Crosby ALLTIME rank before start of '19-'20 season

[KoozNetsOff 92]

On par in what way? He arguably has the 5th best resume at age 31 all-time and has been as dominant offensively as Howe was in his prime save for missing time.

Being behind only Hull and Beliveau for forwards is the only reasonable rating IMO.

Give it a rest.

 

[daver]

Same number of Harts, Mikita edges him in 1st AST's and scoring titles, Mikita has more top 10 goal finishes, Crosby beats him in scoring finishes by 1 (but I believe Mikita has higher overall finishes), Smythe is a wash since it wasn't around when he won his cup, international accolades are irrelevant since it wasn't possible for Mikita to play in the WHC/Olympics.

So playoff resumes are a wash then?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

There's an obvious bias against defensemen for that type of conversation, so many people just simply can't look past overall points regardless of the context. Orr only won 3 Hart trophies in that insane 6 year stretch he had, that should tell you all you need to know.

You are correct, voters are biased towards more impactful players in forwards.

 

[pcruz]

Clearly first of all time.
Hockey has only been a real thing since 2004 anyway.

 

[Trap Jesus]

You are correct, voters are biased towards more impactful players in forwards.

When you win the scoring title as a D-man and finish 3rd in Hart voting. Was Esposito better than Orr in your opinion?

1974-75 NHL Awards Voting | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[bambamcam4ever]

When you win the scoring title as a D-man and finish 3rd in Hart voting. Was Esposito better than Orr in your opinion?

1974-75 NHL Awards Voting | Hockey-Reference.com

No, but you were taking about Dmen in general.

 

[Trap Jesus]

No, but you were taking about Dmen in general.

What's the difference? Obviously something like that shows there's ridiculous bias. Like how do you even equate how good Lidstrom was? I thought he was the best player in the early 2000s, but even outside of that it's how high of a level he played at for his entire career.

 

[Thenameless]

That's not the way to look at it though, you just have to look at their overall body of work. There's no issue reasonably projecting Crosby as better as his career moves on but if you're stopping it dead in its tracks right now, those two defensemen have a more extensive body of work. Bourque and Lidstrom both played over 1,500 games at a ridiculous level, Crosby isn't at 950 yet.

I agree that the two defensemen have a larger body of work at an extremely high level of play - awesome career value. Having said that, it's also not an unreasonable thing to say that Crosby peaked higher, and has generally been considered the best player of his era while the other two were not.

 

[psycat]

Behind the big 4+ Jagr, Hasek, Bourque. Debatable: Roy, Lidström, Ovechkin, Harvey, Shore, Beliveau and probably a couple more.(Don't know enough about Mikita but he seems to stack up pretty well, LaFleur obviously depending on how much you value peak, Esposito is very underrated in my book, not sure how to rank Makarov, Kharlamov and the likes etc)

So anywhere between 8 and something like 20. That's where he will stay for me unless he muster out a peak superior to the one he already had, which at the state of his career seems unlikely obviously.

 

[dr robbie]

I think he's squeaked into the top 10 for me. 9-10. Bourque-ish area.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Around 12-15.

 

[wetcoast]

Same number of Harts, Mikita edges him in 1st AST's and scoring titles, Mikita has more top 10 goal finishes, Crosby beats him in scoring finishes by 1 (but I believe Mikita has higher overall finishes), Smythe is a wash since it wasn't around when he won his cup, international accolades are irrelevant since it wasn't possible for Mikita to play in the WHC/Olympics.

I love Mikita and think he is under rated but he finishes 9 times in the top 10 in scoring, Crosby has done that 11 times already.

Crosby also has the edge in the playoffs, although to be fair Mikita was pretty good there as well.

 

[Voight]

So playoff resumes are a wash then?

Thats clearly not what I said. Reading comprehension 101.

Sid's playoff stats are a bit better than Mikita (also need to take into account playoff runs were shorter in Mikita's time tho, I.E. less time to rack up points). My point was, can't exactly hold not winning a CS against Mikita when the award was introduced after he won the cup.

Point is, they are on par with each other.

 

[bobholly39]

When you win the scoring title as a D-man and finish 3rd in Hart voting. Was Esposito better than Orr in your opinion?

1974-75 NHL Awards Voting | Hockey-Reference.com

It sounds like your initial point about voter bias against hart for defensemen was about Bourque and Lidstrom, and not Orr. I tend to agree there, there is bias. I still don't think either of them should have won a hart though (maybe Bourque, once), and it's something that sets Crosby apart from them.

But - about Orr - the idea that there was voter bias against him winning a hart makes absolutely no sense. Voter fatigue? Maybe - but not bias against defensemen. He won 3 straight harts - and it's only after that that he lost 3 of them (finishing 3rd). Any bias voters had against defensemen were ended when he won those 3 harts. Maybe by 6-10 years after Orr, voters slowly built their bias back up against D and started giving them less votes for Hart (cue in Bourque) - but at the time this wasn't the case.

Look at Hasek in the 90s. There was bias against goalies winning the hart....but then he DID. Great. He even did it again, he was so good. By then - voters were open to voting goalies for hart. That lasted a few years. Same idea here with Orr in 1975.

