D Samuel Girard

[Rumplesnipeskin]

I keep Zadorov over Cole any day, even if a buyout is required, and probably prefer Zads to Graves if we can trade Gravy for a decent return... If the ultimate goal is winning a cup, which I hope it is, you are more likely to do that with Zads rather than if you had Cole, or Graves, in that same lineup spot. Our prospects will make what Graves brings to the table pretty much commoditized, and then it becomes a question of who is a better third pairing d-man. In my book, it’s Zads... contract contingent

that said, I really came here to give Sammy G some love. Young stud, I think he learned a LOT in that Dallas series, and as much as it stings, the Avs are going to emerge stronger from the adversity.

 

[The Kingslayer]

I mean, Graves-Makar wouldn't be a fixed pair or anything. In key situations throughout games and in the 3rd period if we need a goal or to lock things down then go Byram-Makar. Spreading the wealth is something we could do to roll 3 pairs pretty evenly if we wanted. But obviously Byram and Girard would be ahead of Graves.

I dont wanna hear this Richard. I dont want Graves anywhere close to Makar. I want him on the other side of the bench so Cale dont get the suck on him.

 

[Brett44]

I do not agree with your hatred towards Graves, it may be remembered that this was his 1st full season in the NHL and his 1st series. If his next contract is around 2-2.5 M we have to keep him for 3 years until Byram is ready to play on 1st par with Makar.

 

[Richard88]

I dont wanna hear this Richard. I dont want Graves anywhere close to Makar. I want him on the other side of the bench so Cale dont get the suck on him.

I think you're overreacting based on 1 series where Graves was overplayed due to Johnson being out. Johnson's injury meant that our D pairs were shuffled a lot, so Graves played with quite a few D partners throughout which probably made it harder for him to play a consistent game. Terrible goaltending also made him look worse than he was. Recall that in game 5 and 6 for example he played a very good and quietly effective game.

 

[The Kingslayer]

I think you're overreacting based on 1 series where Graves was overplayed due to Johnson being out. Johnson's injury meant that our D pairs were shuffled a lot, so Graves played with quite a few D partners throughout which probably made it harder for him to play a consistent game. Terrible goaltending also made him look worse than he was. Recall that in game 5 and 6 for example he played a very good and quietly effective game.

First off I never overreact and secondly....yah.

 

[Hasbro]

He’s better than Duchene.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Girard becoming a #3 defenseman in the NHL would require his game to regress from where it's at right now.

To me G is a #2 right now. The only issue he has is that he can get abused on the cycle against bigger forwards. You want to have him with a mauler along the boards, but he is an incredible little player.

I’d consider him the #1 right now, he’s played the entire year and even more in the playoffs the most even strength minutes of the team and against top competition. The Avs might not have a classic top pair or definitive number one in this era so I understand there’s different definitions of it if your number one must PK, etc but for now Girard holds that mantle if you are naming one imo.

 

[Richard88]

I’d consider him the #1 right now, he’s played the entire year and even more in the playoffs the most even strength minutes of the team and against top competition. The Avs might not have a classic top pair or definitive number one in this era so I understand there’s different definitions of it if your number one must PK, etc but for now Girard holds that mantle if you are naming one imo.

If Girard was 6'3'' he'd get waaaaay more respect. He's our top shutdown Dman and is the only Dman in the league with over 50% zone exit possession %. Phenomenal player, and his contract will be so important to us for the next 7 years.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I’d consider him the #1 right now, he’s played the entire year and even more in the playoffs the most even strength minutes of the team and against top competition. The Avs might not have a classic top pair or definitive number one in this era so I understand there’s different definitions of it if your number one must PK, etc but for now Girard holds that mantle if you are naming one imo.

In a world where Cale Makar didn’t exist, maybe. Fortunately we have both

 

[Cousin Eddie]

It’s nice to have two top 30 defenseman on our roster.

 

[Pokecheque]

Personally I rank Makar as the team's #1 defenseman. It's all relative, but I just think a franchise #1 is a guy you can build a winner around, and he's the most talented blueliner on the roster (by a fair bit IMO) and the team's 2nd-best player. I don't think it requires a guy to be able to play a shutdown role, but you absolutely need guys like that, and if Girard is "merely" the 2nd best defender on this team, they're in good shape.

