaced. Seguin (2019 - UFA) and the rest of the team (except 4 players) will need contracts on signed for 2 more years (2019/20) season.

They will have to decide to rebuild or pursue a championship.

As much as the blind haters are going to complain Barrie is overpaid and not with the third overall ITT, he is absolutely not a need for Dallas, they already have klingberg

 

[Patagonia]

As much as the blind haters are going to complain Barrie is overpaid and not with the third overall ITT, he is absolutely not a need for Dallas, they already have klingberg

Absolutely, Barrie is overpaid and the Avs can retain a portion of the salary. Yet, don't see why Dallas would consider a similar player to Kling that plays poor Defence. Instead of trying to keep the puck out of their zone, they need to outscore their opponents every game.

 

[Ivan13]

A person highly skilled in specific and restricted field. You can be highly skilled in more than one specific field. So yeah you can be a 1st pairing guy and a PP specialist. As in you are around really good at hockey but you are also elite on the power play.


You can also be a 3rd pairing guy who is a PP specialist. You aren't great 5V5 but good enough. But on the PP you dominate. They aren't exclusive

How convinient you left of the first sentence of the definition.

 

[Halla]

Picks 3 and 39 for Barrie and 92.

thats pretty brutal for Dallas.

Pick 9 from Detroit would be more reasonable

 

[glovesave_35]

You know you can be a PP specialist and a good defenseman. PP specialist doesn't mean only good at PP. It means they can run a PP. You can be a top pairing guy and a PP specialist or you can be a 3rd pairing guy and a PP specialist.

I and probably most here would disagree with this.

The qualifier "specialist" is there specifically to differentiate between all around or top pairing level defensemen who are deadly on the PP and defensemen whose primary, and often sole, reason for being on a team is to contribute on the PP. There is an implication that if they were not better than average or elite on the PP that they would struggle to stay in the lineup, or at the very least have severe deficiencies in other aspects of their game that require "protecting" when on the ice at even strength.

You are using that phrase interchangeably with "PP QB" when those aren't the same. In fact, the PP specialist D-man is often not even his team's PP QB but rather the trigger man.

 

[glovesave_35]

Dallas has to decide on if they want to chase the Cup in the next few years. They got lucky with the draft and can choose a player likely 2-4 years away which is their window to win or take a proven player. Barrie is better than the other options Tanev, Vantanen, Pulock, but not Hanifin or Harmonic assuming if offered.

I don't believe Dallas needs Barrie, but having them on an already deadly Offence will allow them to outshoot the other team which is still better than their current position of drafting and wait 2-4 years.

Dallas is undergoing major changes and the core only has 2 years remaining. Hamuis (34) and Spezza (33) need to be replaced. Seguin (2019 - UFA) and the rest of the team (except 4 players) will need contracts on signed for 2 more years (2019/20) season.

They will have to decide to rebuild or pursue a championship.

I don't really agree with your premise that Dallas has a 2-3 year window to compete for a Cup. Obviously, that would be ideal, but in reality it depends on the quantity and quality of young players who can supplement the established veteran talent.

In any case, even if I agreed with your premise, I just don't see how adding Barrie would be the type of move that would push things over the top. In a vacuum, adding a player of Barrie's caliber would be a huge upgrade. The problem is that we already have a better Barrie, and the addition of Barrie would or could impede upgrading the areas of the roster that are actually in need of improvement.

If this were Ruff's Stars, maybe they go after him in order to push that offense down everyone's throats even harder. But these aren't his Stars anymore and the direction the team has made with the coaching hire is one that shows an acceptance that a more well rounded team and style is needed to win in the playoffs. Adding Barrie would be out of sync given the coaching hire. To be honest, it would make more sense to be looking for 2C help, someone who can play C/W with Spezza who can play C/W and then take over for him as he regresses and leaves the team.

Instead of trying to keep the puck out of their zone, they need to outscore their opponents every game.

This has proven to not work.

 

[glovesave_35]

You haven't proved Barrie isn't worth 5.5 million. You've just compared him to a defenceman who gets healthy scratched and plays borderline 3rd pairing minutes...

