Crosby ALLTIME rank before start of '19-'20 season

[JimmyTwoTimes]

People need to look at more than just the video game stats with Mario.

He simply didn't tilt the ice as much as his stats and skill indicate.

Just look at his ESGF/ESGA ratios, they just aren't as impressive as one would think.

He averaged 2 points per game(higher than Gretzky) when he first retired. Him coming back at an older age as owner of the team(lol) brought that number down to 1.883 per game. Which is barely less than Wayne. And that's with Mario's injuries...back issues...Hodgkins.


NHL All-Time Points Leaders

To do what he did in less than 1000 games is ridiculous.. And he didnt have Messier, Kurri, Coffey, etc in their prime to start his career. He turned guys like Robbie Brown into a 100 point scorer.

Same with Sid. Hes done way more with much less. Wingers like Dupuis, Kunitz, and constant grinder types over the years. Finally has someone like Guentzel. I keep hearing Oilers fans say they dont win cuz they dont have wingers....Pens didnt either and they beat the 2009 Wings. With Crosby, Malkin, Staal down the middle. Still wondering why Oilers refuse to take Drai off of Conners line. That was the only time they made the playoffs. When centering their own lines. Cant be cuz of numbers right? Also the Oilers have Neal now...8 goals. Still cant seperate Conner and Drai? Pens had wingers like Talbot, Kennedy, Cooke...etc. Not exactly elite . Oilers have McDavid, Drai, and RNH. Now added Neal who can obviously still score.

And other lines like Avs,Flames, Bruins, etc all stacking their top lines too. Then wonder why they get shutdown eventually. Malkin could have always been a winger on Sids line...thats not how they wanted to win. They went with the 2 line advantage instead, but that also requires risk since that Center has to make it work with whatever wingers they are provided with. And it was musical wingers early on for those two. Yet get to cup and lose to an amazing Wings team in 6 games...then beat them the following year.

How they are compared at their age now to the young players today is beyond me. I don't see any of the top duos winning cups. None of them could match Crosby/Malkin at that age. And Crosby is still keeping up with the 22 year olds at age 32. And thats with him missing his whole peak due to concussions

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Can we retire the "Lemieux had a higher PPG argument when he first retired" argument?

Yes, it's literally true. It's also completely misleading. Lemieux first retired at age 31. Gretzky retired at age 38. You can't compare their PPG when they were seven years apart and draw any meaningful conclusion.

At the end of the years when they turned 31, Gretzky scored more points per game - 2.27 vs 2.01. Gretzky had a slight advantage of having more of his years in a higher-scoring era but I don't think it's enough to make up the difference.

At every age, Gretzky had a higher career points per game than Lemieux. Compare their career PPG at age 21, or 28, or 31, or 37, or any other age - Gretzky is ahead in every case.

The only argument for Lemieux is points per game, and Gretzky still ended up ahead for their entire careers - incredible considering that Lemieux played only 170 games after age 31 (19% of his career games) while Gretzky played 488 (33%).

 

[Mrb1p]

4th overall but he cant go any higher.

 

[Mrb1p]

People need to look at more than just the video game stats with Mario.

He simply didn't tilt the ice as much as his stats and skill indicate.

Just look at his ESGF/ESGA ratios, they just aren't as impressive as one would think.

Jesys thats the stupidest thing Ive ever read in my entire internet career. Can you even imagine how stupid that is?

 

[wetcoast]

Jesys thats the stupidest thing Ive ever read in my entire internet career. Can you even imagine how stupid that is?

Ya you're right scoring 7 goals while giving up 8 is way better than scoring 8 and giving up 6 goals.

Um no it's not the ESGG/ESGA is out there and it's not kind to Mario.

In real NHL terms of evaluating and comparing players that matters but not in fantasy pools.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

The most popular option is outside the top 10.

Which simply ascribes more to my hockey fans need to take the nostalgia goggles off sometimes theory. Crosby is top 10 right now, it's crazy to say he isn't. He's more accomplished than other players considered in it and eye test wise he's just absolutely better in a better era of hockey.

And again, Ovechkin is in the top 10 as well right behind Crosby.

 

[illpucks]

Players that received top-10 votes in the HOH Top-100 list:

Tier 1: Majority support for 1st
Tier 2: Majority support for top-5
Tier 3: Majority support for top-10
Tier 4: Minority support for top-10

Gretzky
Howe, Lemieux, Orr
Beliveau, Harvey, Hull, Richard, Roy
Bourque, Crosby, Hasek, Messier, Mikita, Morenz, Shore​

No Jagr?

 

[Mrb1p]

Ya you're right scoring 7 goals while giving up 8 is way better than scoring 8 and giving up 6 goals.

Um no it's not the ESGG/ESGA is out there and it's not kind to Mario.

In real NHL terms of evaluating and comparing players that matters but not in fantasy pools.

Lol, this never happened though, when Lemieux was on the ice, he had the puck, not the other way around.

 

[wetcoast]

Lol, this never happened though, when Lemieux was on the ice, he had the puck, not the other way around.

I'm on my phone right now but it's easy to reference the data from hockey reference but going from memory is 95-96 mario was 10th on the Pens in Plus/minus having a plus 10 despite scoring 161 points that year.

For a top 4 player of all time his EDGF/ESGA and Ron Roff numbers are really underwhelming.

Even more so if he had the puck all the time, which he clearly didn't.

 

[Lebowski]

Players that received top-10 votes in the HOH Top-100 list:

Tier 1: Majority support for 1st
Tier 2: Majority support for top-5
Tier 3: Majority support for top-10
Tier 4: Minority support for top-10

Gretzky
Howe, Lemieux, Orr
Beliveau, Harvey, Hull, Richard, Roy
Bourque, Crosby, Hasek, Messier, Mikita, Morenz, Shore​

I don't see what Crosby and Hasek lack on the guys from tier 3?

Jagr should also be somewhere in there.

The most popular option is outside the top 10.

72.9% place him within the top 10 to the 28,1% placing him outside of it.

 

[Mrb1p]

I don't see what Crosby and Hasek lack on the guys from tier 3?

Jagr should also be somewhere in there.



72.9% place him within the top 10 to the 28,1% placing him outside of it.

Theyre just not born in the right era.

 

[nowhereman]

How is "outside of the top 10" winning, lol?

Wow.

Guy is guaranteed top 10, bordering top 5. Oh, HFBoards...

 

[Lebowski]

How is "outside of the top 10" winning, lol?

Wow.

Guy is guaranteed top 10, bordering top 5. Oh, HFBoards...

There's 28% voting for outside the top 10.

Everyone else is voting for a given position inside the top 10.

Meaning most people have him in their top 10.