Craig Button's 2010 re-draft

[Ninety7]

I guess we will never know...

It's good to know that in your mind, Hall would have put up huge numbers in Boston. Unfortunately, in Claude Julien's mind, rookies, particularly ones that need to be better defensively, must earn their TOI by showing they are not going to cost the team with defensive zone errors.

Don't see how Hall would have put up huge numbers while he was busy learning to be a complete player?

So I guess Seguin failed at getting better defensively since he consistently played... 11 or so minutes (not sure exact number) a game through every. Game. Of. The. Season? Is that what you're trying to say? Using yours or in this case "Claude Julien's" logic, rookies only get more time on the ice if they improve defensively, no? So does Seguin's constant benching mean that he didn't improve as the season went on? If that's the case then I think we all know who the better player is right now.

There must be other reasons Seguin was benched.

 

[eberlehall*]

Not too sure about that part, Seguin's skill package looks every bit as good, in this case it's a question of unlocking said skill package on a nightly basis. As for speed, please, did you not see how ridiculously quick Seguin is at top speed?

He is talking about March and but in either case Hall is faster then Seguin

 

[Kaoz*]

So I guess Seguin failed at getting better defensively since he consistently played... 11 or so minutes (not sure exact number) a game through every. Game. Of. The. Season? Is that what you're trying to say? Using yours or in this case "Claude Julien's" logic, rookies only get more time on the ice if they improve defensively, no? So does Seguin's constant benching mean that he didn't improve as the season went on? If that's the case then I think we all know who the better player is right now.

There must be other reasons Seguin was benched.

No, it means he was an 18/19 year old kid on a Stanley Cup Championship roster. He wasn't competing for a spot on the Oilers here, he was competing with older, stronger, more developed and more experienced players. There were no Jordan Eberle's, Magnus Paarjvi's to compete against for roster spots, Seguin is the only player on the Bruins that played last year in Junior. There were no Sam Gagner, Ryan Jones, Gilbert Brule, Andrew Cogliano or Colin Fraser level players to steal roster spots from.

Allow Claude to explain... http://www.mefeedia.com/video/34322773.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Who's been playing pro for 3 years now, in a system that mirrors Bostons. Hall wouldn't have broke into Boston's top 6, not because of a lack of skill but because his skill like every other 18 year olds is very raw and unrefined.

It's not a slight on Hall, but his defensive game and positioning are no where near up to par enough to play in Boston's top 6. Marchand had 2 years in Providence and near a full year in the NHL before he managed the feat.

Theres no way he would have played in the bottom six either. Boston doesn't exactly have the best wingers either. I can't imagine Hall wouldn't have been in the Bruins top 6 by the end of the season.

 

[Jamin]

Contributing to a Stanley Cup sure is more impressive than contributing to picking 1st overall for eternity.

Since apparently you and craig button missed it, the nhl is a team game. I hardly think seguin playing only 50% of games in the playoffs was the reason Boston won. But the NHL is what have you done for me lately, Seguin had 2 good games and 11 crappy ones but Hall is injured

 

[Jamin]

All true.

However, Seguin was a considerably shorter leash than both Skinner and Hall. One mistake for Seguin = benching. One mistake for either Hall or Skinner...nothing. Trust me, I saw both make normal rookie mistakes routinely and it didn't affect their ice time (lapses in defensive coverage, turnovers, etc.). Seguin, on the other hand, had to be flawless not to get his minutes cut.

That's why players like Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand, and Lucic have well-rounded games. Although Bergeron played a couple of years in the league before the arrival of Julien, he wasn't nearly as good defensively in '06 as he is right now.

Hall was benched as well

 

[Jamin]

I assume your a troll or child. Seguin is lucky to have had the chance to contribute just as Hall would have been lucky to contribute had Seguin been picked first. Their ability level and more importantly their potential are not reflective in how their team's did.



Obviously Hall's production was more impressive but no one should really be surprised he ended up ahead in points. He had more raw scoring ability and seemed to have a more NHL-ready body going into the draft. That being said I assume Hall had more TOI, more time on the PP and had more opportunity to step up offensively so the numbers are probably skewed slightly.



Seguin was not asked to prove he should have been picked over Hall. They wanted him to learn the defensive game that they covet so Julien put him on the third/fourth line for a majority of the season. Seguin was asked to try and do what he was uncomfortable with and it showed. Hall, on the other hand, was asked to produce offensively, something he has excelled at throughout his career. Also, I doubt Hall would have cracked the Bruins top 6, much less easily.



Too much stock should not be put into a player's rookie season, especially with players as young as these. People who have Seguin ahead now likely did last year as well. Taylor certainly looked great but Seguin showed plenty of raw ability. Its a draft for the future and players develop differently.