 

[bobholly39]

What's the difference? Obviously something like that shows there's ridiculous bias. Like how do you even equate how good Lidstrom was? I thought he was the best player in the early 2000s, but even outside of that it's how high of a level he played at for his entire career.

When was he the actual best player though? Crosby is both the best player of his generation, and also has been best player in the world (or co-best) most individual years of his career.

In the early 2000s, you had Jagr, Hasek, Lemieux, Forsberg even Sakic who I feel were all better than Lidstrom in some years. I can't point to a single season where he was the best, or even "co-best" player. Crosby has like 12 of those.

 

[daver]

Thats clearly not what I said. Reading comprehension 101.

Sid's playoff stats are a bit better than Mikita (also need to take into account playoff runs were shorter in Mikita's time tho, I.E. less time to rack up points). My point was, can't exactly hold not winning a CS against Mikita when the award was introduced after he won the cup.

Point is, they are on par with each other.

What forwards do you have ahead of Mikita and why?

 

[ohheyhemsky]

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
Jagr
Hasek
Crosby

I ranked him 7th.

 

[Voight]

When was he the actual best player though? Crosby is both the best player of his generation, and also has been best player in the world (or co-best) most individual years of his career.

In the early 2000s, you had Jagr, Hasek, Lemieux, Forsberg even Sakic who I feel were all better than Lidstrom in some years. I can't point to a single season where he was the best, or even "co-best" player. Crosby has like 12 of those.

Thats for update. Its not like how everyone pretty much universally agrees Gretzky was the best player of the 80s.

 

[Saltcreek]

Id have him behind:

Gretzky
Lemieux
Bossy
Orr
Dionne
Howe
Bourque
Hasek

To me he is in that tier with guys like Yzerman, Sakic, Francis for now.

I agree with this.

 

[newfy]

Remember when Lidstrom or Bourque were considered the best player in the league? Me neither.

Voters are really biased towards forwards though and point totals. I think you would get an argument that Lidstrom was the best player in the league in the early 2000s. Bourque had tougher head to head matchups with Wayne and Mario so thats pretty irrelevant anyways. If you remove the Norris trophy, Bourque or Lidstrom would've won some hart trophies between them without a doubt

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
Roy
Crosby
Beliveau
Jagr
Hull
Lidstrom

HM: Ovechkin, Hasek, Harvey, Bourque

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

When was he the actual best player though? Crosby is both the best player of his generation, and also has been best player in the world (or co-best) most individual years of his career.

In the early 2000s, you had Jagr, Hasek, Lemieux, Forsberg even Sakic who I feel were all better than Lidstrom in some years. I can't point to a single season where he was the best, or even "co-best" player. Crosby has like 12 of those.

I agree Lidstrom was never the best player in any season, but that's bs for Crosby and you know it.

05/06: Jagr/Thornton
06/07: Crosby
07/08: Ovechkin
08/09: Ovechkin
09/10: Ovechkin
10/11: Sedin? Crosby only had 40 GP
11/12: Malkin
12/13: Crosby
13/14: Crosby
14/15: Ovechkin
15/16: Kane
16/17: McDavid
17/18: McDavid
18/19: Kucherov

That's 3 seasons, not sure where you're getting "like 12" from.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

I currently have him 8th and Ovechkin at 9th with both moving up the rankings by the time their careers are over. At this point Crosby has a strong chance to get into fifth, Ovechkin will need another Cup to make much headway. Simply put, Sidney Crosby is one of the greatest players ever and both players have carried the league, living up to pretty much every expectation heaped upon them when they entered it. We're lucky as fans to get to watch, cheer for or against Crosby.

 

[wetcoast]

Thats clearly not what I said. Reading comprehension 101.

Sid's playoff stats are a bit better than Mikita (also need to take into account playoff runs were shorter in Mikita's time tho, I.E. less time to rack up points). My point was, can't exactly hold not winning a CS against Mikita when the award was introduced after he won the cup.

Point is, they are on par with each other.

I don't think that Mikita would have more than 1 Conn Smythe even if the trophy was around back then.

Here are the stats for both guys

Mikita 155-59-91-150
Crosby 164-66-120-186

It's pretty clear that Crosby has the far better playoff resume.

 

[wetcoast]

I agree Lidstrom was never the best player in any season, but that's bs for Crosby and you know it.

05/06: Jagr/Thornton
06/07: Crosby
07/08: Ovechkin
08/09: Ovechkin
09/10: Ovechkin Hart voting that year H.Sedin 894, Ovechkin 834, Crosby 729
10/11: Sedin? Crosby only had 40 GP no one seriously was saying Daniel sedin is the best player in the world that year were they?
11/12: Malkin
12/13: Crosby
13/14: Crosby
14/15: Ovechkin Carey Price?
15/16: Kane
16/17: McDavid McDavid won the Hart but Crosby was second, not sure if the torch really had been passed that year
17/18: McDavid MCdavid won the Art Ross but was 5th in Hart voting but to be fair Crosby had a down year with 89 points finishing 10th in the NHL.
18/19: Kucherov

That's 3 seasons, not sure where you're getting "like 12" from.

Some comments in bold for your quote.