CXLI - UPDATE 1/27 - Coyotes working on deal to play at 5,000-seat arena at ASU

[TheLegend]

What is different between this article and all the others bashing the situation? I mean Tempe can still do their due dilligence on Muerelo if they feel uncomfortable but I doubt the media impacts the decision all that much. The Airport Authority, Glendale, and other politicians likely have far more impact swaying the decision than the Media does.

Deadspin is like an editorial board comprised of posters from the main board.

Hot take city it's not.

 

[Llama19]

You can watch the Arizona Board of Regents meeting -- LIVE -- here:

www.azregents.edu/meetings/abor-live

According to the agenda...Item #3 Capital Development Plan and License Agreement Approval, (ASU)...is scheduled for 1:50 p.m local time...

 

[aqib]

....but...

NBA has had 30 teams since 2004 with no plans to expand. 18 years.
NFL has had 32 teams since 2002 with no plans to expand. 20 years.
MLB has had 30 teams since 1998 with no plans to expand. 24 years.

So....it's likely to be at least a quarter of a century before the NHL breaks 32.

In the last 45 years NFL has added 4 teams, MLB has added 6, the NBA has added 9, the NHL has added 14. So using the other leagues as an indicator doesn't make sense.

 

[aqib]

NBA expansion price is going to be huge - I wonder how much are people willing to pay for the NBA. Their stars are starting to get long in the tooth and their "New" stars are not really picking up steam with casuals.

I would guess about $1.5 billion per team. Vegas and Seattle would be the top 2. The only caveat is both New Orleans and Memphis have lease agreements coming up. New Orleans in 2024 and Memphis is up in 2029 but they have out clauses available now and they become easier each year. Once 2027 rolls around it will be pretty easy to void the last 2 years of the lease. So its only a question of do they wait for those teams to get new deals or expand now and let those teams go to smaller markets (Louisville or back to Vancouver)

 

[Dirty Old Man]

In the last 45 years NFL has added 4 teams, MLB has added 6, the NBA has added 9, the NHL has added 14. So using the other leagues as an indicator doesn't make sense.

But you're also up against the power of 2 boundary. 32 is just too good of a number to exceed for so many reasons. People here, the same ones who advocate for relocation, also largely already bemoan the "watering down of the product", yes?

Anyone, name a professional sports league in any team sport anywhere in the world that:
1) has more than 32 teams
2) does not have a system of promotion/relegation
3) average live attendance in the thousands

I'm willing to learn, but couldn't come up with one.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Anyone, name a professional sports league in any team sport anywhere in the world that:
1) has more than 32 teams
2) does not have a system of promotion/relegation
3) average live attendance in the thousands

I'm willing to learn, but couldn't come up with one.

There isn't one that I'm aware of.

But that's because nowhere else in the world does sports the way we do it in North America. Trying to think of the biggest sports leagues in the world: EPL 20 teams, KHL 24 teams, Japanese Baseball 20 teams, Indian Premiere League (cricket) 8 teams... yet north America has 4 leagues with 30+.

So pointing out that nobody in the rest of the world has done it doesn't mean much.

 

[Pandemonia]

But you're also up against the power of 2 boundary. 32 is just too good of a number to exceed for so many reasons. People here, the same ones who advocate for relocation, also largely already bemoan the "watering down of the product", yes?

Anyone, name a professional sports league in any team sport anywhere in the world that:
1) has more than 32 teams
2) does not have a system of promotion/relegation
3) average live attendance in the thousands

I'm willing to learn, but couldn't come up with one.

It's a shame that the NHL can't manage to implement a system of promotion and relegation.

Not only does it make the latter part of the season more interesting, but it certainly addresses all the cynical tanking comments.

 

[MNNumbers]

It's a shame that the NHL can't manage to implement a system of promotion and relegation.

Not only does it make the latter part of the season more interesting, but it certainly addresses all the cynical tanking comments.

It does, but look at the situation in EPL, for example, where the relegated teams face a future with far less TV money coming in. I can't imagine trying to establish a CBA under such circumstances.....

Some issues:
Tier 2 teams have much less TV money
Tier 2 teams will be thought of locally as "minor league"
Tier 2 teams will therefore have less money to spend

End game of all of that is an EPL with about 6 or 7 strong teams, maybe one other who can be good for a year or 2, and the rest fighting for scraps. This is not a situation that lends itself well to North American fan bases.

