Current Matthews vs Peak Toews

[Ainec]

peak Toews, don't get how Matthews has a single vote

it's crazy to vote for Matthews until he hits 90 points this season (which I think he can)


and I also think peak Matthews will be better

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Peak Toews over current Matthews.

But assuming Matthews' career continues on its current trajectory I think his peak will be better than Toews' peak.

 

[Regal]

I don't like the Toews was a ppg player at his best..he was ppg once and it was in the lockout shortened season and was only ever close once after... That's a stretch Imo. Don't care for the poll at all though.

In 3 straight years he put up 0.95, 0.97 and 1.02 PPG.

 

[Regal]

Since entering the league in 16-17

Matthews: 149 GP 59 5v5 Goals
Toews: 150 GP 66 5v5 Points

Matthews has almost as many goals as Toews has points at 5v5 since entering the NHL. That's primarily while being a rookie and (injured) sophomore. Matthews is in a different world at 5v5 production.

I agree Toews is/was better defensively though. Not sure that'll continue moving forward.

That wasn't peak Toews though, so pretty irrelevant. Toews from 10-11 to 12-13 had a 2.67 P/60 at ES, which was 3rd best in the league after Crosby and Malkin. The last 2 years, Matthews is 4th in tbe league with a 2.59 P/60

 

[Semantics]

Defensive beast?
Let’s not get carried away here. He’s got a long way to go before he hits that. Hyperbole doesn’t help your argument.

Top 10 in the NHL in stick checks and blocked passes per game last year, top three in both this year. He's elite defensively.

From @MikeKellyNHL:

Blocked passes per game last year - forwards (even-strength)

1. Bergeron
2. O'Reilly
3. Kopitar
4. Stone
5. Getzlaf
6. Barkov
7. Matthews

Stick checks

1. Barkov
2. Matthews
3. Bergeron

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

In 3 straight years he put up 0.95, 0.97 and 1.02 PPG.

So a sub PPG player then which is fine to call him that at his best.

 

[TDK67]

That wasn't peak Toews though, so pretty irrelevant. Toews from 10-11 to 12-13 had a 2.67 P/60 at ES, which was 3rd best in the league after Crosby and Malkin. The last 2 years, Matthews is 4th in tbe league with a 2.59 P/60

Was "peak Toews" in his D+1 & D+2 years? Pretty irrelevant comparison then.

And before you say my comparison was irrelevant, look at what I was quoting. Someone was trying to compare Toews' and Matthews' ES production *right now*. They're simply in different stratospheres *right now* with all due respect to Toews.

 

[Luminiferous]

Towes until Matthews does some more damage over time. It is too hard to say at this point. I believe Matthews to be the better player when all is said and done. As of now, it has to be Towes. Not enough time has passed...

 

[Regal]

Was "peak Toews" in his D+1 & D+2 years? Pretty irrelevant comparison then.

And before you say my comparison was irrelevant, look at what I was quoting. Someone was trying to compare Toews' and Matthews' ES production *right now*. They're simply in different stratospheres *right now* with all due respect to Toews.

The comparison is about current Matthews vs peak Toews, so that comparison was on topic. That it was Matthews's D+1 and D+2 years are what's irrelevant.

And I realize the poster mentioned their current scoring but it seemed obvious the point wasn't that Toews is currently as good or better, but that people shouldn't get too ahead of themselves with regards to Matthews due to his start

 

[Regal]

So a sub PPG player then which is fine to call him that at his best.

181 points in 186 games. At a certain point, when the difference is miniscule, it's just easier to say PPG. It's the most accurate descriptor without specifying the exact numbers

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

181 points in 186 games. At a certain point, when the difference is miniscule, it's just easier to say PPG.

I disagree there's a term and it's called sub PPG. A player who is close to ppg but not quite there. That is Toews at his best a sub PPG selke winning center.

 

[TDK67]

The comparison is about current Matthews vs peak Toews, so that comparison was on topic. That it was Matthews's D+1 and D+2 years are what's irrelevant.

And I realize the poster mentioned their current scoring but it seemed obvious the point wasn't that Toews is currently as good or better, but that people shouldn't get too ahead of themselves with regards to Matthews due to his start

Matthews has been one of the best 5v5 producers since entering the league. His start this season has little effect on that and it doesn't make sense to try and bring up a 5 game sample where Toews happens to have slightly better 5v5 production as proof of anything.