Not trying to start a debate here, I'm perfectly fine with Sammy being the #1 too, or if Byram somehow reaches his potential, then it might be him.

 

[S E P H]

I’d consider him the #1 right now, he’s played the entire year and even more in the playoffs the most even strength minutes of the team and against top competition. The Avs might not have a classic top pair or definitive number one in this era so I understand there’s different definitions of it if your number one must PK, etc but for now Girard holds that mantle if you are naming one imo.

Nah, he's most definitely not a #1 just due to physical limitations and lack of danger from the point. Him playing the most even strength minutes is more due to the injuries and Bednar trusting him than anybody else. Now with that said, he's fantastic even with the physical limitations and could possess some of the best transition skills of any defender in the league. He's more a #3 on the cusp of a #2 for me and that's fine because I don't think Avs truly have a #1 defender, we can win the Cup by a committee.

- Makar has #1 offence but his overall game probably won't ever be a #1, which makes him a #2.
- Girard will be #2 with some physical and offensive moments of a #3, which makes him an elite #3.
- Byram like Makar has the offence potential of first-pairing, but the defensive skills of a #4/5, making him a #2/3.
- Timmins has the steadiness of a mid-pairing defender, but the hockey IQ of a #2, which makes him a high-end mid-pairing D.
- Helleson will have the offensive skills of a bottom 3, but has the passing skills and defensive skill making him a #4.

Girard - Makar
Byram - Timmins*
Graves - Helleson

That's a solid enough defensive core even with Timmins unknown ability of health, the problem is that we have to wait on a lot of them reaching to a passable level in the NHL.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

If Girard was 6'3'' he'd get waaaaay more respect. He's our top shutdown Dman and is the only Dman in the league with over 50% zone exit possession %. Phenomenal player, and his contract will be so important to us for the next 7 years.

If G was 6'3 he probably wins a Norris trophy before he's even 25.



The one thing holding him back is the size. But consider how good he is defensively even as a midget... Now make him a big dude with the same skating ability and IQ.


Ya, he's a Norris trophy winner.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Nah, he's most definitely not a #1 just due to physical limitations and lack of danger from the point. Him playing the most even strength minutes is more due to the injuries and Bednar trusting him than anybody else. Now with that said, he's fantastic even with the physical limitations and could possess some of the best transition skills of any defender in the league. He's more a #3 on the cusp of a #2 for me and that's fine because I don't think Avs truly have a #1 defender, we can win the Cup by a committee.

- Makar has #1 offence but his overall game probably won't ever be a #1, which makes him a #2.
- Girard will be #2 with some physical and offensive moments of a #3, which makes him an elite #3.
- Byram like Makar has the offence potential of first-pairing, but the defensive skills of a #4/5, making him a #2/3.
- Timmins has the steadiness of a mid-pairing defender, but the hockey IQ of a #2, which makes him a high-end mid-pairing D.
- Helleson will have the offensive skills of a bottom 3, but has the passing skills and defensive skill making him a #4.

Girard - Makar
Byram - Timmins*
Graves - Helleson

That's a solid enough defensive core even with Timmins unknown ability of health, the problem is that we have to wait on a lot of them reaching to a passable level in the NHL.

This is a fairly pessimistic view of Girard, Makar, and Byram.

You have 30 defenceman ahead of Makar and 60+ ahead of Girard?

 

[AvsCOL]

Makar was playing like a #1 D all playoffs, how would he only project as a #2?

His defensive game was incredible during the playoffs.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Nah, he's most definitely not a #1 just due to physical limitations and lack of danger from the point. Him playing the most even strength minutes is more due to the injuries and Bednar trusting him than anybody else. Now with that said, he's fantastic even with the physical limitations and could possess some of the best transition skills of any defender in the league. He's more a #3 on the cusp of a #2 for me and that's fine because I don't think Avs truly have a #1 defender, we can win the Cup by a committee.

- Makar has #1 offence but his overall game probably won't ever be a #1, which makes him a #2.
- Girard will be #2 with some physical and offensive moments of a #3, which makes him an elite #3.
- Byram like Makar has the offence potential of first-pairing, but the defensive skills of a #4/5, making him a #2/3.
- Timmins has the steadiness of a mid-pairing defender, but the hockey IQ of a #2, which makes him a high-end mid-pairing D.
- Helleson will have the offensive skills of a bottom 3, but has the passing skills and defensive skill making him a #4.

