Cup winners with 1 or less HHOFer

[Big Phil]

Inspired by Nalyd psycho's post in another thread about overacheiving teams that won the Cup. He mentioned the '38 Blackhawks as being the only team (I believe) to have just one HHOFer on their team in a Cup winning season.

Made me think, let's analyze our most recent Cup winners. If we go back to the '50s and '60 and even '40s we already know who is in there. It all checks out I believe. As does the '70s and even the '80s. Both Pens teams have a whack of HHOFers and the Devils teams that won will have (Brodeur, Stevens, Niedermayer) when all is said and done. '94 has Messier and Leetch, at least. '96 and '01Avs will check out. '97 and '98 and '02 Wings are good. '99 Stars will have at least Belfour and Hull in there with others like Modano and Nieuwy and Zubov making a threat. '07 Ducks will have at least Pronger and Niedermayer there possibly among others. '08 Wings will have a minimum of Lidstrom and Chelios. Even the '93 Habs have Roy and Savard in there.

That leaves the '04 Lightning and the '06 Canes.

Let's just go hypothetically with this one. I dont care much for this, but we all know there is a chance that Andreychuk can get in. I wouldnt, nor should he, but I am not the HHOF. That leaves Richards, St. Louis, Lecavalier and Khabibulin as the only others with a chance. Khabibulin will never get in IMO. Richards probably wont either. So by my count that leaves me with Lecavalier (probable) and St. Louis who arguably is sitting at a 40-50% chance on projection. We shall see.

Now we have the '06 Canes. The players with the best careers or best potential ones are Recchi, Weight, Staal, BrindAmour. No one on that defense is getting in, and it'll be a cold day in July if Cam Ward does as well. So could this team fit the bill? Weight wont get in. BrindAmour probably wont and to be honest doesnt deserve it. That leaves me with Staal and Recchi. Recchi has pros and cons going against him both ways. Staal is young yet and will get in if he has years like '05-06, but if he doesnt I dont think he'll be in there. That leaves them with a maximum of two, and that's being generous I think.

So some feedback, which team will be more likely to fit that bill of 1 or less HHOFer?

Click to read more...

 

[DaveG]

I think you may be underrating Brind'Amour a bit and overrating St Louis a good bit at this point but on the whole I'm inclined to agree with your post.

Vinny is likely at this point. I'd probably say about a 70% chance of him getting in, possibly even better.

St Louis is already 33 and probably won't sniff 1000 points as a career total. Despite the individual hardware and a cup his career (for being in the modern era) is just too short. I think you can say goodbye to that possibility leaving Vinny the only likely HOFer on that team.

Brind'Amour likely has to rack up, at a minimum, 1250 points and he's a good bit short of that (130+ points I think). But if he gets there his two Selke Trophies will really help his case for getting in. I'd say he has a 40% chance right now that he gets there. If he does he's in.

Recchi I think is in. Probably not first ballot but I'd say he has as good shot at it. There always seemed to be something missing with him but he has the production, he played key rolls on some cup teams both early and late in his career, had a couple of key playoff runs. About the only thing he's missing is the individual hardware and with some of the names in the hall right now I just can't see him being passed over for more then 5 years or so.

Staal... way too early to tell on him. The one thing to look at with him though is that, even eliminating the 05-06 season, Staal has produced at a much better pace at this point in his career then Vinny had and Staal is still growing into his body. Staal's 4th and 5th career season (including his season in Lowell due to the lockout) were both stronger then Lecavaliers by a good bit. If Staal takes a similar development path he'll be the better player throughout his career.

Who knows, maybe it's just the homer in me and I'm completely off on this.

 

[Reds4Life]

Vinny is likely at this point. I'd probably say about a 70% chance of him getting in, possibly even better

Really? Why? Lecavalier has one SC (he was not even top3 player on that team) and one Richard trophy. Not even PPG player.

 

[DaveG]

Really? Why? Lecavalier has one SC (he was not even top3 player on that team) and one Richard trophy. Not even PPG player.

I think, mostly based off of his post-lockout stats since he's in the early part of his prime yet, he'll at least be close to point-per-game by the time he retires. I think you're going to see more players short of scoring at point-per-game levels getting hall consideration about 10-15 years from now mostly as a result of the "dead puck era" from the late 90s-early part of this decade.

Don't get me wrong, Vinny still has a lot to prove, I just think he'll end up proving it.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

'07 Ducks will have at least Pronger and Niedermayer there possibly among others.