People need to remember this is one guys analysis. Its not the points or line number or skating ability that put Seguin in front of Hall in this guys eye's, its that in 10 years he thinks Seguin will be the better player.

Its a good thing you said doubt being as you are wrong.

http://oilersnation.com/2011/6/17/measuring-up-against-the-champions-edmonton-oilers-edition

Comparing Oilers to Boston and Vancouver. Both teams slay down the middle but looking at wingers Hall would fall behind Horton. Lucic and Marchand. I have my doubts Marchand will be god when the regular season resumes based on his 41 points. So for an 18 year old on the worst team by a mile playing with Horcoff he fares pretty well compared to Boston

 

[Jamin]

You realize he would play 3rd or 4th line minutes and almost no PP if he played for the Bruins..

Not according to even strength points per game he would be the Bruins second line left winger and fist line power play winger


http://oilersnation.com/2011/6/17/measuring-up-against-the-champions-edmonton-oilers-edition

 

[Jamin]

I disagreed with many of Button's choices, and don't even think he should have moved Seguin in front of Hall based on what happened in 2010-11, but your comment is ridiculous.

EDM was a last place team, which is why Hall was given free reign, a ton of icetime and PP opportunities. What exactly were all these "signs" that he would have cracked the Top 6 of a playoff team in Boston?

If the positions had been reversed at the draft, Seguin would have gotten a ton of TOI in EDM and probably scored 20+ goals, and Hall would have gotten the exact same treatment in Boston that Seguin did. His TOI would have been limited, the emphasis would have been turning him onto a 3 zone player, and he would have been punished for the same rookie mistakes Seguin made.

It will be a few years before anyone can determine who was the better pick. They were handled differently because they were in completely different situations, and neither approach was wrong. As a B's fan, I would like to think that having the luxury of teaching Seguin to be a more complete player will pay dividends down the road and make him the better all-around player eventually, but who knows?

http://oilersnation.com/2011/6/17/measuring-up-against-the-champions-edmonton-oilers-edition

 

[Wheatking]

Not according to even strength points per game he would be the Bruins second line left winger and fist line power play winger


http://oilersnation.com/2011/6/17/measuring-up-against-the-champions-edmonton-oilers-edition

...and if you don't want to use stats, you can just watch the player. Hall was a force for the final 40 games of the season. Better than stats would indicate considering he took some time to get his feet wet.

 

[Jamin]

...and if you don't want to use stats, you can just watch the player. Hall was a force for the final 40 games of the season. Better than stats would indicate considering he took some time to get his feet wet.

You dont have to tell me that. As a fan who missed the 80s Hemsky became my favorite player and when I was young it was Doug Weight. Hall is a player I have never seen before. Just completely dominating by the end of the season. Every rush was a chance. Its almost hard to explain what I mean, its just like there was a quality to his game that I have never seen an Oilers player have. On his best days getting 5 points against Columbus Hemsky never looked as dangerous as Hall was becoming

 

[biturbo19]

Hahaha. He sure does love him some Tinordi, doesn't he?

 

[Scouter]

Did you even read the post that you quoted or did you just take one sentence and decide to take it out of context? Again, as I mentioned in my original post...Horcoff would be a 3rd liner on most good teams in the league.

You either really love Horcoff and Eberle or you're playing stupid to make a point about Seguin. Hall didn't play with 1st line talent and Seguin didn't play solely with scrums. I'd say guys like Ryder, Recchi, Wheeler, Bergeron and Krejci are at worst on par with Eberle, Horcoff, Gagner and Cogliano.

Horc is a #2 guy now, he was a #1 guy in his prime.

Gagner and Cogs I agree aren't very good, Horc and Eberle are better.

 

[Kaoz*]

Theres no way he would have played in the bottom six either. Boston doesn't exactly have the best wingers either. I can't imagine Hall wouldn't have been in the Bruins top 6 by the end of the season.

Imagine it.... this thread would be going just with the names in reverse,

Funky numbers that are tweaked to show what you want aren't going to do it either, the fact that he's 19 and has no idea what to do in his own end in a system like Boston's is why he wouldn't be in the top 6. Period. It has nothing to do with how many points he can rack up, Seguin can rack em up as well... it's just a lot harder to get anything going when you get 2 or 3 shifts a period which completely nullifies the points per 60 minutes stat.

As an aside, what is it with some Oilers fans skewing numbers to try and prove how great their players are? Is it a certain blogger or columnist that elicits this mentality? We saw it with guys like Grebeshkov, Hemsky, Penner, and now guys like Hall.