It's hard to totally get a hold on Philly's situation given how few of their defensemen played a full season. In any case, it looks like the minutes were really spread around that D-corps. Ghost may have clocked less than 20 minutes per game but he was 3rd on his team in TOI/G this year and 4th last year. He's clearly playing 2nd pairing minutes within the structure of his team.

Probably not worth the time posting since I essentially agree with you I would just add that comparing two guys' contracts that are totally different in term and relative to NHL service time is not all that fruitful.

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

I think paying the 3rd OA and a second-round pick for Barrie is an overpayment. 3rd OA and a late draft pick or a fringe prospect might suffice.

 

[krt88]

No way I'm trading the 3rd overall pick for Tyson Barrie. Yeah I know it's not a great draft but the deal seems like Dallas loses serious value.

 

[cgf]

A person highly skilled in specific and restricted field. You can be highly skilled in more than one specific field. So yeah you can be a 1st pairing guy and a PP specialist. As in you are around really good at hockey but you are also elite on the power play.


You can also be a 3rd pairing guy who is a PP specialist. You aren't great 5V5 but good enough. But on the PP you dominate. They aren't exclusive

Yeah but Barrie isn't highly skilled on the PP, he's pretty average. If anything Barrie is a 5on5 specialist.

 

[The Madrigal]

You haven't proved Barrie isn't worth 5.5 million. You've just compared him to a defenceman who gets healthy scratched and plays borderline 3rd pairing minutes...

He was a healthy scratch a couple of times and it was a stupid decision/attempt to get him playing better. It wasn't because there was 3 defenseman on the Flyers playing better, let alone 6. You are making the statement as if he is some defenseman who can barely crack a lineup which isn't the case. Furthermore, over the last two years Ghost has produced at a higher PPG average and they are both offensive defenseman who will always be primarly judged on production and not defensive acumen.

Regardless, and in response to your first statement:

Tyson Barrie - 5.5 million
Morgan Rielly - 5.0 million
Shayne Gostisbehere - 4.5 million
John Klinberg - 4.25 million
Oskar Klefbom - 4.167 million

All four of those defenseman are younger than Barrie, as good or better, and are either similar players or bring some of the same qualities. All of them signed long term contracts either this year or last and are making less than Barrie for more years.

Yeah, Barrie is overpaid, proven.

 

[strictlyrandy]

He was a healthy scratch a couple of times and it was a stupid decision/attempt to get him playing better. It wasn't because there was 3 defenseman on the Flyers playing better, let alone 6. You are making the statement as if he is some defenseman who can barely crack a lineup which isn't the case. Furthermore, over the last two years Ghost has produced at a higher PPG average and they are both offensive defenseman who will always be primarly judged on production and not defensive acumen.

Regardless, and in response to your first statement:

Tyson Barrie - 5.5 million
Morgan Rielly - 5.0 million
Shayne Gostisbehere - 4.5 million
John Klinberg - 4.25 million
Oskar Klefbom - 4.167 million

All four of those defenseman are younger than Barrie, as good or better, and are either similar players or bring some of the same qualities. All of them signed long term contracts either this year or last and are making less than Barrie for more years.

Yeah, Barrie is overpaid, proven.

Offense is a premium.. Barrie puts up points and got paid for it. In a down year he still had 38 points. He also costs more because his deal bought a couple of UFA years iirc.

You really haven't proven Barrie is overpaid considering those.

Rielly hasn't out produced Barrie. Neither has Ghost. Even Klefbom's best offensive year matched Barrie's worst. Klingberg is the only one who has and he's 2 years younger than Barrie and his long term deal took place instead of a bridge contract before the 2015 season. He is underpaid.

I get hating on Avs players you watch maybe a couple times a year is the thing to do, especially after a historically bad season, but do some actual research into how the league operates and the premiums placed on offense before spouting nonsense.

 

[WhatWhat]

Yeah but Barrie isn't highly skilled on the PP, he's pretty average. If anything Barrie is a 5on5 specialist.

