Red Sox/MLB Cubs’ Theo Epstein stepping down as president of baseball operations

[CDJ]

Well they “whiffed“ on Graterol by making a better deal according to pretty much everybody in the industry so it’s tough to give them shit for that. Also Graterol doesn’t really strike guys out and seems like he could be reliever-only. I still love the arm though. Electric

Also Kenta Maeda was better than Graterol this year and was a starter so the twins didn’t miss Graterol either

Perez is an ok back end of the rotation guy. An elite reliever just went completely unclaimed at a reasonable $10 mill. You have to think about the market. I think the Sox can either bring him back cheaper than the option or use the money on a better pitcher

Also it’s smart because they can actually use that roster spot for now and see how the market unfolds. It doesn’t prevent them from bringing him back if they want him back

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

f*** Manny Machado

The lack of HOF chatter around Pedroia has baffled me for a while. Just looking at his resume you'd think he's in.

MVP
ROY
4x GG
Silver Slugger
2 rings

 

[EvilDead]

The lack of HOF chatter around Pedroia has baffled me for a while. Just looking at his resume you'd think he's in.

MVP
ROY
4x GG
Silver Slugger
2 rings

The decline of his play due to injury may have to do with that. His combined career numbers aren't impressive enough I fear. Pedroia didn't get 2000 hits, 200 plus home runs, or what have you.

 

[McGarnagle]

This doesn't make much sense to me. If he pitches like he did this year that's a bargain. If he doesn't you don't sign him to an extension.

I've heard that the idea is that they're still going to make an offer to bring him back, but since the entire market is going to be depressed due to low Covid revenues, they don't want to lock themselves into any options signed before the shutdown and think the going rate for a pitcher like him will be closer to $3 than $6. Of course, it's definitely taking a gamble by declining a player's option then offering him less and expecting him to entertain it. Though from all indications Perez loved it here (as much as one could in 2020, that is), so we'll see.

 

[McGarnagle]

The lack of HOF chatter around Pedroia has baffled me for a while. Just looking at his resume you'd think he's in.

MVP
ROY
4x GG
Silver Slugger
2 rings

Eh, he's got the big accomplishments down, as you point out. But the overall resume falls short due to his injuries. He's fairly close on Bill James' HOF monitor formula, but all the other nerd ones like Black Ink and Gray Ink he's well off the mark.

Only three modern 2nd basemen (which I'd call 1990-present) are in the Hall: Ryne Sandberg, Robbie Alomar, and Craig Biggio. Pedroia is actually right with them on career OPS+, which goes to show how good he was over his career. But he doesn't have the milestones. Doesn't have 2000 hits, only has 725 RBI, 140 homers. He was every bit as good as Biggio outside of speed, but Craig was a compiler who hung on until he was 41 to pick up that 3000 hit plateau. Pedroia was essentially done at 33. And Alomar and Sandberg had significantly better power numbers (cough cough).

I'd love him to get consideration but it's going to be a tough sell.

 

[Gator Mike]

This doesn't make much sense to me. If he pitches like he did this year that's a bargain. If he doesn't you don't sign him to an extension.

Most years it's a bargain. I'm not sure it will be this year, though.

Possible the Sox expect the market to be so depressed that they think they'll be able to get a better pitcher than Perez for $7 million next year?

 

[CharaBadSenyshynGawd]

What’s the upside for Pedroia ending his contract? Imagine a cushy FO spot or something similar?

I also think he falls pretty well short of the HOF on votes but I wonder if he’s a guy that slips in on the veterans committee

 

[BMC]

f*** Manny Machado

Quoted for truth.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Eh, he's got the big accomplishments down, as you point out. But the overall resume falls short due to his injuries. He's fairly close on Bill James' HOF monitor formula, but all the other nerd ones like Black Ink and Gray Ink he's well off the mark.

Only three modern 2nd basemen (which I'd call 1990-present) are in the Hall: Ryne Sandberg, Robbie Alomar, and Craig Biggio. Pedroia is actually right with them on career OPS+, which goes to show how good he was over his career. But he doesn't have the milestones. Doesn't have 2000 hits, only has 725 RBI, 140 homers. He was every bit as good as Biggio outside of speed, but Craig was a compiler who hung on until he was 41 to pick up that 3000 hit plateau. Pedroia was essentially done at 33. And Alomar and Sandberg had significantly better power numbers (cough cough).

