Craig Button's 2010 re-draft

Kaoz*

Guest
I said Hall played against other team's top players, is Chara not one of Boston's top players? He led Boston's defence in points. Hall also played 12 shifts against Boston's second line.

I also think it says a lot that when Edmonton had last change, we chose to play Strudwick and Foster against Seguin. We obviously weren't afraid of him.

*sigh*

This is getting to be a little mundane. Regardless of the proof I present you will be saying whatever you have to say to support your argument. I gave you a direct link that shows Hall isn't put out there against teams top players, not when it comes to forwards and not when it comes to defense. Was he on the ice at times when Chara was? Yes, if you play in a teams top 9 you can lay claim to that one, the man plays half the game. Did Julien attempt to match Chara against him? No. Did Renney try to match Hall against Boston's top line? No.

In terms of D, Renney got him out there as often as possible against Boston's 3rd pair, McQuaid and Kaberle... which is a smart coaching move. In terms of forward line matchups, there really weren't any. Hall played against both the 2nd and 3rd line throughout the game fairly evenly.

So the whole "but Hall played against top players" is just a fabrication in order to paint Hall again as the awesomest. He wasn't held to the same standard Seguin was in terms of defensive responsibility, and that is reflected in how they each progressed throughout the season both defensively and offensively.

Again, I'm not trying to slam Hall, kids awesome. The slamming of Seguin based on offensive totals he was never going to be able to reach is pathetic though. They were brought along in two different systems, and Seguins focus in order to get playing time was on his defensive game, and fitting into Boston's system, a strict defensive system compared to others including Edmonton. He was obviously able to do that. Hall came into a system which allowed for the normal deficiencies young players arrive in the league with, both Julien and even Hall himself pointed this out both before and after the Bruins Oilers games.

It is what it is, and really all I got to say on it.
 

Mc5RingsAndABeer

5-14-6-1
May 25, 2011
20,184
1,385
Why the heck are we discussing a single game? The sample size of one game is so small that any stats derived from it are almost completely useless.
 

Korpse

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 5, 2010
20,776
9,615
stunned when seguin went ahead of hall..... honestly 2 good playoff games and button thinks hes a god.

If you did a little research you would find out that button had seguin ranked #1 last year so it's not really a shock. THe two games displayed his potential what he can be. The problem with most young players in a the firs few years is consistancy, Seguin was no different. He struggled with consistancy and as a result wasn't able to get the ice time on a deep team.
 

eberlehall*

Guest
If you did a little research you would find out that button had seguin ranked #1 last year so it's not really a shock. THe two games displayed his potential what he can be. The problem with most young players in a the firs few years is consistancy, Seguin was no different. He struggled with consistancy and as a result wasn't able to get the ice time on a deep team.

2/90 games he played well interesting....
 

thrillhous

Registered User
Jan 5, 2006
3,617
810
So Button would take Seguin 1st. Can't imagine many others would. Big surprise - it's Button.
 

Korpse

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 5, 2010
20,776
9,615
2/90 games he played well interesting....

He played well in more than two games. Don't be so ignorant.

Btw I think hall is and will be the better player but I get what Button said. Everyone acts like children when someone in the media says something they disagree with. Have an open mind, try to understand the reasoning. You don't have to agree with it but don't act so childish.
 

tsnTpoint

Registered User
Apr 2, 2010
1,149
160
He played well in more than two games. Don't be so ignorant.

Btw I think hall is and will be the better player but I get what Button said. Everyone acts like children when someone in the media says something they disagree with. Have an open mind, try to understand the reasoning. You don't have to agree with it but don't act so childish.

This is not "just" someone in the media. This is an ex G.M. and a so called "hockey expert".


This Button character is just one big face-palm of the hockey world. Stop defending the guy when everything that comes out of his mouth is absolute trash.


Anyone who is dumb enough to actually think that Seguin has warranted being picked first ahead of Hall belongs in that 70 IQ bus with Button.
 
Last edited:

Kaoz*

Guest

Spent the majority of the night going up against Weber and Suter.
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20948&submit=Go
Yea, if you consider the "majority" the first 20 minutes. The last 40 he was out there against the lower pairings

Head to head with Seabrook
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20814&submit=Go
You mean Hjamarlsson and Seabrook right? Hardly saw a shift against the Keith pairing.

Marc Staal
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20244&submit=Go
Yes sir, he did. In fact, the Rangers respected Edmonton and Hall so much they started Martin Biron against them.

Up against Doughty(especially late in the game)
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20768&submit=Go
Love the caveat "especially late in the game", because it obviously wasn't the case for the other 2/3rds when he went up against Scuderi/Johnson. Maybe it has something to do with Hall playing with Hemsky that game?

