D Samuel Girard

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I'd argue there are a crap ton of 6-7-8 capable defensemen in the AHL tied to NHL organizations. The curve is more exponential than parabolic. Connauton, Cole, Z, and Graves are all 5-6 defensemen. Barberio was a 6. At the bottom end of any NHL lineup, you can filter in plenty of players that are bottom of the lineup sorts. The top 10 defensemen in 4-5-6 leagues across the world could slot in a 6 spot in the NHL.

That's true as well.


Especially if we break outside of strictly active NHL parameters and were to include other leagues then ya it would definitely be exponential. But I think using the confines of just the "186 NHL jobs" that exist, that graph would be more parabolic where honestly probably half the NHL Dmen in the league are of that 4/5 variety.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Not because he's a better player than Makar, but because he would make the powerplay better than Makar did thus more power play points (PPP) thus more wins. You say that "Hughes has more PPPs than Makar thus Cale is the better player", I say that Hughes himself in fact made the Canucks powerplay better thus contributed to more PPPs. But alas this is NOT the intended point of the conversation, I rather not make this into a Hughes vs Makar thread because the original point of this discussion were you lot responding to me about if Makar is a #1 or not. Balth used Karlsson as an example and I used him along with Hughes - since he's very comparable - about how they individual are different than Makar. I say this respectively, but you might have an inferiority complex when it comes to Makar. Let me say that whatever I've written about Makar is what I believe, but that doesn't mean he's useless or inferior to Quinn. I am noting that he plays he game differently than Hughes or Karlsson do and have superior strengths in other categories.

It’s hilarious that on this board if someone else contrasts Hughes/Makar (which you did) and in this case says he would have taken the team to the Conference Final if he were in Makar’s place that I have the inferiority complex for disagreeing.

To be honest, I think it’s the other way around. I think you have a Hughes inferiority complex. You’ve been on his bandwagon all year and clearly wanted to insert him into this discussion.

If you’re going to say Hughes is more impactful and would’ve taken the team further, don’t cry, “inferiority complex” when a retort is given.

 

[Foppa2118]

Not because he's a better player than Makar, but because he would make the powerplay better than Makar did thus more power play points (PPP) thus more wins. You say that "Hughes has more PPPs than Makar thus Cale is the better player", I say that Hughes himself in fact made the Canucks powerplay better thus contributed to more PPPs.

But alas this is NOT the intended point of the conversation, I rather not make this into a Hughes vs Makar thread because the original point of this discussion were you lot responding to me about if Makar is a #1 or not. Balth used Karlsson as an example and I used him along with Hughes - since he's very comparable - about how they individual are different than Makar. I say this respectively, but you might have an inferiority complex when it comes to Makar. Let me say that whatever I've written about Makar is what I believe, but that doesn't mean he's useless or inferior to Quinn. I am noting that he plays the game differently than Hughes or Karlsson do and has superior strengths in other categories.

To be fair though, you've never been that big a fan of Makar right?

So when someone disagree with you that the Avs would have beaten Dallas with Hughes instead of Makar, I don't think it's because of an inferiority complex with Makar. It's because you don't think as highly about Makar as they do.

 

[henchman21]

The difference between the conference finals wasn’t Hughes/Makar... it was JGP/Compher.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

The difference between the conference finals wasn’t Hughes/Makar... it was JGP/Compher.

Yeah, I can get down with this.

 

[Foppa2118]

There's lots of things that could have made the difference, from not being mentally ready/focused, to injuries, to sub par goaltending, to the power play, but let's be honest here.

He did a lot of good things in the playoffs so I don't want to be too critical of him, but the real difference between making the WCF and not making the WCF, was Kadri making those two mental mistakes on the last two goals of the season.

 

[S E P H]

To be fair though, you've never been that big a fan of Makar right?

So when someone disagree with you that the Avs would have beaten Dallas with Hughes instead of Makar, I don't think it's because of an inferiority complex with Makar. It's because you don't think as highly about Makar as they do.

I love Makar, I want him to win the Calder. I tend not to try and stay bias which is why I find myself talking about his negatives - if we can call them those - more often than not. It was probably a hottake on my part about Hughes and Makar, but I also don't think I am entirely wrong to suggest that Hughes makes the powerplay better than Makar does and that was one of the biggest reasons why we lost.