That's fine then I'm just saying that being a specialist isn't a bad thing and doesn't mean you are **** at the rest of what you do. You can be a very talented individual who specializes in something. That specialization doesn't eliminate the rest of the skill you have

 

[WhatWhat]

How convinient you left of the first sentence of the definition.

You used a semi colon so I went for the sentence that makes more sense... I could have instead ignored your definition and used the one that pops up on Google

"the process of concentrating on and becoming expert in a particular subject or skill."

Which would again fit my point that being a PP specialist isn't exclusive from being a good a defencemen. You just choose to focus on that area of the game because you consider it important.

 

[The Madrigal]

Offense is a premium.. Barrie puts up points and got paid for it. In a down year he still had 38 points. He also costs more because his deal bought a couple of UFA years iirc.

Ghost's deal bought out 3 years of UFA status. Klinberg, Rielly, and Klebom's all bought out two years. So the same can be said for of those players.

You really haven't proven Barrie is overpaid considering those.

Rielly hasn't out produced Barrie.

No he hasn't. However, he has put similar numbers to what Barrie did this past year. He is also a former top 5 pick and just turned 23. His upside is probably the highest of the players I brought up.

Neither has Ghost.

You love a lot of credibility with that statement as it is factually 100% incorrect. Since Ghost has entered the league two years ago he has 85 points in 140 games to Barrie's 88 points in 152 games. Ghost is at 0.61 PPG while Barrie is at 0.58 PPG. So we are talking slightly better production at a million less per season.

Even Klefbom's best offensive year matched Barrie's worst.

Klefbom is a better defensive player, is making almost 1.5 million less per season than Barrie, and is a rising star. Come back and talk to me about Klefbom in a year or two.

Klingberg is the only one who has and he's 2 years younger than Barrie and his long term deal took place instead of a bridge contract before the 2015 season. He is underpaid.

Circumstances are irrelevant. Klinberg is a younger more production version of Barrie who has a cap hit of 1.25 million less than him.

I get hating on Avs players you watch maybe a couple times a year is the thing to do, especially after a historically bad season, but do some actual research into how the league operates and the premiums placed on offense before spouting nonsense.

I'm not hating on anyone, I am stating factual information. Furthermore, no team's players seem to end up in more trade proposals on this forum this off season than Avs players. Something people need to accept is if a team is going to trade players who are coming off of a down year or two they are not going to get premium value for them. Tyson Barrie for the 3rd overall pick is absurd. Colorado also gets additional value with a 2nd for a 4th round pick in the deal which makes it even more absurd. Also, using Barrie's contract as a positive to his trade value holds no water when there are younger players producing at a similar or better rate than him and/or are better defensively then him making 0.5 - 1.6 million less than him on their AAV for a long term no less. Facts are facts.

 

[Ivan13]

He was a healthy scratch a couple of times and it was a stupid decision/attempt to get him playing better. It wasn't because there was 3 defenseman on the Flyers playing better, let alone 6. You are making the statement as if he is some defenseman who can barely crack a lineup which isn't the case. Furthermore, over the last two years Ghost has produced at a higher PPG average and they are both offensive defenseman who will always be primarly judged on production and not defensive acumen.

Regardless, and in response to your first statement:

Tyson Barrie - 5.5 million
Morgan Rielly - 5.0 million
Shayne Gostisbehere - 4.5 million
John Klinberg - 4.25 million
Oskar Klefbom - 4.167 million

All four of those defenseman are younger than Barrie, as good or better, and are either similar players or bring some of the same qualities. All of them signed long term contracts either this year or last and are making less than Barrie for more years.

Yeah, Barrie is overpaid, proven.

Might be news to you but there's​ RFA years and UFA years, they aren't paid the same. Might want take a look how many of UFA/RFA years Barrie signed for and how many did the others sign for.

 

[The Madrigal]

Might be news to you but there's​ RFA years and UFA years, they aren't paid the same. Might want take a look how many of UFA/RFA years Barrie signed for and how many did the others sign for.