Hamhuis and Bieksa
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20610&submit=Go
And yet Vigneault respected his line by putting the Sedins out against him. No wait, I don't mean respected, I mean exploited. Oh, and they started their backup. R.E.S.P.E.C.T. Also, you'll notice this is another game where they tried Hall with Hemsky

Lidstrom
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20589&submit=Go
Another good pick, although Renney had last change again, looks more like an attempt by Renney to keep Hemsky away from Lidstrom then it wass Babcock trying to match the two... and another game where they started their backup against them.

Regehr and JayBo until the 3rd period
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20572&submit=Go
Until the 2nd and 3rd period you mean? And again, home team gets last change.

Bieksa and Hamhuis again
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20528&submit=Go
This one is true, And again, the respect factor was obviously there considering Vancouver started their 2nd string goalie... again

I think you get the point... but just in case, there was what, 3 games in that mess where actual top pairings went against Hall with any consistency? 1 where the Edmonton wasn't the home team and he wasn't paired up with Hemsky? Hardly showing a ton of respect to the kid, and this playing against most teams backup goalies.

And before we go too far down this road, I'm not slamming Hall. That's exactly what should be happening. Teams are going to be starting their backups against the Oilers, teams are going to be throwing their top pairings out against Hemsky when they get a chance, not Hall. Yes, it's occasionally going to happen against Hall, because lets face it, beyond Hemsky there isn't exactly much to worry about on that roster, but no one is worried about matching up against him. Put him on a team like Boston, Detroit, Vancouver, San Jose, Chicago, etc... and he's an after thought much like Seguin was.

Two great great young players with similar ceilings, two completely different ways to bring them along. Not quite a shocker that some folks would still take Seguin over Hall, it isn't the end of the world or a big diss on Taylor so people should stop making out like it is based on how many goals and assists Tyler got this season. Personally, I think more people still take Hall, just in this particular case that didn't happen.
 

GloryDaze4877

Barely Irrelevant
Jun 27, 2006
44,395
13,873
The Sticks (West MA)
No kidding. I like the Bruins and was ecstatic when they beat the Canucks but some of them are really coming off as incredibly smug in this thread.

Bottomline, Renney didn't let Hall run around with zero repercussions and he still had to earn his ice time despite the Oilers' putrid depth and injury problems. He was benched multiple times earlier in the year but low and behold, that stopped happening after the 40-45 game mark.

Button's rationales are a joke.

LOL

Yes, because B's fans are the ones that were on here pissing and moaning because an ex-GM dared to move Seguin ahead of Hall in a meaningless exercise for TSN.

OH-NO's Hall was dropped to #2 :scared:.

I have not seen any BOS fan say a negative word about Hall, and most I know would have been happy to have him don the Black n Gold. All I am trying to say that if Hall had ended up a Bruin, he would have likely gone through the same struggles that Seguin did adjusting to the B's strict defensive system. I also already said that I thought it was stupid for Button to move Seguin past Hall based on last season's performance. It seems that this is not enough for EDM fans, who apparently feel as if Hall needs to receive early entry into the HOF, while Seguin is labeled a bust??

Trying to use some wacky forward comparison chart to show that Hall would have been in the BOS Top 6 is absolutely asinine because the two teams play a completely different system and all the players involved put up those numbers for their respective teams. There is no way to determine accurately how many points Marchand would have had playing for EDM or how many Hemsky would have had in Boston, so the comparison is pretty meaningless. :shakehead
 

Wheatking

Registered User
Sep 25, 2006
15,945
71
Spent the majority of the night going up against Weber and Suter.
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20948&submit=Go
Yea, if you consider the "majority" the first 20 minutes. The last 40 he was out there against the lower pairings

Head to head with Seabrook
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20814&submit=Go
You mean Hjamarlsson and Seabrook right? Hardly saw a shift against the Keith pairing.

Marc Staal
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20244&submit=Go
Yes sir, he did. In fact, the Rangers respected Edmonton and Hall so much they started Martin Biron against them.

Up against Doughty(especially late in the game)
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20768&submit=Go
Love the caveat "especially late in the game", because it obviously wasn't the case for the other 2/3rds when he went up against Scuderi/Johnson. Maybe it has something to do with Hall playing with Hemsky that game?

Hamhuis and Bieksa
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20610&submit=Go
And yet Vigneault respected his line by putting the Sedins out against him. No wait, I don't mean respected, I mean exploited. Oh, and they started their backup. R.E.S.P.E.C.T. Also, you'll notice this is another game where they tried Hall with Hemsky

Lidstrom
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20589&submit=Go
Another good pick, although Renney had last change again, looks more like an attempt by Renney to keep Hemsky away from Lidstrom then it wass Babcock trying to match the two... and another game where they started their backup against them.

