Current Matthews vs Peak Toews
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Empoleon8771
Registered User
I'm taking "current Matthews" as 2017-2018 Matthews, because to judge him on a 5 game sample size is lunacy. So basically both were PPG players, but Toews had Selke caliber defense. So yeah, not sure how this is a debate.
And even to start this year, Toews has more ES points than Matthews so far.
And even to start this year, Toews has more ES points than Matthews so far.
Kamiccolo
Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.
I get where you are coming from for sure so can't rag on this too hard but I would say that Matthews is one of the best defensive centers in the league so I don't consider better defensively as some "gotcha" especially when you see how talented offensively he is - in a lot of cases multiple times more talented than a guy like Toews.
Of course he has to prove it but this is a player like McDavid in that when you watch them, even if it was only one game, you realize this is someone at the top of their sport. Tavares is elite and good, but he doesn't stand out in that way.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Even if this was true, Toews was actually winning the Selke and was consistently in the top-5 in voting. Matthews didn't even get a vote for the Selke last year. Regardless of anyone's opinion on the bolded, Toews actually has the award showing he's one of the best defensive players in the league. Matthews doesn't.
I don't know what to think of Matthews defensively, I don't think he's as good defensively as Leafs fans say, but I'm not sure how good he actually is. The advanced stats results don't match the claims for me.
Can we wait until atleast halfway through the season before we get Matthews vs everyone in their prime to get a better idea of how good he really is?
current Matthews has had 4 great games, was PPG player last season, but didnt show up int he playoffs
Peak Toews was a PPG player, the best 2-way forward int he game, and a COnn Smyth/Cup winner
pretty obvious
Peak Toews was a PPG player, the best 2-way forward int he game, and a COnn Smyth/Cup winner
pretty obvious
You have to consider who he's played with so far. Why do you think his defensive play has been praised so much by everyone in the game? Barkov said last season he was the hardest center to match up against, tsn panel said he was 2nd in defensive plays to Bergeron. None of this means he's the 2nd best defensively because I'm pretty sure he's not, but it means he's extremely good at it.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
I never said he wasn't good defensively, I just don't know how good he is. I don't buy he's this amazing defensive center near the top of the league, because the results just don't say that. That doesn't mean he sucks defensively, I just don't buy that he has Selke caliber defense.
In this poll, it's a PPG player with Selke caliber defense vs a PPG player without Selke caliber defense, it's a really easy question.
Yeah this is why I commented earlier to wait until the end of the season and this poll probably won't be close. It is right now though and rightfully so, peak Toews is underrated on here.
BeastoftheEast85
Registered User
Matthews has a very good chance of surpassing Toews but for now it’s the one whose peak was pivota in 3 cups.
Kamiccolo
Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.
Right but let's just put aside the actual opinions we have for a moment. My point was more that he is good enough defensively that even if someone is a Selke winner, that additional defensive presence doesn't over value their offensive difference. For example Matthews has matched/done better than Toews career high in goals his first two seasons, and was only 7 points off his career high as a rookie.
So I just think when we talk about this stuff it really doesn't factor in.
And when you watch him, for the record, Leaf fans love him because he is able to break up the cycle in his own zone and is elite at stripping pucks from guys. He's strong and possess the puck a ton. So basically when he is on the ice, if he is in his own zone rarely does it last and when he has the puck he spends most of his time in the offensive zone. Compare that to someone like Kessel who is more of a off the rush scorer is why he was so poor defensively. Matthews actually gives sustained pressure in the zone.
TDK67
Registered User
- Apr 17, 2016
- 3,261
- 969
Since entering the league in 16-17
Matthews: 149 GP 59 5v5 Goals
Toews: 150 GP 66 5v5 Points
Matthews has almost as many goals as Toews has points at 5v5 since entering the NHL. That's primarily while being a rookie and (injured) sophomore. Matthews is in a different world at 5v5 production.
I agree Toews is/was better defensively though. Not sure that'll continue moving forward.
CantLoseWithMatthews
Registered User
- Sep 28, 2015
- 49,694
- 59,401
Peak Toews. Not even close.
Too much recency bias and homerism on here after a great 5 game stretch for Matthews. The board is becoming a bit of a joke.
Too much recency bias and homerism on here after a great 5 game stretch for Matthews. The board is becoming a bit of a joke.
SHANNYPLAN
Registered User
- Nov 24, 2016
- 5,223
- 2,608
Peak Toews was my favourite player (alongside Ovi), and was my dream C for the leafs.
The fact that Matthews is comparable (and significantly better imo) is insane
The fact that Matthews is comparable (and significantly better imo) is insane
More like Leafs fans who understand how depressed Matthews stats have been for the past 2 years, sorry you don't want to do your research.
By the end of the year this is gonna be Matthews by some.
At the start of the year people voted 3:1 McDavid over Matthews and Marner to start a franchise, so there goes your "homerism" idea.
I wouldn’t say ‘insane’. Just not a very reasonable position.
Silky mitts
It’s yours boys and girls and babes let’s go!
- Mar 9, 2004
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For people critical of the comparison what type of season would Matthews have to have for this to be close? Like if you like he’ll finish with 40+40 then maybe it’s a silly poll, but if you think he’ll finish with 50+50 then maybe it’s close.
Albus Dumbledore
Master of Death
- Mar 28, 2015
- 9,007
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I don't like the Toews was a ppg player at his best..he was ppg once and it was in the lockout shortened season and was only ever close once after... That's a stretch Imo. Don't care for the poll at all though.
Volica
Papa Shango
- May 15, 2012
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Wasn’t prime Toews a Selke level player and winning Cups it seemed like every year or two?
Wait, don't you mean the other way around? Toews career high is 76 points and he topped 70 once. If Matthews stays healthy he'll blow that crap out of the water while being a defensive beast himself.
Defensive beast?
Let’s not get carried away here. He’s got a long way to go before he hits that. Hyperbole doesn’t help your argument.
Pyrophorus
Registered User
This like that Stammer vs. Toews poll exactly.
Matthews in the regular season. Toews in the playoffs.
Matthews in the regular season. Toews in the playoffs.
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