Then, with all of that going on....
How do you count HRR?
How do you decide the salary floor and cap for Tier 2?
etc....

 

[gstommylee]

It's a shame that the NHL can't manage to implement a system of promotion and relegation.

Not only does it make the latter part of the season more interesting, but it certainly addresses all the cynical tanking comments.

Pro/rel will never work in NA never mind for a hockey league and no owner would ever agree to it. And where are the teams suppose to place their AHL/prospects in?

 

[Pandemonia]

It does, but look at the situation in EPL, for example, where the relegated teams face a future with far less TV money coming in. I can't imagine trying to establish a CBA under such circumstances.....

Some issues:
Tier 2 teams have much less TV money
Tier 2 teams will be thought of locally as "minor league"
Tier 2 teams will therefore have less money to spend

End game of all of that is an EPL with about 6 or 7 strong teams, maybe one other who can be good for a year or 2, and the rest fighting for scraps. This is not a situation that lends itself well to North American fan bases.

Then, with all of that going on....
How do you count HRR?
How do you decide the salary floor and cap for Tier 2?
etc....

Yep, all good points. That's why I said it was shame that the NHL could never manage it.

 

[MNNumbers]

Yep, all good points. That's why I said it was shame that the NHL could never manage it.

Not really an Arizona topic, but there is something to be said for teams being forced to have competitive incentive all the way to the end of the season. I'm not sure how to do it. And, I am actually not sure anyone knows how to do it right. But, it is a great idea.

 

[Yukon Joe]

It does, but look at the situation in EPL, for example, where the relegated teams face a future with far less TV money coming in. I can't imagine trying to establish a CBA under such circumstances.....

<snip>

The EPL has a CBA, but it looks and works very, very differently.

There's no salary cap (or salary floor). There's no revenue sharing. TV money is NOT shared equally (it's based on how often a team is on tv plus their end-of-year standings). There's no draft. Players can and are bought and sold between teams regularly.

And remember English (and other countries) don't just have 2 soccer leagues. There's at least 10 levels worth of leagues in England. I believe theoretically a level 10 team could, if it consistently won games, move all the way up to level 1 the EPL, but in the real world the finances make it impossible.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

There isn't one that I'm aware of.

But that's because nowhere else in the world does sports the way we do it in North America. Trying to think of the biggest sports leagues in the world: EPL 20 teams, KHL 24 teams, Japanese Baseball 20 teams, Indian Premiere League (cricket) 8 teams... yet north America has 4 leagues with 30+.

So pointing out that nobody in the rest of the world has done it doesn't mean much.

Meh, not to you, anyway. I'm suggesting we in North America are the first to reach that limit.

 

[GhostofTommyBolin]

Hot take coming in from Deadspin:
It sure looks like the Arizona Coyotes are going to play in a warehouse for the next few years

There’s little that can surprise anyone when it comes to the Arizona Coyotes anymore. They’re being kicked out of their building after this season. They were nearly kicked out in the middle of it. It’s apparently an abhorrent place to work. The owner might not have any actual money. And the team has sucked pond scum for just about a decade now.

So when the news broke last week that the Yotes are basically asking their college buddies if they can crash on the couch while they “just figure some shit out,” it barely caused an eyebrow to twitch. But as the details came out, you wonder how a league could go along with such a thing, as it will make them look even more Mickey Mouse than they already do.
​

I'm not sure anyone here has even reached such a level lol. But you wonder how stories like this will affect public opinion. The tone is inflammatory obviously and there is nothing new here but still not good PR for Meruelo and Co.

The current iteration of Deadspin is hot garbage. Anyone worth reading from that site walked out and formed The Defector, which is actually really good.

 

[MNNumbers]

The EPL has a CBA, but it looks and works very, very differently.

There's no salary cap (or salary floor). There's no revenue sharing. TV money is NOT shared equally (it's based on how often a team is on tv plus their end-of-year standings). There's no draft. Players can and are bought and sold between teams regularly.

And remember English (and other countries) don't just have 2 soccer leagues. There's at least 10 levels worth of leagues in England. I believe theoretically a level 10 team could, if it consistently won games, move all the way up to level 1 the EPL, but in the real world the finances make it impossible.