 

[Foppa2118]

I love Makar, I want him to win the Calder. I tend not to try and stay bias which is why I find myself talking about his negatives - if we can call them those - more often than not. It was probably a hottake on my part about Hughes and Makar, but I also don't think I am entirely wrong to suggest that Hughes makes the powerplay better than Makar does and that was one of the biggest reasons why we lost.

Right, but you've always been more towards the negative end of the spectrum regarding Makar. Which is totally fine.

I only bring it up to point out that it isn't necessarily people overrating Makar or having an inferiority complex about him when there's a gap in how you and someone else view him.

Hot takes are all good. You have a point about the power play being a difference maker, but to the point I'm trying to make, I don't agree there's a meaningful difference between Makar and Hughes on the PP.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

I love Makar, I want him to win the Calder. I tend not to try and stay bias which is why I find myself talking about his negatives - if we can call them those - more often than not. It was probably a hottake on my part about Hughes and Makar, but I also don't think I am entirely wrong to suggest that Hughes makes the powerplay better than Makar does and that was one of the biggest reasons why we lost.

I actually like Hughes on the PP better than Makar, though I’m not sure what’s Hughes would look like on this Avs PP. Would he be the guy on the Canucks who’s making pin point accurate passes, sneaking in and out of shooting lanes...or would he just become part of the Avs PP and stand around a lot while passing up shots waiting for MacKinnon to get open?

 

[Foppa2118]

We're getting a bit OT on this, but since the Avs problem on the PP is overpassing, I'd say Makar being more of a shooter than Hughes might make him a better fit on the Avs power play.

 

[Foppa Frossa]

I miss the days of Mikko one-timing it top corns on the PP. Now he just falls down.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I love Makar, I want him to win the Calder. I tend not to try and stay bias which is why I find myself talking about his negatives - if we can call them those - more often than not. It was probably a hottake on my part about Hughes and Makar, but I also don't think I am entirely wrong to suggest that Hughes makes the powerplay better than Makar does and that was one of the biggest reasons why we lost.

Nah, you were pretty much spot on with the evaluation.


But any sort of criticism about Golden boy Cale around here and you'll start a which hunt on yourself. Cale can do absolutely no wrong for some around here. Hughes is certainly a better PP QB, dont really even get how one can debate that. The results just speak for themselves.

 

[Foppa2118]

Nah, you were pretty much spot on with the evaluation.


But any sort of criticism about Golden boy Cale around here and you'll start a which hunt on yourself. Cale can do absolutely no wrong for some around here. Hughes is certainly a better PP QB, dont really even get how one can debate that. The results just speak for themselves.

This golden boy myth is propagated by those looking to justify past negative comments about Makar.

Case in point, the idea that Hughes is most certainly a better PPQB, and anyone suggesting that's not necessarily true is treating Cale like a golden boy.

When the reality is Hughes was on pace for 30 power play points this year on the 4th ranked PP, and Makar was on pace for 27 on the 19th ranked PP.

 

[The Abusement Park]

We're getting a bit OT on this, but since the Avs problem on the PP is overpassing, I'd say Makar being more of a shooter than Hughes might make him a better fit on the Avs power play.

I still that a lack of movement is the Avs biggest issue. They overpass and don’t shoot because everyone is in the same spot for 1:30 and its insanely easy to defend.

 

[Moosehead1]

I miss the days of Mikko one-timing it top corns on the PP. Now he just falls down.

The moose meets Bambi LOL

 

[Foppa2118]

I still that a lack of movement is the Avs biggest issue. They overpass and don’t shoot because everyone is in the same spot for 1:30 and its insanely easy to defend.

That's part of it for sure. It's mostly their execution on their shots though IMO.

For example, MacK needs a picture perfect pass in his wheelhouse to feel comfortable taking a one timer. So he passes up a lot of shooting opportunities, to pass the puck back and forth and eventually take a lower percentage shot, or turn the puck over. Mikko has a great one timer himself, but it isn't that consistent, as we saw in the playoffs.