I'd love him to get consideration but it's going to be a tough sell.

which hits on my gripe with the voters.

they'll vote in a mediocre player who compiled "HOF" level stats by playing forever but ignore the guys who had short careers due to injury but were HOF level over that time. He gets another strike by being a small guy who didnt hit for power so they cant point to any gaudy HR/RBI seasons to justify it. For instance, Pedroia was on a 3000 hit pace with 1785 hits in his 10 full seasons and 1805 in his 13 overall seasons.

Hell, his 53.1 WAR over his 10 full seasons (51.6 WAR over 13 total) is almost double the pace of HOF'ers like:

Raines: 69.4 WAR over 23 seasons
Biggio: 65.5 WAR over 20 seasons
Dawson: 64.8 WAR over 21 seasons
Baines: 38.7 WAR over 24 seasons
Trammel: 70.7 WAR over 20 seasons

FWIW it's the same pace as Joe Morgan (100.5 WAR over 22 seasons)

At their best does anyone take Baines, Raines, Trammel or Perez over Pedroia?

 

[McGarnagle]

What’s the upside for Pedroia ending his contract? Imagine a cushy FO spot or something similar?

I also think he falls pretty well short of the HOF on votes but I wonder if he’s a guy that slips in on the veterans committee

Either a coaching spot, or, honestly, he'd be an incredible studio analyst on NESN or even MLB Network. Perfect personality for it. Maybe eventually replacing Remy as color commentator, but I think studio analyst fits him better.

 

[LouJersey]

which hits on my gripe with the voters.

they'll vote in a mediocre player who compiled "HOF" level stats by playing forever but ignore the guys who had short careers due to injury but were HOF level over that time. He gets another strike by being a small guy who didnt hit for power so they cant point to any gaudy HR/RBI seasons to justify it. For instance, Pedroia was on a 3000 hit pace with 1785 hits in his 10 full seasons and 1805 in his 13 overall seasons.

Hell, his 53.1 WAR over his 10 full seasons (51.6 WAR over 13 total) is almost double the pace of HOF'ers like:

Raines: 69.4 WAR over 23 seasons
Biggio: 65.5 WAR over 20 seasons
Dawson: 64.8 WAR over 21 seasons
Baines: 38.7 WAR over 24 seasons
Trammel: 70.7 WAR over 20 seasons

FWIW it's the same pace as Joe Morgan (100.5 WAR over 22 seasons)

At their best does anyone take Baines, Raines, Trammel or Perez over Pedroia?

I don't consider any of the above hall of famers.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I don't consider any of the above hall of famers.

me neither, and realistically I'd have Pedroia in the "gets some votes but falls short" category.

just making the point that given where the committee has set the bar it makes no sense how little HOF talk there is around Pedroia

 

[McGarnagle]

Most years it's a bargain. I'm not sure it will be this year, though.

Possible the Sox expect the market to be so depressed that they think they'll be able to get a better pitcher than Perez for $7 million next year?

There's going to be a lot of one-year show-me deals this winter, which gives us a chance to quickly bounce back without committing long-term money. The top free agents on the market will be able to command back-loaded 4-5 year deals where they could make the money they would've probably made already. But it's the middle-range of free agent pitchers in the James Paxton, Tijuan Walker, Garrett Richards range who will be looking to have one good year to try to make money next year. The MLB Trade Rumors free agent predictions list linked us with Jose Quintana on that type of deal. I'd take it.

 

[yazmybaby]

Well they “whiffed“ on Graterol by making a better deal according to pretty much everybody in the industry so it’s tough to give them shit for that. Also Graterol doesn’t really strike guys out and seems like he could be reliever-only. I still love the arm though. Electric

Also Kenta Maeda was better than Graterol this year and was a starter so the twins didn’t miss Graterol either

Perez is an ok back end of the rotation guy. An elite reliever just went completely unclaimed at a reasonable $10 mill. You have to think about the market. I think the Sox can either bring him back cheaper than the option or use the money on a better pitcher

Also it’s smart because they can actually use that roster spot for now and see how the market unfolds. It doesn’t prevent them from bringing him back if they want him back

I think the free agent market this year can be compared to the recent NHL FA market, lots of great bargains to be had and very few big dollars will be spent.
We need 1-2 starters and the BP needs a good overhaul.
I hope we stay away from any long term deals ( 3 years or more).
We have Mata ready in 1 year and maybe Groome in 2 years and Song should be a decent starter when he gets back from his stint in the Navy.