Regehr and JayBo until the 3rd period
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20572&submit=Go
Until the 2nd and 3rd period you mean? And again, home team gets last change.

Bieksa and Hamhuis again
http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20528&submit=Go
This one is true, And again, the respect factor was obviously there considering Vancouver started their 2nd string goalie... again

I think you get the point... but just in case, there was what, 3 games in that mess where actual top pairings went against Hall with any consistency? 1 where the Edmonton wasn't the home team and he wasn't paired up with Hemsky? Hardly showing a ton of respect to the kid, and this playing against most teams backup goalies.

And before we go too far down this road, I'm not slamming Hall. That's exactly what should be happening. Teams are going to be starting their backups against the Oilers, teams are going to be throwing their top pairings out against Hemsky when they get a chance, not Hall. Yes, it's occasionally going to happen against Hall, because lets face it, beyond Hemsky there isn't exactly much to worry about on that roster, but no one is worried about matching up against him. Put him on a team like Boston, Detroit, Vancouver, San Jose, Chicago, etc... and he's an after thought much like Seguin was.

Two great great young players with similar ceilings, two completely different ways to bring them along. Not quite a shocker that some folks would still take Seguin over Hall, it isn't the end of the world or a big diss on Taylor so people should stop making out like it is based on how many goals and assists Tyler got this season. Personally, I think more people still take Hall, just in this particular case that didn't happen.
I don't really understand why the back up being started is relevant. After all, the Oilers were easily the worst team in the league.The point wasn't whether or not the opposition respected him. Maybe it was Renney's choice to get Hemsky away from the top pairings so Hall would end up having to go against them at home...but he did go against them. Maybe he didn't spent every second of every game against the top pairings but for the most part that is who he was playing against. Lets not forget that he was the Oilers most dangerous player and Hemsky missed half the season.
The tone of your post suggests I'm picking and choosing games that made Hall look good. All I did was go down Hall's list of games and pick everyone where a top Dman in the league was playing so the names were more notable...and I don't know why you "love the late in the game" comment. That's just me trying to be more honest and not present it like Hall was matched up against them for the whole game. If anything, I'm taking away from my own argument by being more honest...and guys like Seabrook and Scuderi are good defensively so I don't know why you brought them up like Hall had an advantage against them.
 
Last edited:

Kaoz*

Guest
I don't really understand why the back up being started is relevant. After all, the Oilers were easily the worst team in the league.The point wasn't whether or not the opposition respected him. Maybe it was Renney's choice to get Hemsky away from the top pairings so Hall would end up having to go against them at home...but he did go against them. Maybe he didn't spent every second of every game against the top pairings but for the most part that is who he was playing against. Lets not forget that he was the Oilers most dangerous player and Hemsky missed half the season.
The tone of your post suggests I'm picking and choosing games that made Hall look good. All I did was go down Hall's list of games and pick everyone where a top Dman in the league was playing so the names were more notable...and I don't know why you "love the late in the game" comment. That's just me trying to be more honest and not present it like Hall was matched up against them for the whole game. If anything, I'm taking away from my own argument by being more honest...and guys like Seabrook and Scuderi are good defensively so I don't know why you brought them up like Hall had an advantage against them.

That's a whole lot of "you don't knows"...

To put this in perspective, My original comment:
"for some added interest, from what I saw of Hall late in the season before his injury, Seguin's defensive game is well ahead of Hall's at the moment."

The Reponse:
"What quality of opposition were Hall and Seguin playing against? Because the last time I checked, Hall was being matched up against other team's top players while Seguin was being matched up against bottom pairing defencemen and third and fourth line scrubs."

Hall wasn't being matched up against other teams best players.
 

Wheatking

Registered User
Sep 25, 2006
15,945
71
That's a whole lot of "you don't knows"...

To put this in perspective, My original comment:
"for some added interest, from what I saw of Hall late in the season before his injury, Seguin's defensive game is well ahead of Hall's at the moment."

The Reponse:
"What quality of opposition were Hall and Seguin playing against? Because the last time I checked, Hall was being matched up against other team's top players while Seguin was being matched up against bottom pairing defencemen and third and fourth line scrubs."

Hall wasn't being matched up against other teams best players.
Maybe that poster shouldn't have said "matched up" against the oppositions top Dmen but he did spend a ton of time against them. I think the circumstances that lead to those match ups are irrelevant. Maybe the other team liked the match up against Hall but it doesn't change that he was playing against them. More nights than not(especially late in the season), Hall was out there when the other team's top shutdown pairing were on the ice as well.
 