True. Instead the entire UEFA structure has "Financial Fair Play" rules to govern how much can be spent on player transfers, etc. Euro labor law is different from NoAmer also. And, you are correct about the promotion. Famous case - Leicester City in 2015, who, 2 years prior, nearly were relegated to the 3rd tier, but survived, then were promoted to the top tier, and then won the league.

And, the fanbase is very loyal to the local teams. England is small compared to the US, and everyone is emotionally engaged in their local club no matter level it is on.

These are things that would never happen here on the west side of the pond.

 

[PCSPounder]

The EPL has a CBA, but it looks and works very, very differently.

There's no salary cap (or salary floor). There's no revenue sharing. TV money is NOT shared equally (it's based on how often a team is on tv plus their end-of-year standings). There's no draft. Players can and are bought and sold between teams regularly.

And remember English (and other countries) don't just have 2 soccer leagues. There's at least 10 levels worth of leagues in England. I believe theoretically a level 10 team could, if it consistently won games, move all the way up to level 1 the EPL, but in the real world the finances make it impossible.

There are enough American owners to implement a salary cap in EPL. Thing is (and there was at least one article written on the subject), if they do that, Italy goes on a spending spree and wastes the EPL. Germany would likely join in.

Oh, right, then there was the European Super League proposal. Remember when the Man U game was halted because their fans stormed the field? Remember how the proposal worked out?

Because I know of one smaller league (NWSL) that probably deserves this treatment right now. And who's to say that we can't make that spread stateside?

Generally, Tommy is right about NA sports; the likelihood that owners would go pro/rel by themselves is nil, probably even negative. But it's time for the revolution, no?

 

[GhostofTommyBolin]

Not really an Arizona topic, but there is something to be said for teams being forced to have competitive incentive all the way to the end of the season. I'm not sure how to do it. And, I am actually not sure anyone knows how to do it right. But, it is a great idea.

I have a plan that would work, but because it would work, they won't do it. It would work for the NBA, too.

 

[TheLegend]

True. Instead the entire UEFA structure has "Financial Fair Play" rules to govern how much can be spent on player transfers, etc. Euro labor law is different from NoAmer also. And, you are correct about the promotion. Famous case - Leicester City in 2015, who, 2 years prior, nearly were relegated to the 3rd tier, but survived, then were promoted to the top tier, and then won the league.

And, the fanbase is very loyal to the local teams. England is small compared to the US, and everyone is emotionally engaged in their local club no matter level it is on.

These are things that would never happen here on the west side of the pond.

Shane Doan had the concept of having teams eliminated from the playoffs play for the draft position rather than having lottery balls. Can't remember his exact formula but it would lead to rewarding team that kept pushing for the entire season.

 

[JimAnchower]

Shane Doan had the concept of having teams eliminated from the playoffs play for the draft position rather than having lottery balls. Can't remember his exact formula but it would lead to rewarding team that kept pushing for the entire season.

I'd go crazy and get rid of the draft. It would be replaced by a system where every team is given the same amount of money to spend on players that would otherwise be eligible to be drafted. Then, each team would blindly bid on each player in groups. So first to be bid on would those expected to go in the first round, second those expected to go in the second round, etc. Teams put the blind bid on players they want, with the player going to the highest bidder. If there is a tie, player chooses. If there is a generational talent, you could bid your entire allotment of money on that player if you want, but you would only be able to draft that player if your bid wins. You can not go over your remaining allotment in any one round, so you can't give a max bid to multiple players in a round, but if your bid doesn't win you could use that in future rounds. Teams would have to spend all their money.

 

[gstommylee]

I'd go crazy and get rid of the draft. It would be replaced by a system where every team is given the same amount of money to spend on players that would otherwise be eligible to be drafted. Then, each team would blindly bid on each player in groups. So first to be bid on would those expected to go in the first round, second those expected to go in the second round, etc. Teams put the blind bid on players they want, with the player going to the highest bidder. If there is a tie, player chooses. If there is a generational talent, you could bid your entire allotment of money on that player if you want, but you would only be able to draft that player if your bid wins. You can not go over your remaining allotment in any one round, so you can't give a max bid to multiple players in a round, but if your bid doesn't win you could use that in future rounds. Teams would have to spend all their money.

That will never happen.