 

[CDJ]

I think the free agent market this year can be compared to the recent NHL FA market, lots of great bargains to be had and very few big dollars will be spent.
We need 1-2 starters and the BP needs a good overhaul.
I hope we stay away from any long term deals ( 3 years or more).
We have Mata ready in 1 year and maybe Groome in 2 years and Song should be a decent starter when he gets back from his stint in the Navy.

The good news about Song is that most kids from his draft missed their first year of development too so he’s not going to be too far off course. He’s an exciting prospect


I think they are going to totally overhaul the bullpen but I don’t see them spending a lot of money to do it. Tampa always got incredibly creative with their bullpen and it was always pretty good- relief pitching is so volatile that it’s not wise to invest heavily in it so you’d be hard pressed to find a reliever the Rays ever spent anything on. There is better use of that money.

 

[RoccoF14]

At their best does anyone take Baines, Raines, Trammel or Perez over Pedroia?

I take at least 2 out of those 4 ahead of Pedroia.

 

[Gator Mike]

Friend of mine brought up a point that I didn't have an answer for in regards to bringing Cora back...

What if there's more to the Astros' scandal that the public doesn't know about? Could the Red Sox put themselves in a position where they bring Cora back to manage the team, and then in the middle of next season, a story drops that makes them look terrible for bringing him back so quickly?

 

[Johnnyduke]

Another sign stealing story? I legitimately don't care. I am so over that nonsense. By the way I really don't even care about bringing Cora back unless you think he gets the most out of guys like Bogaerts, Devers and ERod.

 

[McGarnagle]

Friend of mine brought up a point that I didn't have an answer for in regards to bringing Cora back...

What if there's more to the Astros' scandal that the public doesn't know about? Could the Red Sox put themselves in a position where they bring Cora back to manage the team, and then in the middle of next season, a story drops that makes them look terrible for bringing him back so quickly?

The MLB investigated it pretty thoroughly, and it's pretty much confirmed that the idea came from rogue replay room operators with Luhnow's blessing and that Cora and Beltran helped coordinate it on the baseball end of things and both were thrown under the bus by that organization and its players because they were easy targets once they left for new jobs.

 

[GlenFeatherstone]

Based off of what Joe Kelly was saying on a podcast earlier this year plus Hinch and (hopefully) Cora getting jobs immediately after their suspension were over, I say people in the game feel those 2 were the scapegoats and put the blame squarely on the Astros players.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Friend of mine brought up a point that I didn't have an answer for in regards to bringing Cora back...

What if there's more to the Astros' scandal that the public doesn't know about? Could the Red Sox put themselves in a position where they bring Cora back to manage the team, and then in the middle of next season, a story drops that makes them look terrible for bringing him back so quickly?

Another sign stealing story? I legitimately don't care. I am so over that nonsense. By the way I really don't even care about bringing Cora back unless you think he gets the most out of guys like Bogaerts, Devers and ERod.

No active players can be punished without a grievance and everyone knows Cora was stealing sign's. I don't think there is that much more info that can come out that will effect anything.

 

[Gator Mike]

The MLB investigated it pretty thoroughly, and it's pretty much confirmed that the idea came from rogue replay room operators with Luhnow's blessing and that Cora and Beltran helped coordinate it on the baseball end of things and both were thrown under the bus by that organization and its players because they were easy targets once they left for new jobs.

Theoretically, what if it came out that Altuve was wearing a buzzer at the plate (...as has been speculated) when he hit that home run off Chapman to win the pennant, and that it was Cora's idea and Hinch didn't know about it?

 

[CharaBadSenyshynGawd]

Theoretically, what if it came out that Altuve was wearing a buzzer at the plate (...as has been speculated) when he hit that home run off Chapman to win the pennant, and that it was Cora's idea and Hinch didn't know about it?

Just can’t imagine how or why that would be uncovered now after the months long investigations.

maybe if they cut ties with Verlander and his wife goes off the rails

 

[McGarnagle]

Theoretically, what if it came out that Altuve was wearing a buzzer at the plate (...as has been speculated) when he hit that home run off Chapman to win the pennant, and that it was Cora's idea and Hinch didn't know about it?

Alex Cora was managing the Red Sox by the time Altuve hit that walkoff in the 2019 ALCS.

 

[McGarnagle]

Just can’t imagine how or why that would be uncovered now after the months long investigations.

maybe if they cut ties with Verlander and his wife goes off the rails

To me the worst part of the whole Astros hitting scandal is the fact that everyone ignores that their pitchers were absolutely doctoring balls as well and nobody has said a peep about it other than Trevor Bauer.