Rumor: Coyotes still in market for Top 4 defenceman

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

Look at what Yandle returned from the Rangers. Now cut that in half. You've found Shattenkirk's value. Stop believing you're going to get one of the best prospects in the world.

I disagree. Shattenkirk is younger, significantly better, and is right-handed. I would argue that Shattenkirk gets similar value - and definitely not significantly less value than Yandle.

 

[Kaibur]

If they can't get this bigger deal done that Morgan is hinting about, I wouldn't be surprised for Tippett to lean on Z early until Stone is fully recovered. Look at Z's icetime the last 7 games of the season. Averaging nearly 21 minutes per game. Z is declining, but I don't think Tip's afraid to use him if need be.

 

[Bluesman]

Look at what Yandle returned from the Rangers. Now cut that in half. You've found Shattenkirk's value. Stop believing you're going to get one of the best prospects in the world.

LOL. A younger, extended Shatty is going to return half of what Yandle did? Yea that makes sense...

It's amazing that no matter how many trades happen that shatter the illusion of what HF posters thinks players are worth, they continue to posture and authoritatively state that which they are ****ing clueless about.

 

[rt]

I disagree. Shattenkirk is younger, significantly better, and is right-handed. I would argue that Shattenkirk gets similar value - and definitely not significantly less value than Yandle.

Significantly better? Significantly? No. Maybe marginally. Maybe.

Younger? Nope. Yandle was 27.5 when he got traded. Same as Shattenkirk is now.

Right handed? Yep. That's probably worth a little something. Got me there.

The key difference is that Yandle wasn't a rental. New York got him just before the deadline, which means they got a playoff run, a full regular season, and another playoff run out of him. They paid double deadline price. Which was a very late 2nd in the next draft, a very late first in a future draft, a prospect(Duclair who was not as highly regarded then as he is today) and a warm body nobody cared about (Moore).

Today's equivalent return would be a 2017 50-60th pick, a 2018 20-30th pick, a B+ prospect and a warm body. Shattenkirk gives the acquiring team significantly less utility however because he's on an expiring contract, whereas Yandle wasn't. That probably drops either the prospect or late first.

 

[rt]

LOL. A younger, extended Shatty is going to return half of what Yandle did? Yea that makes sense...

It's amazing that no matter how many trades happen that shatter the illusion of what HF posters thinks players are worth, they continue to posture and authoritatively state that which they are ****ing clueless about.

1. Yandle at the time of his trade was 27 and a half. How old is Shattenkirk? Yeah, not younger.

2. At the time, Yandle was pacing at .65ppg, and had put up .65ppg in the two seasons preceding. He was also riding an ironman streak and was one of the most consistently healthy top D in the league. He also put up those gaudy numbers playing for lousy, offensively starved Phoenix squads with little support. His career points per game at the time was almost the same as Shattenkirk. Shattenkirk had had the benefit of always playing on playoff teams with tons of talent. He also doesn't have the track record of constant health.

3. Shattenkirk is extended? I hadn't heard that? What's the contract look like? That's really big news you just broke. You're more connected than the insiders, I guess.

 

[rt]

Keith Yandle in February of 2015 is clearly much more valuable than Kevin Shattenkirk in August of 2016.

 

[tfriede2]

1. Yandle at the time of his trade was 27 and a half. How old is Shattenkirk? Yeah, not younger.

2. At the time, Yandle was pacing at .65ppg, and had put up .65ppg in the two seasons preceding. He was also riding an ironman streak and was one of the most consistently healthy top D in the league. He also put up those gaudy numbers playing for lousy, offensively starved Phoenix squads with little support. His career points per game at the time was almost the same as Shattenkirk. Shattenkirk had had the benefit of always playing on playoff teams with tons of talent. He also doesn't have the track record of constant health.

3. Shattenkirk is extended? I hadn't heard that? What's the contract look like? That's really big news you just broke. You're more connected than the insiders, I guess.

They were referencing Shattenkirk's trade value assuming he was extended. You either missed that or chose to ignore it. Stop being obtuse.