Girard - Makar
Byram - Timmins*
Graves - Helleson

That's a solid enough defensive core even with Timmins unknown ability of health, the problem is that we have to wait on a lot of them reaching to a passable level in the NHL.

She said he’s our #1, not “a” #1.
And she’s right. It’s not subjective either. Sam Girard was Colorado’s #1 defenseman this year. Makar might be better, but Sammy G played the #1 role this year.

 

[henchman21]

This is a fairly pessimistic view of Girard, Makar, and Byram.

You have 30 defenceman ahead of Makar and 60+ ahead of Girard?

A lot of people don't subscribe to there being 31 #1D, 31 #2D, etc.

I'd say Makar isn't a #1 right now, but he's very close... likely gets there next season.

 

[S E P H]

This is a fairly pessimistic view of Girard, Makar, and Byram.

You have 30 defenceman ahead of Makar and 60+ ahead of Girard?

Yes, because I always evaluate on a cautious side and you might not know this because you're a rookie on this site, but posters in the past had prospects like Bigras and Meloche in their top 4. LOL, I try to prevent that from happening.

I don't understand the last part of your post.

Makar was playing like a #1 D all playoffs, how would he only project as a #2?

His defensive game was incredible during the playoffs.

Because he truly doesn't have the defensive attributes to be a #1, he doesn't play defence as good as Keith did in his prime. Again I said a lot of this doesn't matter because Avs can win with a committee instead of having a Pronger or Doughty in their line up. For the record I doubt that Hughes will ever be a #1 either even though he rushes the puck and contribute offensively as a #1. The defencemen who have the best chances of becoming #1 are Dahlin and Heiskanen even if both will never match either Hughes or Makar in terms of offensive output. There's a lot of other aspects contributing to defence than just getting on the scoresheet.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Yes, because I always evaluate on a cautious side and you might not know this because you're a rookie on this site, but posters in the past had prospects like Bigras and Meloche in their top 4. LOL, I try to prevent that from happening.

I don't understand the last part of your post.

Because he truly doesn't have the defensive attributes to be a #1, he doesn't play defence as good as Keith did in his prime. Again I said a lot of this doesn't matter because Avs can win with a committee instead of having a Pronger or Doughty in their line up. For the record I doubt that Hughes will ever be a #1 either even though he rushes the puck and contribute offensively as a #1. The defencemen who have the best chances of becoming #1 are Dahlin and Heiskanen even if both will never match either Hughes or Makar in terms of offensive output. There's a lot of other aspects contributing to defence than just getting on the scoresheet.

I think you’re just setting your standards for a #1 way too high if you think a Makar level offensive player needs to have prime Keith level defence to be a #1.

If Makar plays defence like he did in the playoffs moving forward he’s a slam dunk #1. I wouldn’t underrate the value of a defenceman nearly scoring at a PPG pace in his first season and in the playoffs. That kind of production to go along with his overall game is extremely rare.

Girard is a #1 as well to me, on the low end.

To me a #1 defenceman is a top-31 defenceman in the NHL since that’s how many teams there are in the league.

#2 = Top 62
#3 = Top 93

And so on and so forth.

I’d actually rate Heleson a little lower than you have him and maybe Timmins as well. I’m higher on Byram, Girard, and Makar though.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Ya I'm Honestly not even convinced we have more than ~10 legit #1D in the league right now and I dont think more than 30 guys total who are actually #2s or above.


For me, true #1D in the league as of today would include, in no order:


Victor Hedman
Seth Jones
Roman Josi
Alex Pietrangelo
Miro Heiskanen
John Carlson
Jacob Slavin
Shea Theodore


That's honestly it for me, right now. A lot of other guys are really, really close to where I wouldn't argue with someone including them as being a #1. I strongly believe Erik Karlsson will be back on this list next year but injuries are enough to stop me from including him at the moment.


Morgan Rielly
Colton Parayko
Quinn Hughes
Charlie McAvoy
Cale Makar
Drew Doughty
Ivan Provorov
Mark Giordano
Ryan Suter



These are all guys that are high, high end Dmen but have a couple areas of the game that fall short for me to call them true #1s. For some of those guys, they're very likely to climb up into that #1 group as soon as next year, and on the flip side some of the older guys are headed in the other direction.