Plus a lot of their down low plays, and shots from the slot just get fired into the goalies chest.

So they're very good at gaining the zone and setting up the PP, but they're not that good at executing consistently on their shots for whatever reason. If they didn't have Makar/Barrie firing well timed shots on net from the point for goals/deflections/rebounds, they'd be awful.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Nah, you were pretty much spot on with the evaluation.


But any sort of criticism about Golden boy Cale around here and you'll start a which hunt on yourself. Cale can do absolutely no wrong for some around here. Hughes is certainly a better PP QB, dont really even get how one can debate that. The results just speak for themselves.

Not sure what’s wrong with pushing back on the idea that a Makar/Hughes swap doesn’t lead to the Avs to the Conference Final.

No need for me to go into the reasons, or I’ll be seen as a Hughes hater, or having an inferiority complex about Makar.

I don’t mind hearing criticism of Makar, I’ve had some for him myself. It’s interesting, it seems like for a while now Makar has become a pretty polarizing player among our fan base.

 

[tigervixxxen]

We're getting a bit OT on this, but since the Avs problem on the PP is overpassing, I'd say Makar being more of a shooter than Hughes might make him a better fit on the Avs power play.

I’ll bring it back around to topic. Makar absolutely needs to be used as a forward/shooter on the PP...and Girard needs to QB it.

The Avs need to get creative and revolutionize the PP with the talent competitive advantage they have. Girard is the best as a facilitator, keeping the puck in, passing and making plays. He is the classic PP QB. I don’t want to hear his shot isn’t good enough for it, this isn’t the previous century where the bomb on the PP creates looks, it’s all about getting the puck into the forward’s hands for a shot these days (Wysh had an article on this too). Girard creates enough offense with it anyway, he was top 31 is scoring for Ds this year too. Freeing up to use Makar all around the ice on the PP but also where he could slide back to the point causes unpredictability either.

 

[AvsCOL]

I’ll bring it back around to topic. Makar absolutely needs to be used as a forward/shooter on the PP...and Girard needs to QB it.

The Avs need to get creative and revolutionize the PP with the talent competitive advantage they have. Girard is the best as a facilitator, keeping the puck in, passing and making plays. He is the classic PP QB. I don’t want to hear his shot isn’t good enough for it, this isn’t the previous century where the bomb on the PP creates looks, it’s all about getting the puck into the forward’s hands for a shot these days (Wysh had an article on this too). Girard creates enough offense with it anyway, he was top 31 is scoring for Ds this year too. Freeing up to use Makar all around the ice on the PP but also where he could slide back to the point causes unpredictability either.

I appreciate the outside the box thinking, but I can’t see it working. Makar is going to make his money by walking the blue line and snapping pucks on net. He’s at his best when he’s high in the circles making space for himself with his skating. Makar is far from the problem on the PP if you ask me. We have two elite goal scorers on each half wall, and neither guy wants to shoot the puck. The more I watch it, the more a think it’s coaching. Rantanen and Burakovsky play the same spot on each powerplay, and both guys have the exact same frustrating tendencies. Both pass up space to push the net and maybe shoot, by pivoting back towards the outside just to dish to the D man. It’s too predictable, and neither guys gets any respect by the PKers.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I do not consider Makar the problem at all either but utilizing him in this role does not take advantage of his talents. Makar is a very unique type player especially as a defenseman. Look at the two goals he scored in the Dallas series, the 5 on 3 and the Mikko pass off the Girard rebound shot. The location at the top of the circles at either side (and he especially loves that right side on the second goal) are absolutely looks that can get replicated on the power play.

 

[PAZ]

The main problems with the PP are:

1) The system and PP coaches, it's horrendous for the talent we have. Why the hell do we have a bumper, why isn't Landy in front of the net, etc.
2) Landeskog - Love the dude, but he single-handedly kills so many plays it's ridiculous. Either a misplaced pass, a puck bobble, or just a stupid-ass play usually means its an easy out. There's very few passes that Landy gives that can be moved quickly or one-timed, and as a result it usually gives time for the defenders to reset.
3) Passing - I don't know if it's the way our PP is set up or what, but there are very few crisp passes that can made into a high percentage play or chance.
4) The bumper player - The bumper player hasn't done jack all the entire season. It was nice when we had Duchene/ROR/etc. who would go down low on the half-wall and create a seam to the bumper guy, but our PP doesn't do that anymore. Usually the bumper results in a turnover or weak percentage play because the short passes are too awkward to do anything else with
5) Rantanen - He was money on the PP when he was shooting, for whatever reason he's not as much and his passes aren't tape-to-tape either.