 

[Headshot77]

Shane Doan had the concept of having teams eliminated from the playoffs play for the draft position rather than having lottery balls. Can't remember his exact formula but it would lead to rewarding team that kept pushing for the entire season.

It was, IIRC, that as soon as you're mathematically eliminated any points won went to the draft seeding. So the worst team gets eliminated sooner and has more games to make up that difference, theoretically creating a more fair parity than lottery balls.

 

[fryfunk]

Come on - you know the other option. The big one - relocation.

It's pretty much a sure thing in my opinion. I get people are clinging on for hope, I'll admit I've been clinging on to the Nords coming back for a decade.

But this is basically the scenario we all imagined 10-15 years ago.

In the Atlanta situation you could at least imagine the league refusing relocation and demanding the thrashers contract with zero compensation.

In that case you'd have a shot in hell at getting a small bit of time to get a new arena set up.

But in this situation it's not even close. If Tempe wanted an arena you think they'd be so radically close to losing AM support?

The goal post moving is absurd we all know they have 3 months tops to make a deal.

Personally I wouldn't be shocked if they admitted to relocation Monday morning, hoping the superbowl diverts unwanted attention away from the Arizona fanbase. If they wait much longer the gossip etc is gonna go overboard.

I can't see this playing out much longer, it just doesn't make any sense. The ASU story is great as clickbait, it's a sensationalist idea that gets the sports talk going due to its novelty, but once the beer goggles wear the mess is obvious.

Gary throwing shade at the Arena owners in Arizona seemed like he was loading the bases so the "they didn't leave, they were forced out" narrative is strongest.

When you look at the events of the last two weeks, all I see is theatre. Put up the good show, prove a half hearted desperate attempt to save the team was tried, and then announce the relocation.

It's far far too gone at this point, you got a week tops before it's just an accepted fact the team is moving.

 

[OG6ix]

I would guess about $1.5 billion per team. Vegas and Seattle would be the top 2. The only caveat is both New Orleans and Memphis have lease agreements coming up. New Orleans in 2024 and Memphis is up in 2029 but they have out clauses available now and they become easier each year. Once 2027 rolls around it will be pretty easy to void the last 2 years of the lease. So its only a question of do they wait for those teams to get new deals or expand now and let those teams go to smaller markets (Louisville or back to Vancouver)

1.5 billion is low I think. After the NBA gets their next tv contract (they are looking for 8-10 billion a year) they may look at expanding. The price tag is going to go up to. The ironic thing is the NFL, NBA and to some extent the MLB is going to price out many potential owners leaving the gates open for NHL and probably MLS. If there are billionaires just looking to buy a sports team for vanity.

 

[gstommylee]

1.5 billion is low I think. After the NBA gets their next tv contract (they are looking for 8-10 billion a year) they may look at expanding. The price tag is going to go up to. The ironic thing is the NFL, NBA and to some extent the MLB is going to price out many potential owners leaving the gates open for NHL and probably MLS. If there are billionaires just looking to buy a sports team for vanity.

8-10b? up from 3b a year? Why in the world would they deserve that kind of an increase from ESPN/TNT?

 

[aqib]

But you're also up against the power of 2 boundary. 32 is just too good of a number to exceed for so many reasons. People here, the same ones who advocate for relocation, also largely already bemoan the "watering down of the product", yes?

Anyone, name a professional sports league in any team sport anywhere in the world that:
1) has more than 32 teams
2) does not have a system of promotion/relegation
3) average live attendance in the thousands

I'm willing to learn, but couldn't come up with one.

Yeah the watering down argument made sense years ago but isn't a big thing now. A few years ago there weren't enough quarterbacks to go around in the NFL, that's not really an issue anymore. In the 90s there were hardly any NBA teams with more than one super star now you have a few super teams. The NHL has a lot more talent pipelines now than in the past.

You can't really use other countries as an example. Out of the 50 most valuable sports franchises in the world (according to Forbes who I don't really trust but its all we've got) 41 of them are North American teams. The other 9 are European soccer teams, yes European soccer has the relegation and promotion system but there you also have more than one top flight league. You have Serie A, Premier League, La Liga, Ligue 1, and Bundesliga. Its not like there another hockey league whose best teams are on par with the NHL same with NBA, MLB, and NFL. So North American leagues are just different.