Just use common sense. Oh, and for some added interest, from what I saw of Hall late in the season before his injury, Seguin's defensive game is well ahead of Hall's at the moment. Were you to make a straight trade right now, Hall wouldn't crack Boston's top 6 next year either because of that deficiency even though he may hit 30 and 30 or better on the Oilers.

 

[OilerTyler]

Imagine it.... this thread would be going just with the names in reverse,

Funky numbers that are tweaked to show what you want aren't going to do it either, the fact that he's 19 and has no idea what to do in his own end in a system like Boston's is why he wouldn't be in the top 6. Period. It has nothing to do with how many points he can rack up, Seguin can rack em up as well... it's just a lot harder to get anything going when you get 2 or 3 shifts a period which completely nullifies the points per 60 minutes stat.

As an aside, what is it with some Oilers fans skewing numbers to try and prove how great their players are? Is it a certain blogger or columnist that elicits this mentality? We saw it with guys like Grebeshkov, Hemsky, Penner, and now guys like Hall.

Just use common sense. Oh, and for some added interest, from what I saw of Hall late in the season before his injury, Seguin's defensive game is well ahead of Hall's at the moment. Were you to make a straight trade right now, Hall wouldn't crack Boston's top 6 next year either because of that deficiency even though he may hit 30 and 30 or better on the Oilers.

What quality of opposition were Hall and Seguin playing against? Because the last time I checked, Hall was being matched up against other team's top players while Seguin was being matched up against bottom pairing defencemen and third and fourth line scrubs.

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

Oh man the anti-Hall hate is hilarious. You can argue Skinner > Seguin easier than you can argue Seguin > Hall.

Sounds like another case of

 

[Kaoz*]

What quality of opposition were Hall and Seguin playing against? Because the last time I checked, Hall was being matched up against other team's top players while Seguin was being matched up against bottom pairing defencemen and third and fourth line scrubs.

Lol what? No, he wasn't.

http://www.timeonice.com/default.html?GameNumber=20938&submit=Go
Just as an example.

 

[OilerTyler]

I'm not going to spend all day lining players up, but it looks like Hall played against Chara and Boychuk on 13 of his 22 shifts while Seguin played against Strudwick and Foster on 10 of his 14 shifts.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Kaoz*]

I'm not going to spend all day lining players up, but it looks like Hall played against Chara and Boychuk on 13 of his 22 shifts while Seguin played against Strudwick and Foster on 10 of his 14 shifts.

Thanks for proving my point.

I think you should read your own post again, the one that said he was put out there against other teams top lines. He played 2 of his 22 shifts against Boston's top line, and that was at home, so if Renney wanted to play him against Boston's top line, he would have.

You can also see pretty quickly, that it wasn't Julien putting Chara out there against Hall.

So yea... pretty much the exact opposite of what your point was, but don't let that stop ya. I looked at more then just this one game as well, and that was pretty much par for the course.

 

[OilerTyler]

I said Hall played against other team's top players, is Chara not one of Boston's top players? He led Boston's defence in points. Hall also played 12 shifts against Boston's second line.

I also think it says a lot that when Edmonton had last change, we chose to play Strudwick and Foster against Seguin. We obviously weren't afraid of him.

 

[saillias]

Didn't he start the tear down of Calgary after the 89 cup ?

That honor goes to Doug Risebrough. (1991-1995) Al Coates (95-00) and Button (00-03) just dragged the org through the mud some more

 

[Moonlapse Vertigo]

Are Boston fans just assuming that Renney let Hall make as many defensive mistakes as he wanted without any repercussions?

Hall was benched multiple times.

This.

 

[MS]

For my money, Hall and Seguin are still neck-and-neck as excellent young players and very difficult to separate. The situations they were in were completely different and Hall was always going to get much more quality/PP icetime than Seguin, regardless of relative performance. I would probably take Hall by a slight margin, but I have no issue with someone rating Seguin ahead at this point.

Tinordi ahead of Gudbranson, on the other hand, is just utterly ridiculous.

Button's 2009 list isn't *that* unreasonable but the 2010 one is highly suspect.

 

[Moonlapse Vertigo]

Oh man the anti-Hall hate is hilarious. You can argue Skinner > Seguin easier than you can argue Seguin > Hall.

Sounds like another case of

No kidding. I like the Bruins and was ecstatic when they beat the Canucks but some of them are really coming off as incredibly smug in this thread.

Bottomline, Renney didn't let Hall run around with zero repercussions and he still had to earn his ice time despite the Oilers' putrid depth and injury problems. He was benched multiple times earlier in the year but low and behold, that stopped happening after the 40-45 game mark.

Button's rationales are a joke.

 

[OilersPride04]

stunned when seguin went ahead of hall..... honestly 2 good playoff games and button thinks hes a god.