D Ville Heinola - Manitoba Moose, AHL (2019, 20th, WPG)

[FinPanda]

He has some work to do on the defensive zone understandably, but when he is on the offensive zone.. On pace to 82 point season.

 

[Atoyot]

He has some work to do on the defensive zone understandably, but when he is on the offensive zone.. On pace to 82 point season.

He's looked pretty good in the defensive zone by my eye-test, but that might just be relative to our insanely depleted defense.

 

[Mrb1p]

At one point I had the kid at #6 overall. Kicking myself for dropping him 3 spots.

 

[ijuka]

Time to start the conversation for the calder trophy!

 

[Mrb1p]

Time to start the conversation for the calder trophy!

Honestly, hes so smart I wouldnt even be surprised. Lets hope he keeps playign 20 minutes and doesnt get the Claude Julien treatment.

 

[bl02]

Honestly, hes so smart I wouldnt even be surprised. Lets hope he keeps playign 20 minutes and doesnt get the Claude Julien treatment.

I watched him play both of these games in NY/NJ. Kid looks to have a tremendous IQ. Doesn't look phased at all playing against guys a decade older than him and bigger than him. He made some really nice plays in the O zone to keep plays alive and made it look easy.

 

[bigdog16]

He looks calm and cool out there. Nothing really electric about him, just makes good plays. Dont see him having any shot at the Calder though

 

[Daximus]

Heinola didn't magically become tenfold better over the summer. You had Byram significantly ahead of Heinola because you didn't have a good understanding of Heinola.

This development path-excuse you adore using for CHL prospects is very tired. I'd like to remind you that Heinola was in great doubt of even making the Liiga roster a year ago. Then he kept progressing and progressing. Towards the end of the season, he scored at a higher rate than Kotkaniemi, as a D. I don't know what to you signifies room for progression but to me, swift and accelerated development is just that. Is it a surprise that he's managed to keep doing this with Jets? To this extent, yes, but the signs were there. And yet they were ignored by almost everyone. Remember Heinola wasn't even on the map just last summer. Finnprospects had Heinola #10 for Finns, which is undrafted territory.

What is especially bizarre, then, is the "body of work"-argument. Did Heinola's body of work have him making the Jets? Absolutely not. "Body of work" has zero value, in fact it can be considered a negative due to slower development shown. It's tough to take people seriously if they refer to it. This part of the post isn't to you, by the way.

I did have a much better understanding of Byrams game having seen him live quite a bit last year and Heinola only on screen, that I can admit.

I never said anything about "body of work" so not sure where you got that from. All players develop differently but it's not like Byram wasnt also doing some amazing things in the WHL last year. I think we will have to wait a few years before we can really make a claim of who will be the better player. Obviously I hope its Heinola. But to say that the CHL isnt a much larger jump to the NHL than Liiga is disingenuous. Because it very obviously is.

 

[Mrb1p]

I watched him play both of these games in NY/NJ. Kid looks to have a tremendous IQ. Doesn't look phased at all playing against guys a decade older than him and bigger than him. He made some really nice plays in the O zone to keep plays alive and made it look easy.

Mid march last year, I made a huge claim.

Ville is the smartest defender Ive seen in recent memory. This includes the likes of Dahlin, Heiskanen and Makar.

 

[Erikfromfin]

Early Calder frontrunner!

 

[Artorius Horus T]

Early Calder frontrunner!

Well, considering he leads all rookies in scoring, yes

 

[voxel]

I watched him play both of these games in NY/NJ. Kid looks to have a tremendous IQ. Doesn't look phased at all playing against guys a decade older than him and bigger than him. He made some really nice plays in the O zone to keep plays alive and made it look easy.

Same. Was a fan of Morrissey on the Rockets. Similar smart effective Dman.

 

[QnebO]

He has some work to do on the defensive zone understandably, but when he is on the offensive zone.. On pace to 82 point season.

I dont think thats the right way to say it really. Of course he has some work to do, but if you say that off 18 year old, youd think he has alot to do. Actually, he basically hasnt yet make a single mistake or wrong decision this season.

Not flashy, just somehow he just knows what is the right decision and extremely calmly makes it. Like he was dad playing against boys.

I hope we dont overhype (or underhype) this one. Just let the kid play.

 

[FinPanda]

I dont think thats the right way to say it really. Of course he has some work to do, but if you say that off 18 year old, youd think he has alot to do. Actually, he basically hasnt yet make a single mistake or wrong decision this season.

Not flashy, just somehow he just knows what is the right decision and extremely calmly makes it. Like he was dad playing against boys.

I hope we dont overhype (or underhype) this one. Just let the kid play.

I didn't mean at all that he has a lot of it, thats why I said "some".

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

He got toasted by Kreider in his debut, but Kreider couldn't finish what should've been a goal. He's surely allowed a mistake or three in his debut, but he wasn't excellent. I would say his performance was more in the respectable category.

And I wouldn't start questioning his draft position at this point. This is done every draft where 1-2 guys who play a more NHL ready style of game play in the NHL early. That doesn't make them better than the players drafted before them. If Heinola is the 20th best NHL player in 10 years from the 2019 draft draft, what will it matter that he played some games in his 18 year old season? Heinola has average size and speed, and isn't known as a particularly skilled player or exceptionally strong defensive defensemen. His calling card is his hockey IQ. Maybe that carries him to a very good NHL career or maybe it doesn't. We can't say yet. Playing some NHL games early on means relatively little other than he was ready for league before others were. That could show that he's better than most thought or it might not. There are many examples of both.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

He got toasted by Kreider in his debut, but Kreider couldn't finish what should've been a goal. He's surely allowed a mistake or three in his debut, but he wasn't excellent. I would say his performance was more in the respectable category.

And I wouldn't start questioning his draft position at this point. This is done every draft where 1-2 guys who play a more NHL ready style of game play in the NHL early. That doesn't make them better than the players drafted before them. If Heinola is the 20th best NHL player in 10 years from the 2019 draft draft, what will it matter that he played some games in his 18 year old season? Heinola has average size and speed, and isn't known as a particularly skilled player or exceptionally strong defensive defensemen. His calling card is his hockey IQ. Maybe that carries him to a very good NHL career or maybe it doesn't. We can't say yet. Playing some NHL games early on means relatively little other than he was ready for league before others were. That could show that he's better than most thought or it might not. There are many examples of both.

Hughes and Kakko are the only ones I'm not willing to bet will be worse than him

 

[BKarchitect]

He got toasted by Kreider in his debut, but Kreider couldn't finish what should've been a goal. He's surely allowed a mistake or three in his debut, but he wasn't excellent. I would say his performance was more in the respectable category.

And I wouldn't start questioning his draft position at this point. This is done every draft where 1-2 guys who play a more NHL ready style of game play in the NHL early. That doesn't make them better than the players drafted before them. If Heinola is the 20th best NHL player in 10 years from the 2019 draft draft, what will it matter that he played some games in his 18 year old season? Heinola has average size and speed, and isn't known as a particularly skilled player or exceptionally strong defensive defensemen. His calling card is his hockey IQ. Maybe that carries him to a very good NHL career or maybe it doesn't. We can't say yet. Playing some NHL games early on means relatively little other than he was ready for league before others were. That could show that he's better than most thought or it might not. There are many examples of both.

I won't comment on Heinola himself (or guys like Bjornfot, etc) since they may very well be the real deal but this point needs to be sticky-ed at the beginning of every new season when people get wildly out of control because a handful of just drafted players who aren't like top 2-3 picks make the NHL for a cup of coffee (or sometimes a bit more) right after being drafted - with a very explicit assumption that this makes them better picks than other drafted near them who didn't make their NHL teams or that this early taste is a rocket ship to success.

By all means let's sing the praises of Heinola and the like but the idea that he's somehow shot above his peers drafted around him this past summer is extremely faulty. He may be a top 5 pick looking back in 5 years time or he may very well prove to be drafted in the right spot. Who's to say at this point that Heinola is a better prospect than say Lassi Thomson who is also Finnish, also a defender, drafted right near him but playing (and excelling) in Europe? How would you even make a judgement this early on?

 

[1OApick]

He got toasted by Kreider in his debut, but Kreider couldn't finish what should've been a goal. He's surely allowed a mistake or three in his debut, but he wasn't excellent. I would say his performance was more in the respectable category.

And I wouldn't start questioning his draft position at this point. This is done every draft where 1-2 guys who play a more NHL ready style of game play in the NHL early. That doesn't make them better than the players drafted before them. If Heinola is the 20th best NHL player in 10 years from the 2019 draft draft, what will it matter that he played some games in his 18 year old season? Heinola has average size and speed, and isn't known as a particularly skilled player or exceptionally strong defensive defensemen. His calling card is his hockey IQ. Maybe that carries him to a very good NHL career or maybe it doesn't. We can't say yet. Playing some NHL games early on means relatively little other than he was ready for league before others were. That could show that he's better than most thought or it might not. There are many examples of both.

Tools don't matter lot at hockey. Drafting for IQ is always the bets move. I think players can develop IQ but it is easier to get better at other aspects of game.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Tools don't matter lot at hockey. Drafting for IQ is always the bets move. I think players can develop IQ but it is easier to get better at other aspects of game.

They matter. All of these areas matter. The question is how much each area matters. It differs from player to player and position to position.

 

[Mrb1p]

Oh, great, the useless post brigade.

 

[Whileee]

He got toasted by Kreider in his debut, but Kreider couldn't finish what should've been a goal. He's surely allowed a mistake or three in his debut, but he wasn't excellent. I would say his performance was more in the respectable category.

And I wouldn't start questioning his draft position at this point. This is done every draft where 1-2 guys who play a more NHL ready style of game play in the NHL early. That doesn't make them better than the players drafted before them. If Heinola is the 20th best NHL player in 10 years from the 2019 draft draft, what will it matter that he played some games in his 18 year old season? Heinola has average size and speed, and isn't known as a particularly skilled player or exceptionally strong defensive defensemen. His calling card is his hockey IQ. Maybe that carries him to a very good NHL career or maybe it doesn't. We can't say yet. Playing some NHL games early on means relatively little other than he was ready for league before others were. That could show that he's better than most thought or it might not. There are many examples of both.

He has very good 4-way mobility and is a terrific passer. Those are tools / skills that many D lack. He's a smart player, but he's also very skilled.

 

[wetcoast]

Time to start the conversation for the calder trophy!

Nothing like overreacting to a 2 game sample eh?

Let's wait till the 10 game mark before any Calder conversation's it's really premature.

 

[Michoulicious]

I won't comment on Heinola himself (or guys like Bjornfot, etc) since they may very well be the real deal but this point needs to be sticky-ed at the beginning of every new season when people get wildly out of control because a handful of just drafted players who aren't like top 2-3 picks make the NHL for a cup of coffee (or sometimes a bit more) right after being drafted - with a very explicit assumption that this makes them better picks than other drafted near them who didn't make their NHL teams or that this early taste is a rocket ship to success.

By all means let's sing the praises of Heinola and the like but the idea that he's somehow shot above his peers drafted around him this past summer is extremely faulty. He may be a top 5 pick looking back in 5 years time or he may very well prove to be drafted in the right spot. Who's to say at this point that Heinola is a better prospect than say Lassi Thomson who is also Finnish, also a defender, drafted right near him but playing (and excelling) in Europe? How would you even make a judgement this early on?

Exactly. It is like saying Hanifin is superior to Werenski/Chabot/Provorov after he makes the team in his D+1 while the others don't.

So many factors impact when a player start playing in the NHL, and many of them have nothing to do with his play (management philosophy, coaching style, depth at the position, salary cap constraints (burning ELC), etc.).

Good for Heinola for making the team so young, it is certainly a remarkable achievement, but let's pump the breaks here. He is no Dahlin. We'll have to wait a bit before saying he's a better prospect than guys like Byram, Boldy, Seider, Turcotte, Krebs, etc.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Exactly. It is like saying Hanifin is superior to Werenski/Chabot/Provorov after he makes the team in his D+1 while the others don't.

So many factors impact when a player start playing in the NHL, and many of them have nothing to do with his play (management philosophy, coaching style, depth at the position, salary cap constraints (burning ELC), etc.).

Good for Heinola for making the team so young, it is certainly a remarkable achievement, but let's pump the breaks here. He is no Dahlin. We'll have to wait a bit before saying he's a better prospect than guys like Byram, Boldy, Seider, Turcotte, Krebs, etc.

Maybe light version of Heiskanen?

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Easy to look good when you're stapled to the GOAT, Neal "Neal Pionk" Pionk