Current Matthews vs Peak Toews

[hockeeyyy]

That wasn't peak Toews though, so pretty irrelevant. Toews from 10-11 to 12-13 had a 2.67 P/60 at ES, which was 3rd best in the league after Crosby and Malkin. The last 2 years, Matthews is 4th in tbe league with a 2.59 P/60

P1/60 is a better indicator of offensive performance. Toews would have finished 2nd behind Malkin in this case.

 

[loyaltotheend]

But he didn't really though. The point was "don't judge him on 5 games, but even if you do, they're both off to hot starts, so it shouldn't change much anyway"

It reads to me like he's saying Matthews isn't going to produce at the level he's started all season (which is obviously correct) so he will judge him by last year.
However, trying to pretend Toews ES production is on par with Matthews because of Toews hot start.

Matthews is a beast scoring at ES.

Anyway, it's not worth arguing about to me.

Cheers

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I'm pretty sure Matthews will end up the better player, but people want to give him accolades before he proves himself. Still needs that full elite season.

 

[bobholly39]

What's interesting though is Matthews seems to be in the same boat right now, where everyone in the media seems to hold him much higher than he generally is around here. But at the same time, a lot of posters who hold Matthews in high esteem will mention this, so they should also consider it for Toews

I agree it's happening with Matthews - but i feel a lot of that might be an agenda out of canadian/toronto based media because he plays for Toronto. I'm one of the last people you'd ever label a conspiracy theorist - but i wouldn't be surprised if TSN has a mandate out to all of their media to constantly talk Matthews up as one of the best in league. It helps with such a big market as Toronto.

I don't think Toews really had that connection. I know he did good for Canada interntionally, but it's not quite the same.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Matthews is definitely on another level offensively, but I still need to see him dominate a h2h playoff matchup -like Toews did regularly for half a decade- before I say he's better at winning you hockey games.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Some people are focusing too much on goals and points and ignoring the huge gap in defensive play of peak Toews.
Matthews is no where close to peak Toews defensively.

 

[Cup or Bust]

Matthews peak 6 games is better than Toews peak 6 games.

 

[Regal]

P1/60 is a better indicator of offensive performance. Toews would have finished 2nd behind Malkin in this case.

Did you mean Matthews?

I disagree that primary points are necessarily a better indicator, though both hold value. Regardless, the main point was peak Toews was similarly productive at ES. I think Matthews' advantage offensively so far is that he's done it with worse linemates, and that he's actually a productive PP player, he just hasn't been given that ice time much, whereas Toews regularly received good PP ice time but wasn't overly productive.

 

[hockeeyyy]

Did you mean Matthews?

I disagree that primary points are necessarily a better indicator, though both hold value. Regardless, the main point was peak Toews was similarly productive at ES. I think Matthews' advantage offensively so far is that he's done it with worse linemates, and that he's actually a productive PP player, he just hasn't been given that ice time much, whereas Toews regularly received good PP ice time but wasn't overly productive.

Nope. Between 10-11 and 12-13, Toews was just behind Malkin for P1/60. Primary points indicates a direct contribution to the score. A secondary assist tends to be noise -- which is why it's not taken very seriously in the analytics community.

Obviously, primary points per second isn't the be-all end-all, as you indicated about Matthews line-mates, but it does have its use as means of context.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

I consider peak Toews a 70-75 point, 30-35 goal guy. His PPG years were with less than 60 games played so you can't give him credit for those paces when he never accomplished that in full season, his career high is 76 pts - the only time he ever broke 70 points. It's likely his numbers go down if he played full seasons those two years, his playoff numbers combined (18 pts in 29 games) from those two years is a good example.

Current Matthews should be scoring PPG and 40 goals every year if he stays healthy. His hot start this year means 90 is in his reach for sure. So i guess we're probably all agreeing Matthews is a notch above offensively.

Toews is better defensively, but this is where you have to be careful when comparing the two players. Matthews' style isn't shutting down people. It's meeting them head on without holding back and he has the size, strength, skating and skill to give anyone a tough time. Toews himself lost the battle last year and even admitted so.

I want to see Matthews face some tough matchups this year before voting, if people can't contain him, then how he's viewed defensively doesn't really matter. He's not a guy like Stamkos who, if not getting on the board, really isn't giving the opponent many problems. Auston has the ability to wear people down physically.

Anyway, i think it's for sure close.

 

[Regal]

Nope. Between 10-11 and 12-13, Toews was just behind Malkin for P1/60. Primary points indicates a direct contribution to the score. A secondary assist tends to be noise -- which is why it's not taken very seriously in the analytics community.

Obviously, primary points per second isn't the be-all end-all, as you indicated about Matthews line-mates, but it does have its use as means of context.

Oh, I guess you're eliminating Crosby from your sample due to minutes, because he put up some ridiculous per 60 numbers in that time frame.

My problem with the secondary point argument is it tends to treat all players the same. I think there's a lot of players who will get them due to being on high scoring teams as complimentary players or defensemen. But star players tend to be the primary puck carriers and I don't think that ends up as noise. But I do think its interesting to look at both to see if there's reasons for why there might be a large disparity in how they rank relative to other players.

 

[talitintti]

Toews until Matthews becomes a 100 point scorer or can learn to suffocate opponents scoring chances. Right now he's leaking against and leaking bad.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Matthews is a beast and still very young. I'm excited to watch him play for the next decade or more.
But I'll wait until he actually wins something before comparing him to the Toewses, Kopitars, Malkins, etc.
Those guys have won multiple cups.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Complete, 100% Leafs bashing thread.


Signed- a Hawks fan

 

[Sheppy]

Can we gear down on Matthews a bit, folks.

 

[COHawk]

Matthews peak 6 games is better than Toews peak 6 games.

2009/10 postseason - 4/24/2010 thru 5/7/2010:

Date	Age	Tm		Opp		G	A	PTS
4/24/2010	21-360	CHI		NSH	W	0	2	2
4/26/2010	21-362	CHI	@	NSH	W	1	2	3
5/1/2010	22-002	CHI		VAN	L	0	1	1
5/3/2010	22-004	CHI		VAN	W	0	1	1
5/5/2010	22-006	CHI	@	VAN	W	0	3	3
5/7/2010	22-008	CHI	@	VAN	W	3	2	5
						4	11	15

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Michoulicious]

Between 2010 and 2015, "peak" Toews won 3 Stanley Cups, 2 Olympic gold medals, a Conn Smythe and a Selke...

Nothing against the Matthews (he is an awesome player), but until he accomplishes the same kind of things, you have to go with Toews.

 

[Goose312]

Peak Toews was dominant defensively, very good offensively, a playoff gamebreaker and was littered with hardware. Current day Matthews has absolutely nothing on peak Toews.