That's all I was getting at in my original comment.

 

[Regal]

I disagree there's a term and it's called sub PPG. A player who is close to ppg but not quite there. That is Toews at his best a sub PPG selke winning center.

Interesting. I've never heard anyone use that before. It works based on your definition, but to me, sub-PPG doesn't naturally suggest how close the player is to PPG

 

[Regal]

Matthews has been one of the best 5v5 producers since entering the league. His start this season has little effect on that and it doesn't make sense to try and bring up a 5 game sample where Toews happens to have slightly better 5v5 production as proof of anything.

That's all I was getting at in my original comment.

That's fair, I retract my initial post then. But as I said I think you misinterpreted what that poster was suggesting. I think he was using Toews's similarly strong start this year to suggest neither start should be used as proof of anything since it's obvious Matthews is better now. And that we shouldn't put Matthews on a level based on what he might do this season, and focus on what he's proven so far.

 

[authentic]

Matthews is better, he just has prove it over the next year or two, which he will without much problem.

 

[Regal]

Matthews is better, he just has prove it over the next year or two, which he will without much problem.

This is kind of where I'm at. I think he's better at this moment but hasn't actually had a better season to show it yet. Last year was close with Toews' best, but not quite as good.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Toews was a beast in the 2010 playoffs. Seemed like a man on a mission. (And I HATED the Hawks)

Matthews has had a great start with his teammates but I don't think he's at peak Toews level yet.

 

[ColbyChaos]

At the start of the year people voted 3:1 McDavid over Matthews and Marner to start a franchise, so there goes your "homerism" idea.

You posted that in like 3 threads just admit you’re bitter and move on already...

 

[GodEmperor]

You posted that in like 3 threads just admit you’re bitter and move on already...

Yeah I'm so mad Matthews is proving people wrong. I AM STEAMING!!!!!

Good to see you're reading my posts though, maybe one day you'll learn to count too.

 

[loyaltotheend]

The comparison is about current Matthews vs peak Toews, so that comparison was on topic. That it was Matthews's D+1 and D+2 years are what's irrelevant.

And I realize the poster mentioned their current scoring but it seemed obvious the point wasn't that Toews is currently as good or better, but that people shouldn't get too ahead of themselves with regards to Matthews due to his start

That poster actually mentioned it would be silly to judge Matthews based on 5 games, then compared ES points in those same games...

Not that I disagree with his overall point, but that's a bit much.

 

[ijuka]

Matthews is better.

 

[bobholly39]

Voted Toews

But again - it depends. Matthews has been spectacular so far this year - if he can maintain that pace all year (not literally or we'll anoint him a #99 jersey) that's definitely better than Toews. So I voted Toews - but i could see Matthews surpassing him as early as this year depending on how things shape up

Finally - for all the fun Toews gets made of - don't forget how many GM's and people around the NHL were seriously arguing him above even Crosby for some time. That's gotta count for something.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

Voted Toews

But again - it depends. Matthews has been spectacular so far this year - if he can maintain that pace all year (not literally or we'll anoint him a #99 jersey) that's definitely better than Toews. So I voted Toews - but i could see Matthews surpassing him as early as this year depending on how things shape up

Finally - for all the fun Toews gets made of - don't forget how many GM's and people around the NHL were seriously arguing him above even Crosby for some time. That's gotta count for something.

Matthews is great but he will never have the intangibles that Towes has. Legit can't believe I am the 1st one to mention the intangibles!

 

[Regal]

That poster actually mentioned it would be silly to judge Matthews based on 5 games, then compared ES points in those same games...

Not that I disagree with his overall point, but that's a bit much.

But he didn't really though. The point was "don't judge him on 5 games, but even if you do, they're both off to hot starts, so it shouldn't change much anyway"

 

[Regal]

Voted Toews

But again - it depends. Matthews has been spectacular so far this year - if he can maintain that pace all year (not literally or we'll anoint him a #99 jersey) that's definitely better than Toews. So I voted Toews - but i could see Matthews surpassing him as early as this year depending on how things shape up

Finally - for all the fun Toews gets made of - don't forget how many GM's and people around the NHL were seriously arguing him above even Crosby for some time. That's gotta count for something.

What's interesting though is Matthews seems to be in the same boat right now, where everyone in the media seems to hold him much higher than he generally is around here. But at the same time, a lot of posters who hold Matthews in high esteem will mention this, so they should also consider it for Toews