Kaoz*

Guest
Maybe that poster shouldn't have said "matched up" against the oppositions top Dmen but he did spend a ton of time against them. I think the circumstances that lead to those match ups are irrelevant. Maybe the other team liked the match up against Hall but it doesn't change that he was playing against them. More nights than not(especially late in the season), Hall was out there when the other team's top shutdown pairing were on the ice as well.

He was out there more then Seguin yes, but no one was matching their top defensive pairing against him and Renney sure as hell wasn't matching him against other teams top lines. The only way this would have any sort of relevance on the comment being discussed is if that were what was implied... and judging by the wording, it was.

End of the day, Seguin spent an entire year being coached pretty much solely on his defensive game, his positioning, fitting into the Bruins system. He's very responsible, fights along the walls, pinches low at opportune times, covers off his defensemen when they decide to pinch, and is almost always the first forward on his line back. He's come into his own defensively... from what I saw of Hall, there wasn't nearly as much importance put on that aspect of his game. He was obviously getting coached on it, but no way was he held to the same standards (which should be obvious).

These kids have been considered close in talent level for 2 years now, and that isn't going to change simply because they were drafted into two very different situations. Some will still rank Seguin higher, more imo will rank Hall higher.
 

Wheatking

Registered User
Sep 25, 2006
15,945
71
He was out there more then Seguin yes, but no one was matching their top defensive pairing against him and Renney sure as hell wasn't matching him against other teams top lines. The only way this would have any sort of relevance on the comment being discussed is if that were what was implied... and judging by the wording, it was.

End of the day, Seguin spent an entire year being coached pretty much solely on his defensive game, his positioning, fitting into the Bruins system. He's very responsible, fights along the walls, pinches low at opportune times, covers off his defensemen when they decide to pinch, and is almost always the first forward on his line back. He's come into his own defensively... from what I saw of Hall, there wasn't nearly as much importance put on that aspect of his game. He was obviously getting coached on it, but no way was he held to the same standards (which should be obvious).

These kids have been considered close in talent level for 2 years now, and that isn't going to change simply because they were drafted into two very different situations. Some will still rank Seguin higher, more imo will rank Hall higher.
We're just going to go in circles here. You're not saying much that I disagree with. I am really just trying to make one point and it's that Hall was our their against the oppositions top Dman a lot this season. I don't care about the circumstances that lead to those match ups.
 

oilsands

dirty oil, comin 4 u
Jul 6, 2007
5,073
58
Halland
I watched approximately a dozen Boston games (at least) during the year, and to me Seguin, while he didn't play much, wasn't really noticeable. He's young, he's got the skills to be an impact top-6 forward, give it time.

Hall, on the other hand is a machine. You noticed him on nearly every shift, and it is apparent to see that he is and will be a dominant player. His speed, his puck control at the top-end, his shot, his grit, his will-to-win, you don't see that in many of the top players in the league. There is no doubting what he is, or where he will be given his elite skills and motivation.

Stats aside, I don't know how anyone who has seen both players could pick Seguin. If you take Seguin, then you haven't watched Hall, it's as simple as that. Showing some poise and defensive awareness while toiling under a demanding coach in a limited role is one thing, turning into a complete animal and willing your team to win as a 19 year old, whether heading into the mouth of the dragon or blocking shots, is another.

If you want to use stats, well Hall has as many goals as Seguin had points, and Hall missed a quarter of the season.
 

eberlehall*

Guest
He was out there more then Seguin yes, but no one was matching their top defensive pairing against him and Renney sure as hell wasn't matching him against other teams top lines. The only way this would have any sort of relevance on the comment being discussed is if that were what was implied... and judging by the wording, it was.

End of the day, Seguin spent an entire year being coached pretty much solely on his defensive game, his positioning, fitting into the Bruins system. He's very responsible, fights along the walls, pinches low at opportune times, covers off his defensemen when they decide to pinch, and is almost always the first forward on his line back. He's come into his own defensively... from what I saw of Hall, there wasn't nearly as much importance put on that aspect of his game. He was obviously getting coached on it, but no way was he held to the same standards (which should be obvious).

These kids have been considered close in talent level for 2 years now, and that isn't going to change simply because they were drafted into two very different situations. Some will still rank Seguin higher, more imo will rank Hall higher.

I would say 95% would put Hall above Seguin, 100% if they watched them both play last year. Seguin's linemates are not as bad as people make them out to be at all. Hall would produce no matter the line, near the end of the season he was a game breaker and took over games. If you watched you would agree.