I'd say it's very generous to put both Niedermayer and Pronger already in. Selanne is the only lock from that team, so they could potentially only have one when it's said and done.

 

[MXD]

I'd say it's very generous to put both Niedermayer and Pronger already in. Selanne is the only lock from that team, so they could potentially only have one when it's said and done.

.... At this point, it's pretty sure that Pronger is in. IMO. Maybe not Nieds, but Pronger. He lacks sportsmanship, but he'll probably get in.

 

[Anon2404]

I don't see how Scott Niedermayer is not a lock really. He has 4 cups, a Norris, a couple first team NHL awards, a second team, at least 3 all-star game appearance (might be more), not to mention a very impressive international resume.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

.... At this point, it's pretty sure that Pronger is in. IMO. Maybe not Nieds, but Pronger. He lacks sportsmanship, but he'll probably get in.

as said, selanne is probably the closest right now. he could probably retire now and have a pretty good shot with a ten-fifteen year window. niedermayer is close, but he went very quickly from being very underrated to somewhat overrated in the second half of 2003 and his legacy might even out in the coming years, leaving him probably a borderline HHOF candidate. pronger is also close, but could stand to strengthen his case with a couple more playoff runs or post-season all-star-type seasons.

but what about giguere? one of the greatest cinderella runs of all time, a conn smythe, and a cup. not the strongest regular season resume, obviously, but he's had some solid-to-good seasons and he had one of the longest shutout streaks of all time. unfortunately, his best regular season (2002-'03), when i pegged him as a vezina candidate, went largely unnoticed because it happened before his great playoff run. he's almost certainly not a hall of famer quite yet, but i'd say he projects to have at least a good a chance as, say, lecavalier, not knowing what the next 5-10 years have in store.

 

[ck26]

I'd say it's very generous to put ... Pronger already in.

How many Hart Trophy winners AREN'T in the Hall?

Al Rollins
Tommy Anderson won during WWII
Jose Theodore won't get in
Martin St Louis almost certainly won't
Eric Lindros is probably a coin-toss
The jury is still out on Thornton, Crosby and Ovechkin

That's a really short list. I think Pronger is far better than any of those 5 and he's probably already in.

 

[MadArcand]

Pronger far better than Lindros...? Lindros is more deserving of HHOF than Niedermayer and Pronger. It's Hockey Hall of Fame, not of Long Careers.

 

[Big Phil]

Really? Why? Lecavalier has one SC (he was not even top3 player on that team) and one Richard trophy. Not even PPG player.

He's also 28 as well. He looks like he'll rack up another 90-100 point season this year again and that'll strengthen his numbers. Leading the NHL in goals is pretty impressive though considering he also had 108 points and a 2nd team all-star that year. Remember it was in the middle of the season last year before he relinquished the NHL scoring lead. He was probably the Hart favourite in January last year. Based on a projection he's in

 

[Big Phil]

I'd say it's very generous to put both Niedermayer and Pronger already in. Selanne is the only lock from that team, so they could potentially only have one when it's said and done.

Selanne is a lock no question. Led the league in goals 3 times. Two first team all-stars ('93, '97) two 2nd team all-stars ('98, '99). One Cup. 3 100+ seasons.

But how can you not already think that Pronger and Niedermayer arent already locks either?
Pronger: 1st team all-star ('00), 2nd team all-star ('98, '04, '07). Norris and Hart Trophy ('00). Cup in '07. Two great playoff performances in '06 and '07. Seems like a lock to me.

Niedermayer: 1st team all-star ('04, '06, '07) 2nd team all-star ('98). Norris in '04. 4 Cups. A wealth of international fame.

Carl Brewer is the only player I can think of as a defensemen with 4 post season all-star nods that is not in the HHOF. And who is to say that Nieds and Pronger will stop there? After Brewer, only Rick Martin, Leclair and possibly Kariya wont be HHOFers with at least 4 all-star nods (although if I'm a betting man Kariya is in).

And as far as Norris Trophies go, only Carlyle and Wilson will probably never get in with Blake probably being on the greater side of 50%. That's pretty good odds for our current Ducks HHOFers.

 

[MXD]

Really? Why? Lecavalier has one SC (he was not even top3 player on that team) and one Richard trophy. Not even PPG player.

Unless a major crashdown (like retiring at 30), Vinny will get in. Take the last five seasons, and Vinny is, AT WORST, the 2nd best forward in the league. And it's even not sure, at this point, that Sid and AO will have done better in five years than Lecavalier did in the last five years.