But ya, I have pretty strict guidelines for my definition of a #1D.

 

[Pokecheque]

A lot of people don't subscribe to there being 31 #1D, 31 #2D, etc.

That right there is an undeniable fact. I mean, no one here legitimately thought that when the Avs were rolling out top pairings like Quincey-Hannan, Skrastins-Clark, and Hejda-O'Byrne that they had anything remotely resembling a #1 or even a #2 d-man.

 

[S E P H]

Ya I'm Honestly not even convinced we have more than ~10 legit #1D in the league right now and I dont think more than 30 guys total who are actually #2s or above.


For me, true #1D in the league as of today would include, in no order:


Victor Hedman
Seth Jones
Roman Josi
Alex Pietrangelo
Miro Heiskanen
John Carlson
Jacob Slavin
Shea Theodore


That's honestly it for me, right now. A lot of other guys are really, really close to where I wouldn't argue with someone including them as being a #1. I strongly believe Erik Karlsson will be back on this list next year but injuries are enough to stop me from including him at the moment.


Morgan Rielly
Colton Parayko
Quinn Hughes
Charlie McAvoy
Cale Makar
Drew Doughty
Ivan Provorov
Mark Giordano
Ryan Suter



These are all guys that are high, high end Dmen but have a couple areas of the game that fall short for me to call them true #1s. For some of those guys, they're very likely to climb up into that #1 group as soon as next year, and on the flip side some of the older guys are headed in the other direction.


But ya, I have pretty strict guidelines for my definition of a #1D.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. I don't necessarily agree with your list, but I agree with majority of it and I would say is that we have a much more influx of #2's overall in the league than having thirty-one #1's or even fifteen to twenty of them.

 

[Balthazar]

- Makar has #1 offence but his overall game probably won't ever be a #1, which makes him a #2.

Strongly disagree. Erik Karlsson was easily considered #1 defenseman and was worse than Makar defensively and less physical.

Makar's defensive game improved quite a bit already. He even played PK in the playoffs. He's going to be a true #1, the full package.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I’m a 31-31-31 guy.

I rank where players fall into an NHL lineup relative to how many of those lineup places are on the NHL. Some teams have 2 #1D. Some have 0. In total I count 31.

I subcategorize those with terms like Elite, high end, average, and lower end. The Hedman’s, Jones’, Josi’s etc are all elite #1 defenseman and that’s how I separate them but to me there are 31 jobs in the NHL where a player plays #1 minutes and therefore there are 31 people capable of filling it. Some much better than others but they still exist.

To me the amount of teams alter how many job positions there are. When expansion happened we added 23 additional every day regular NHL players. This means more people are capable of playing in the league now because more jobs are created. The quality of the league has been diluted because of this but that doesn’t mean that the 23 worst players in the NHL shouldn’t be considered NHL’ers because we’re stuck in our old ways.

It’s math. If you use the term #1D it’s relative to an NHL lineup which is among 31 teams. If you want to use terms like “ideal #1D” or a #1D on a “cup contender” that makes sense. But if you simply use a number how can you not use it relative to the league?

If a company has 10 entry level sales reps and 10 senior sales reps, the worst senior sales rep may be way closer to the best entry level rep in ability and success, but he’s still considered a Senior Sales Rep until he loses that title to somebody better.

If you’re not a 31-31-31 person, please do us all a favor and use terminology instead of numbers.

 

[Murzu]

Strongly disagree. Erik Karlsson was easily considered #1 defenseman and was worse than Makar defensively and less physical.

Makar's defensive game improved quite a bit already. He even played PK in the playoffs. He's going to be a true #1, the full package.

I hope he won't have to play PK again. We should have other options for PK duties. He played PK in the playoffs because he had to.

Regaring Girard.. Samuel Girard has had occasional flashes on being a true top pairing defenseman for two seasons now. Most of the time those have lasted a couple of games. He also has even had very long stretches of #2-3D level play.

Last couple of games in the playoffs.. wow. The guy really really impressed me even though I've been a fan of his from the very beginning. He just toyed with people in. every. zone. If he keeps that up I have no doubt he is #1D. And then we have two of those as Makar is very very close to that level if he ain't one already yet.

Keep this up and we can make an argument that he has one of the best contracts in the league.