Might be news to you but your point doesn't help your argument in the slightest bit. I addressed this very thing in the my last post.

Years of UFA eligibility given up on their current deals:

Shayne Gostisbehere - 3 years
John Klingberg - 2 years
Morgan Rielly - 2 years
Oskar Klefbom - 2 years
Tyson Barrie - 2 years

The only way your point has any merit is if Barrie gave up more UFA years than the other guys and he did not, and even gave up less than Ghost did.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Might be news to you but your point doesn't help your argument in the slightest bit. I addressed this very thing in the my last post.

Years of UFA eligibility given up on their current deals:

Shayne Gostisbehere - 3 years
John Klingberg - 2 years
Morgan Rielly - 2 years
Oskar Klefbom - 2 years
Tyson Barrie - 2 years

The only way your point has any merit is if Barrie gave up more UFA years than the other guys and he did not, and even gave up less than Ghost did.

No, the significant difference is barrie was on a 3rd contract, while all of those guys signed long term deals coming out of an ELC.

There's more value that comes with being more prove, as Barrie was.

It's the same situation as Tavares. Signed after his ELC.

Contracts are almost always lowered when a player is further away from UFA like all your comparables are.

 

[The Madrigal]

No, the significant difference is barrie was on a 3rd contract, while all of those guys signed long term deals coming out of an ELC.

There's more value that comes with being more prove, as Barrie was.

It's the same situation as Tavares. Signed after his ELC.

Contracts are almost always lowered when a player is further away from UFA like all your comparables are.

If those are the lengths you need to go to to convince yourself that Barrie isn't overpaid, you have to do what you have to do.

The fact is those teams skipped the bridge contract with those players and got them at a much better value (giving up as many or more UFA than the Avs did with Barrie) as a result. It's a clear case of certain teams doing a better job at negotiating and getting their players under contract long term for a quality price than others. These types of organizational decisions is what leads to a player being overpaid or not, in addition to where their careers take them after signing. In the case of Barrie, his production has decreased which is again a fact that some are having a hard time accepting.

The bottom line is I named four young D as examples who are as good or better than Barrie, only slightly younger than him, with cap hits ranging from 0.5 million to 1.3 million less than his. In each case the players gave up as many or more UFA years in their contracts that Barrie did. At the end of the day you can accept those as facts that Barrie is overpaid based on what other teams were able to do with similar young D or not. Either way it doesn't change the fact that the going rate for similar players signed around the same time significantly determines what is or is not a good contract and Barrie is overpaid based on comparable players and situations at this time.

 

[falconski]

If those are the lengths you need to go to to convince yourself that Barrie isn't overpaid, you have to do what you have to do.

The fact is those teams skipped the bridge contract with those players and got them at a much better value (giving up as many or more UFA than the Avs did with Barrie) as a result. It's a clear case of certain teams doing a better job at negotiating and getting their players under contract long term for a quality price than others. These types of organizational decisions is what leads to a player being overpaid or not, in addition to where their careers take them after signing. In the case of Barrie, his production has decreased which is again a fact that some are having a hard time accepting.

The bottom line is I named four young D as examples who are as good or better than Barrie, only slightly younger than him, with cap hits ranging from 0.5 million to 1.3 million less than his. In each case the players gave up as many or more UFA years in their contracts that Barrie did. At the end of the day you can accept those as facts that Barrie is overpaid based on what other teams were able to do with similar young D or not. Either way it doesn't change the fact that the going rate for similar players signed around the same time significantly determines what is or is not a good contract and Barrie is overpaid based on comparable players and situations at this time.

Barrie: 50% UFA

Ghost: 50% UFA but undeniably worse than Barrie (I know you're a blind hater but Barrie would have never been healthy scratched this year on any team including the flyers)

Klingberg: 28% UFA
Reilly: 33% UFA
Klinberg: 28% UFA
klefbom: 28% UFA


Attack sakic for giving a bridge all you want but Barrie is clearly market value for his age/contract