Even most homer Bruin fans would do the same. Button is a idiot who had Seguin ahead last year and because he does not want to look like a idiot he does it again. That is a horrible journalist.
 

Kaoz*

Guest
I would say 95% would put Hall above Seguin, 100% if they watched them both play last year. Seguin's linemates are not as bad as people make them out to be at all. Hall would produce no matter the line, near the end of the season he was a game breaker and took over games. If you watched you would agree.

Even most homer Bruin fans would do the same. Button is a idiot who had Seguin ahead last year and because he does not want to look like a idiot he does it again. That is a horrible journalist.

Totally, you should steal his job!

Wasn't the consensus among many scouts last year that Seguin would eventually be the better player? They idiots too? What if they said Skinner was a better pick then Hall? Especially after watching them both last season?

You see where I'm going with this. Give it time, it's year one and all those players were drafted into completely different situations, and we've hardly seen anything near the best any of them has to offer yet.
 

eberlehall*

Guest
Totally, you should steal his job!

Wasn't the consensus among many scouts last year that Seguin would eventually be the better player? They idiots too? What if they said Skinner was a better pick then Hall? Especially after watching them both last season?

You see where I'm going with this. Give it time, it's year one and all those players were drafted into completely different situations, and we've hardly seen anything near the best any of them has to offer yet.

No, consensus was that Hall was more ready. I would be less shocked if Skinner was above Hall.

Just curious did you watch much Hall last year near the end of his season? Be honest.
 

Jamin

Registered User
Aug 25, 2009
4,924
778
No, consensus was that Hall was more ready. I would be less shocked if Skinner was above Hall.

Just curious did you watch much Hall last year near the end of his season? Be honest.

He is too busy being anal. Someone said Hall was matched against the other teams top lines. Renney didnt line match once but the other teams were sending out their best against the Hall line. He then solely fixated on the word matched against.

He then went on a tangeant about line matching, another poster said it doesnt matter how the game played out just in the end that Hall faced the other teams top guns.

It makes sense if you watched a single Oiler game after Hemsky got injured. Who else would they be saving the first pairing dmen for. Jones? Vandevelde? Cogliano? Colin Fraser?
 

Kaoz*

Guest
He is too busy being anal. Someone said Hall was matched against the other teams top lines. Renney didnt line match once but the other teams were sending out their best against the Hall line. He then solely fixated on the word matched against.

He then went on a tangeant about line matching, another poster said it doesnt matter how the game played out just in the end that Hall faced the other teams top guns.

It makes sense if you watched a single Oiler game after Hemsky got injured. Who else would they be saving the first pairing dmen for. Jones? Vandevelde? Cogliano? Colin Fraser?

Anal? Might want to take a look in the mirror for that one. I'm not the one getting my panties in a twist because someone had the gall to rate my teams prospect lower then someone else's.

Also, you should pay more attention to the conversation, the reason "matching against other teams top players" is more then relevant, and worded specifically the way it was was because we were discussing defensive games. Obviously seeing far more time then a kid like Seguin did and playing on a higher line due to a lack of depth in front of him, Hall would see more top pairings then Seguin (though it's laughable to assume every team was worried about matching top pairings against him), but that's got little to do with his defensive game now does it. He also saw far more action against second string goalies then a kid like Seguin or even Skinner did as well, but again, that is neither here nor there.

As for how many games I watched, enough to form an opinion. Specifically, probably 10-15 full games and many more partial (NHLCI is a helluva drug). See, I like the Oilers. I like the kids coming in, I like their speed, and I like the fact that their lack of adherence to any real system combined with the low expectations really allow for some creative hockey to be played. It's refreshing.

Silly question... but how many did you watch? Not many if you don't realize Hemsky went down just 1 game before Hall did at the end of the season, or were you being extremely literal when you said "watched a single game" (cause there was only a single game I could of watched in which Hall played after Hemsky went down, get it, funny, I know).... and you're an Oiler fan?

You know what, nevermind, keep calling everyone an idiot, or a horrible journalist, or a braindead scout who suggests that the gap between Tyler and Taylor isn't all that far apart. Tyler ain't even mad...

Boston-Bruins-Stanley-Cup-Tyler-Seguin-Touch.jpg
 

Dominator13

Registered User
Feb 20, 2003
19,484
1,057
hockey city
Dominator13
Some of you guys need to wake up and finally figure out that Button had his re-draft based on max potential and not their current streaks or seasons. Seguin has a lot more tools in his toolbox then Hall does, Johanssen has the potential to be a 6'3 1st line center and Tinordi has the potential to be a 6'7 defensive beast with great skating. Only time will tell if Button is right and you guys are the joke.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad