CXLI - UPDATE 1/27 - Coyotes working on deal to play at 5,000-seat arena at ASU

[OG6ix]

8-10b? up from 3b a year? Why in the world would they deserve that kind of an increase from ESPN/TNT?

I'm not sure the ratings haven't been great to warrant that price but I'm guess they will get something in that ballpark from these companies and potentially a third or fourth partner? https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/22/nba...hts-increase-and-75-billion-is-the-price.html

 

[aqib]

I'm not sure the ratings haven't been great to warrant that price but I'm guess they will get something in that ballpark from these companies and potentially a third or fourth partner? https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/22/nba...hts-increase-and-75-billion-is-the-price.html

Advertisers view live sports as "DVD Proof" so its more valuable advertising space even if the ratings aren't so high.

 

[OG6ix]

Advertisers view live sports as "DVD Proof" so its more valuable advertising space even if the ratings aren't so high.

I understand that but the NBA has lost ground with television ratings since the last contract so why does it justify such a large payday? This is close to a NFL level payday.

 

[powerstuck]

Yeah the watering down argument made sense years ago but isn't a big thing now. A few years ago there weren't enough quarterbacks to go around in the NFL, that's not really an issue anymore. In the 90s there were hardly any NBA teams with more than one super star now you have a few super teams. The NHL has a lot more talent pipelines now than in the past.

You can't really use other countries as an example. Out of the 50 most valuable sports franchises in the world (according to Forbes who I don't really trust but its all we've got) 41 of them are North American teams. The other 9 are European soccer teams, yes European soccer has the relegation and promotion system but there you also have more than one top flight league. You have Serie A, Premier League, La Liga, Ligue 1, and Bundesliga. Its not like there another hockey league whose best teams are on par with the NHL same with NBA, MLB, and NFL. So North American leagues are just different.

The big difference is in Europe you can buy a 3rd tier team for a few millions (stadium included) and invest and make them go up to Premier League even winning. But you also have some rich Arab Oil guy buy Paris Saint-Germain for over 1 billion Euros and massively invest in the team. It's almost like some free trade.

NHL and other North American leagues aren't structured like that. The difference between the highest and lowest valued team in any of the big 4 NA leagues isn't that big, sure it is a lot of money, but it's different paying 400M for least worthy team and 1.b billion for the most worthy team.

Heck, the single most expensive transfert (Neymar for 198 british pounds) is worth more than half of a (whole) NHL teams (about 270M USD).

 

[GhostofTommyBolin]

It's pretty much a sure thing in my opinion. I get people are clinging on for hope, I'll admit I've been clinging on to the Nords coming back for a decade.

But this is basically the scenario we all imagined 10-15 years ago.

In the Atlanta situation you could at least imagine the league refusing relocation and demanding the thrashers contract with zero compensation.

In that case you'd have a shot in hell at getting a small bit of time to get a new arena set up.

But in this situation it's not even close. If Tempe wanted an arena you think they'd be so radically close to losing AM support?

The goal post moving is absurd we all know they have 3 months tops to make a deal.

Personally I wouldn't be shocked if they admitted to relocation Monday morning, hoping the superbowl diverts unwanted attention away from the Arizona fanbase. If they wait much longer the gossip etc is gonna go overboard.

I can't see this playing out much longer, it just doesn't make any sense. The ASU story is great as clickbait, it's a sensationalist idea that gets the sports talk going due to its novelty, but once the beer goggles wear the mess is obvious.

Gary throwing shade at the Arena owners in Arizona seemed like he was loading the bases so the "they didn't leave, they were forced out" narrative is strongest.

When you look at the events of the last two weeks, all I see is theatre. Put up the good show, prove a half hearted desperate attempt to save the team was tried, and then announce the relocation.

It's far far too gone at this point, you got a week tops before it's just an accepted fact the team is moving.

It ain't happening, man. Keep hoping, though!

 

[aqib]

The big difference is in Europe you can buy a 3rd tier team for a few millions (stadium included) and invest and make them go up to Premier League even winning. But you also have some rich Arab Oil guy buy Paris Saint-Germain for over 1 billion Euros and massively invest in the team. It's almost like some free trade.

NHL and other North American leagues aren't structured like that. The difference between the highest and lowest valued team in any of the big 4 NA leagues isn't that big, sure it is a lot of money, but it's different paying 400M for least worthy team and 1.b billion for the most worthy team.

Heck, the single most expensive transfert (Neymar for 198 british pounds) is worth more than half of a (whole) NHL teams (about 270M USD).

That's all true. My point still stands that you can't compare the foreign leagues with the North American leagues because you have multiple leagues at the same level. Guys like Neymar can cross from the Premier League to La Liga the same way a baseball player could go from the American League to the National League. So using the number of teams in those leagues as some sort of benchmark for why North American sports leagues can't go beyond 32 teams doesn't hold water. If you take the 5 big soccer leagues in Europe (Premier League, La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, and Ligue 1) they have 98 teams between them.

 

[aqib]

I understand that but the NBA has lost ground with television ratings since the last contract so why does it justify such a large payday? This is close to a NFL level payday.

They had a big drop coming out of the pandemic they seem to be on the way back. We'll see what happens the rest of the season

 

[OG6ix]

They had a big drop coming out of the pandemic they seem to be on the way back. We'll see what happens the rest of the season

The issue with the NBA is they live and die by "star power" and their stars are aging. There is only so much you can do to "create" stars - they tried last year with guys like Trae Young but it hasn't picked up to the levels of Lebron James and Steph Curry/KD.

 

[aqib]

The issue with the NBA is they live and die by "star power" and their stars are aging. There is only so much you can do to "create" stars - they tried last year with guys like Trae Young but it hasn't picked up to the levels of Lebron James and Steph Curry/KD.

That's cyclical though. Wait a couple of years when LeBron Jr gets drafted...

 

[Pandemonia]

Leaving the NBA behind for a while and getting back to the continuing saga of the Coyotes....

There's a meeting of the Tempe City Council tonight. I've seen conflicting reports about what will be discussed and how it will impact the AM's project, ranging from a huge 200 page agenda (tl;dr) to a special vote on the hockey arena.

Is there anyone (I'm batting my eyes at you, Legend) who actually know what will transpire tonight and how it will impact ongoing developments?

 

[Yukon Joe]

Leaving the NBA behind for a while and getting back to the continuing saga of the Coyotes....

There's a meeting of the Tempe City Council tonight. I've seen conflicting reports about what will be discussed and how it will impact the AM's project, ranging from a huge 200 page agenda (tl;dr) to a special vote on the hockey arena.

Is there anyone (I'm batting my eyes at you, Legend) who actually know what will transpire tonight and how it will impact ongoing developments?

You can find the agenda for both the open meeting, and the closed "executive session", here.

Public Meeting Schedules, Agendas, and Minutes | City of Tempe, AZ

While I wouldn't expect them to advertise in big, bold letters anything to do with the Coyotes, nothing in either document for Feb 10 even suggests it has to do with the Coyotes new arena. I got a little bit excited about the mentions of "development of the Hayden Flour Mill" as part of the address is similar (Rio Salado Parkway), but was able to confirm that the proposed arena is several blocks west of the flour mill location.

 

[JimAnchower]

Leaving the NBA behind for a while and getting back to the continuing saga of the Coyotes....

There's a meeting of the Tempe City Council tonight. I've seen conflicting reports about what will be discussed and how it will impact the AM's project, ranging from a huge 200 page agenda (tl;dr) to a special vote on the hockey arena.

Is there anyone (I'm batting my eyes at you, Legend) who actually know what will transpire tonight and how it will impact ongoing developments?

Arizona Board of Regents is discussing the changes to the arena that the Coyotes are proposing tonight. Is that what you're thinking about? If so, Tempe isn't a part of that discussion.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Arizona Board of Regents is discussing the changes to the arena that the Coyotes are proposing tonight. Is that what you're thinking about? If so, Tempe isn't a part of that discussion.

I can't speak for @Pandemonia but they are separate meetings. The ASU BOR needs to approve changes to their under-development arena, but City of Tempe needs to approve the redevelopment plan for the new final arena for the Coyotes. Tempe City Council does have a meeting tonight as well.

 

[Pandemonia]

Arizona Board of Regents is discussing the changes to the arena that the Coyotes are proposing tonight. Is that what you're thinking about? If so, Tempe isn't a part of that discussion.

Ah, hah! Thanks for steering me in the right direction, Jim.

 

[Llama19]

You can find the agenda for both the open meeting, and the closed "executive session", here.

Public Meeting Schedules, Agendas, and Minutes | City of Tempe, AZ

While I wouldn't expect them to advertise in big, bold letters anything to do with the Coyotes, nothing in either document for Feb 10 even suggests it has to do with the Coyotes new arena. I got a little bit excited about the mentions of "development of the Hayden Flour Mill" as part of the address is similar (Rio Salado Parkway), but was able to confirm that the proposed arena is several blocks west of the flour mill location.

If you see an item like this listed...City-owned Property at Priest Drive and Rio Salado Parkway...then it is related to Meruelo's sports arena complex...

 

[Dirty Old Man]

That's all true. My point still stands that you can't compare the foreign leagues with the North American leagues because you have multiple leagues at the same level. Guys like Neymar can cross from the Premier League to La Liga the same way a baseball player could go from the American League to the National League. So using the number of teams in those leagues as some sort of benchmark for why North American sports leagues can't go beyond 32 teams doesn't hold water. If you take the 5 big soccer leagues in Europe (Premier League, La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, and Ligue 1) they have 98 teams between them.

Yes, but they are separate leagues. I.e. not playing for the same championship. Neymar can go to La Liga, but he won't be playing against teams in the Premier League. If you're talking about the UEFA Champions League, that's different - yes, that's all 56 UEFA members leagues in theory playing for one trophy.

But we're talking about the NHL playing for the Stanley Cup (like playing for the EPL trophy)....So until you agree to a 2-tier system or multiple leagues, you won't have more than 32 teams playing for the Stanley Cup, assuming that's still to be the pinnacle of NA hockey.

 

[Yukon Joe]

If you see an item like this listed...City-owned Property at Priest Drive and Rio Salado Parkway...then it is related to Meruelo's sports arena complex...

Yup - I went and looked up the exact address.

Here's the area if anyone is interested. It does like ripe for redevelopment.

Google Maps

If you zoom out you can see why the airport has a concern - the location has to be, what, 2km away and directly in the path of one of the runways.

 

[Llama19]

Yup - I went and looked up the exact address.

Here's the area if anyone is interested. It does like ripe for redevelopment.

Google Maps

If you zoom out you can see why the airport has a concern - the location has to be, what, 2km away and directly in the path of one of the runways.

It is ripe...just in a different way...

 

[TheLegend]

You can find the agenda for both the open meeting, and the closed "executive session", here.

Public Meeting Schedules, Agendas, and Minutes | City of Tempe, AZ

While I wouldn't expect them to advertise in big, bold letters anything to do with the Coyotes, nothing in either document for Feb 10 even suggests it has to do with the Coyotes new arena. I got a little bit excited about the mentions of "development of the Hayden Flour Mill" as part of the address is similar (Rio Salado Parkway), but was able to confirm that the proposed arena is several blocks west of the flour mill location.

Also looked at the city council agenda... there isn't anything there yet on Meruelo's proposal.

Word was there won't be any vote until after the election March 8th. Which is a vote by mail election. The ballots went out to all Tempe registered residents early this week. New council members won't take office until July.

 

[TheLegend]

Yup - I went and looked up the exact address.

Here's the area if anyone is interested. It does like ripe for redevelopment.

Google Maps

If you zoom out you can see why the airport has a concern - the location has to be, what, 2km away and directly in the path of one of the runways.

Yep, and you can see all the existing housing and development already along that path. Some of the buildings are as tall or even taller than the ones proposed by Meruelo. Airport didn't have any concerns about them.

 

[TheLegend]

It is ripe...just in a different way...

Kinda like some of the hot takes in this thread.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Also looked at the city council agenda... there isn't anything there yet on Meruelo's proposal.

Word was there won't be any vote until after the election March 8th. Which is a vote by mail election. The ballots went out to all Tempe registered residents early this week. New council members won't take office until July.

While I can see why Tempe would want that sort of timeline, it's rough for the Coyotes and Meruelo - they'd have to commit to the ASU arena alterations (previously reported at $15-$20 mil) with zero guarantee the Tempe redevelopment is approved.

 

[aqib]

So just wondering, with all the costs of upgrading the ASU arena and the extra losses he would incur for that time, wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy Gila River from Glendale for the $120 millionish they still owe on it and then sell it to whoever when the new arena is built. Like even if he sold it for $1 he would be better off. Or he could demolish it and sell the land to a developer so he eliminates the competition and recoups some money.

 

[OG6ix]

So just wondering, with all the costs of upgrading the ASU arena and the extra losses he would incur for that time, wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy Gila River from Glendale for the $120 millionish they still owe on it and then sell it to whoever when the new arena is built. Like even if he sold it for $1 he would be better off. Or he could demolish it and sell the land to a developer so he eliminates the competition and recoups some money.

Who would want to buy that white elephant after a new arena in Tempe would put the final nail in its coffin?

 

[aqib]

Who would want to buy that white elephant after a new arena in Tempe would put the final nail in its coffin?

Well if he knocks it down the land under it would be worth something. Or it could be sold for some type of retrofit like the Memphis Pyramid.