Girard isn't going to fix the PP because he'll just be thrown into whatever garbage PP system we're running. It was decent with Barrie because his shots got through which usually resulted in a deflection or a scramble, knew how to setup a one-time pass for both Rantanen and Mack, and he had great awareness to know where to go after a scramble.

For whatever reason, both Girard and Makar aren't able to set up those one-timers the same way Barrie did.

 

[Foppa2118]

I’ll bring it back around to topic. Makar absolutely needs to be used as a forward/shooter on the PP...and Girard needs to QB it.

The Avs need to get creative and revolutionize the PP with the talent competitive advantage they have. Girard is the best as a facilitator, keeping the puck in, passing and making plays. He is the classic PP QB. I don’t want to hear his shot isn’t good enough for it, this isn’t the previous century where the bomb on the PP creates looks, it’s all about getting the puck into the forward’s hands for a shot these days (Wysh had an article on this too). Girard creates enough offense with it anyway, he was top 31 is scoring for Ds this year too. Freeing up to use Makar all around the ice on the PP but also where he could slide back to the point causes unpredictability either.

Yeah I think we might have had this discussion before, and I don't quite share the same desire to change things up in that way. I'm ok with their setups, and using two D men would change most of their setups. It's their execution that's the problem IMO.

I agree G can run a power play. He's looked good there before in Makar's absence. If he works on his wrist shot in the off season like he said he would, I think it will be fine for the power play. It's not about having a bomb from the point, but he needs to have a heavy enough wrist shot to cause rebounds through traffic. He could make his release just a tad quicker, and being able to pick corners like Makar would help too.

Makar should shoot more, but he's getting there. He just wants to setup Nate for the one timer a lot, which is understandable if Nate would shoot the puck. I think Makar is just as good if not better than G at holding pucks in too. He's quite good at it.

That said, I'm not opposed to trying Girard and Makar on the points of the PP. It's one of those situations where what they're doing isn't working well enough, so I have no problem with trying the two D man setup, and if they can it working then by all means keep doing it until it stops working.

 

[The Abusement Park]

That's part of it for sure. It's mostly their execution on their shots though IMO.

For example, MacK needs a picture perfect pass in his wheelhouse to feel comfortable taking a one timer. So he passes up a lot of shooting opportunities, to pass the puck back and forth and eventually take a lower percentage shot, or turn the puck over. Mikko has a great one timer himself, but it isn't that consistent, as we saw in the playoffs.

Plus a lot of their down low plays, and shots from the slot just get fired into the goalies chest.

So they're very good at gaining the zone and setting up the PP, but they're not that good at executing consistently on their shots for whatever reason. If they didn't have Makar/Barrie firing well timed shots on net from the point for goals/deflections/rebounds, they'd be awful.

I agree but it's hard to execute well when 90% of the time everyone is standing in the same spot for a minute straight. Add in the fact that Mack never one times it, it becomes a really easy PP to defend.

 

[S E P H]

I agree with the notion that Girard thinks the game better on the powerplay than Makar, but even with his issues I think Cale has gotta be on the 1st unit; he brings too many weapons at the point to move him to the half-wall. Perhaps Avs should eventually go back to a two defender system because it's a matter of time before Byram takes over Girard's spot on the second unit.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I see two obvious issues with the PP. the first is the forcing of low percentage plays (mostly by Rantanen). The other is Mackinnon skating the puck around too much. I get it, that’s how Nate creates offense. But you have an advantage. You have more men on the ice than the other team. Just move the puck around and let the puck do the work. At 5v5 Mackinnon skates the puck around the offensive zone which confuses the defending team and eventually leading to a defensive lapse. On the Pp however the 4 player hold their box and all Mackinnon is doing is over complicating things with zero response from the PK’ing team.