He's also the face of the first second-wave expansion team to win a Cup. Only that could be enough. When all is said and done, Vinny will be over 500 goals, over 1100 pts - and that's nearly a pessimistic projection.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Unless a major crashdown (like retiring at 30), Vinny will get in. Take the last five seasons, and Vinny is, AT WORST, the 2nd best forward in the league. And it's even not sure, at this point, that Sid and AO will have done better in five years than Lecavalier did in the last five years.

He's also the face of the first second-wave expansion team to win a Cup. Only that could be enough. When all is said and done, Vinny will be over 500 goals, over 1100 pts - and that's nearly a pessimistic projection.

I just do not see what you are getting at here.

Lecavalier was second best forward once in those last 5 years, and even that is debatable as Thornton was tied with him IMO.
Ovechkin and Crosby have already passed him.

Edit: And on top of that, that was one of his only 2 elite seasons. Not that I am saying he will miss the hall, but he is not a lock without a few more years like 07

 

[Foy]

Pronger far better than Lindros...? Lindros is more deserving of HHOF than Niedermayer and Pronger. It's Hockey Hall of Fame, not of Long Careers.

Pronger has as many Hart trophies as Lindros. Lindros does have a Lester B. Pearson. Pronger has two +/- award trophies. Pronger has 5 all-star games, Lindross 6.


Here's Pronger's advantage:

Pronger has 2 First Team All-Stars and 2 Second Team All-Stars.

Lindross just has 1 First Team All-Star and 1 Second Team All-Star.

I think Pronger deserves it more than Lindross at this point.

 

[100mph slapshot]

Selanne is a lock no question. Led the league in goals 3 times. Two first team all-stars ('93, '97) two 2nd team all-stars ('98, '99). One Cup. 3 100+ seasons.

Four 100+ seasons.

132pts in 92-93
108pts in 95-96
109pts in 96-97
107pts in 98-99

 

[Randall Graves*]

I think Recchi will get in at some point I don't think the HHOF will ignore the numbers. I know alot of us here put emphasis on peak post season all stars etc..but given Recchis regular season, and post season numbers he'll get in, he will just wait a few years

 

[MadArcand]

Pronger has as many Hart trophies as Lindros. Lindros does have a Lester B. Pearson. Pronger has two +/- award trophies. Pronger has 5 all-star games, Lindross 6.


Here's Pronger's advantage:

Pronger has 2 First Team All-Stars and 2 Second Team All-Stars.

Lindross just has 1 First Team All-Star and 1 Second Team All-Star.

I think Pronger deserves it more than Lindross at this point.

Pronger also got his ASTs in a relatively weak era for defensemen, while Lindros had tougher competition in center.

Bottom line, Lindros is a legend. Not only for the good stuff, but still. Pronger? He's HoF worthy, but ahead of Lindros? Compared to him, fame-wise, he's almost a nobody*.

*- exaggeration intentional

 

[Randall Graves*]

I'd say it's very generous to put both Niedermayer and Pronger already in. Selanne is the only lock from that team, so they could potentially only have one when it's said and done.

They are both locks to make it, i'm always surprised when people do this. They've both been top 3-5 dmen for several years. Pronger has a hart and Norris, plus great post season performances, Niedermayer has a Conn Smythe and Norris, plus great post season performances. Niedermayer would easily make it if he retired right now.

 

[Randall Graves*]

as said, selanne is probably the closest right now. he could probably retire now and have a pretty good shot with a ten-fifteen year window. niedermayer is close, but he went very quickly from being very underrated to somewhat overrated in the second half of 2003 and his legacy might even out in the coming years, leaving him probably a borderline HHOF candidate. pronger is also close, but could stand to strengthen his case with a couple more playoff runs or post-season all-star-type seasons.

but what about giguere? one of the greatest cinderella runs of all time, a conn smythe, and a cup. not the strongest regular season resume, obviously, but he's had some solid-to-good seasons and he had one of the longest shutout streaks of all time. unfortunately, his best regular season (2002-'03), when i pegged him as a vezina candidate, went largely unnoticed because it happened before his great playoff run. he's almost certainly not a hall of famer quite yet, but i'd say he projects to have at least a good a chance as, say, lecavalier, not knowing what the next 5-10 years have in store.

What's wrong with Gigueres regular season numbers? If you analyze them and compare them to all goalies since then he stacks up pretty well, he's got 4 30 win seasons since 2003, Broduer and Turco are the only others to do that, consistantly one of the best save percentage goalies in the league, and last year was top 5 in GAA and save percentage and really should've been up for the vezina

 

[Big Phil]

Four 100+ seasons.

132pts in 92-93
108pts in 95-96
109pts in 96-97
107pts in 98-99

Yes that's correct my fault for forgetting his '95-96 season split between two teams

 

[Kyle McMahon]

First off, I'm not saying Niedermayer or Pronger won't get in. I just don't think they can be considered locks at this point.

Between the two I'd give Niedermayer the better chance, even though I don't think he's the better player, seeing as it is the Hall of FAME and not the Hall of Best Players. All the guy has done is win at every level, and will go down as one of few non-dynasty players to win as many Cups as he did. He's had a nice career, not spectacular though. Really only blossomed into a premier defenseman in 2003. For the first decade of his career he was merely good. Since the Hall counts Cups, and since the media has created such a Niedermayer bandwagon post-lockout, he'll probably sneak in in a weak year one of these days.

I'd equate Pronger pretty closely with Lindros, and I wouldn't put Lindros in. Despite his talent, he didn't get enough done during his prime. Only managed to win one Norris, and was never a runner-up, in weak era for defenseman. Had an handful of third to fifth place finishes. A key player on a Cup finalist and a Cup winner, but even in his win he managed to get suspended twice at inopportune times and his team still got the job done. The biggest negative is probably the fact that Pronger is pretty much universally disliked both on and off the ice. If he retired today he might get in down the road, but definitely not on the first ballot.

 

[Randall Graves*]

First off, I'm not saying Niedermayer or Pronger won't get in. I just don't think they can be considered locks at this point.

Between the two I'd give Niedermayer the better chance, even though I don't think he's the better player, seeing as it is the Hall of FAME and not the Hall of Best Players. All the guy has done is win at every level, and will go down as one of few non-dynasty players to win as many Cups as he did. He's had a nice career, not spectacular though. Really only blossomed into a premier defenseman in 2003. For the first decade of his career he was merely good. Since the Hall counts Cups, and since the media has created such a Niedermayer bandwagon post-lockout, he'll probably sneak in in a weak year one of these days.

I'd equate Pronger pretty closely with Lindros, and I wouldn't put Lindros in. Despite his talent, he didn't get enough done during his prime. Only managed to win one Norris, and was never a runner-up, in weak era for defenseman. Had an handful of third to fifth place finishes. A key player on a Cup finalist and a Cup winner, but even in his win he managed to get suspended twice at inopportune times and his team still got the job done. The biggest negative is probably the fact that Pronger is pretty much universally disliked both on and off the ice. If he retired today he might get in down the road, but definitely not on the first ballot.

Who doesn't like him? The fans? Media?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

What's wrong with Gigueres regular season numbers? If you analyze them and compare them to all goalies since then he stacks up pretty well, he's got 4 30 win seasons since 2003, Broduer and Turco are the only others to do that, consistantly one of the best save percentage goalies in the league, and last year was top 5 in GAA and save percentage and really should've been up for the vezina

nothing wrong with those numbers at all. but considering what belfour, brodeur, and roy did in their first decade in the league, they're clearly not hall of fame numbers.

 

[mrhockey193195]

I don't see how Scott Niedermayer is not a lock really. He has 4 cups, a Norris, a couple first team NHL awards, a second team, at least 3 all-star game appearance (might be more), not to mention a very impressive international resume.

Because for the first 10 years of his career, he wasn't a top 10 defenseman in the league?

He gets the benefit of having played very well in his later years, which raises him up in the minds of many people. It's the "what have you done for me lately" treatment, which also props up Rod Brind'amour, who frankly has no merit for being in the HOF (coming from a HUGE Brind'amour fan). People forget that during the first 10+ years of these guys' careers, they were not star players.

Meanwhile, guys who dominated the league for the majority of their careers, but finished off slowly, are often left behind in HOF talk or are not given enough credit (i.e. they are called "borderline" HOFers, when they clearly deserve to be in). Such players, IMO, include Lindros, Belfour (people forget that aside from Hasek and Roy, no one was better during the 1990s), and to a lesser extent, guys like Roenick, Fedorov (luckily, he usually excapes this, but there are still people who don't think he belongs in the HOF) and Kariya.