 

[Bluesman]

1. Yandle at the time of his trade was 27 and a half. How old is Shattenkirk? Yeah, not younger.

2. At the time, Yandle was pacing at .65ppg, and had put up .65ppg in the two seasons preceding. He was also riding an ironman streak and was one of the most consistently healthy top D in the league. He also put up those gaudy numbers playing for lousy, offensively starved Phoenix squads with little support. His career points per game at the time was almost the same as Shattenkirk. Shattenkirk had had the benefit of always playing on playoff teams with tons of talent. He also doesn't have the track record of constant health.

3. Shattenkirk is extended? I hadn't heard that? What's the contract look like? That's really big news you just broke. You're more connected than the insiders, I guess.

1. I didn't realize they were that close in age.
2. LOL. Who cares? That doesn't make a Yandle a significantly better (or more importantly, different) player than Shatty.
3.

Hypothetically speaking, let's assume for a minute that Shattenkirk would be willing to extend with Arizona.

What kind of package of prospects would the Yote's really be willing to part with knowing that the Blues are after higher end Center types. Could any of Strome, Keller or Dvorak be put in play or is Dauphin the best you'd be willing to part with?

 

[rt]

They were referencing Shattenkirk's trade value assuming he was extended. You either missed that or chose to ignore it. Stop being obtuse.

That's a stupid assumption and almost never happens.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

I think the problem is that when I am talking about Shattenkirk, I am talking about him with an extension. It is already well documented that a Shattenkirk trade would only happen with an extension in place, which is why I don't think Arizona is a part of the conversation. However, there are plenty of comparables to players being traded as rentals (at the deadline) getting similar to Yandle with two years left and retained. At the very least a player like Shattenkirk would return a 1st+prospect for a deadline rental. Asking for a top prospect+late first isn't ridiculous at all.

Also, over the past 3 years Shatty has a significantly better P/60 - even when he has only been getting good minutes/PP time for the last two years. Comparing P/60 should favor Yandle regardless of team considering the last two years were for the Rangers - not the Coyotes, and Yandle has always gotten better minutes. I don't think there's an argument to made that Yandle is/was somehow worth more than Shattenkirk unless you count the extra year of Yandle (at that point, I might agree that their value is very similar - not half). Assuming Shattenkirk agrees to an extension before trade (like many sources say hw is willing to do), then it's not even close.

 

[rt]

1. I didn't realize they were that close in age.
2. LOL. Who cares? That doesn't make a Yandle a significantly better (or more importantly, different) player than Shatty.
3.

2. February 15 Yandle was equally productive and more healthy and playing for ****** teams with no offense where he was by far and away the best offensive player in the team for years (as a defenseman). Obviously that has bearing when considering which is actually a more effective player. How could it not?

 

[rt]

I think the problem is that when I am talking about Shattenkirk, I am talking about him with an extension. It is already well documented that a Shattenkirk trade would only happen with an extension in place, which is why I don't think Arizona is a part of the conversation. However, there are plenty of comparables to players being traded as rentals (at the deadline) getting similar to Yandle with two years left and retained. At the very least a player like Shattenkirk would return a 1st+prospect for a deadline rental. Asking for a top prospect+late first isn't ridiculous at all.

Also, over the past 3 years Shatty has a significantly better P/60 - even when he has only been getting good minutes/PP time for the last two years. Comparing P/60 should favor Yandle regardless of team considering the last two years were for the Rangers - not the Coyotes, and Yandle has always gotten better minutes. I don't think there's an argument to made that Yandle is/was somehow worth more than Shattenkirk unless you count the extra year of Yandle (at that point, I might agree that their value is very similar - not half). Assuming Shattenkirk agrees to an extension before trade (like many sources say hw is willing to do), then it's not even close.

Wait? P/60 is huge in determining value but one being on an expiring contract and the other having another year left at the time is not?

Yandle then is basically Shattenkirk now, but with more term. Apart from term, the value would be comparably equal. But the term is a big deal. It's Shattwnkirk's term PLUS a deadline acquisition all in one. Yandle's value was Shattenkirks current value plus his deadline value.

 

[Bluesman]

That's a stupid assumption and almost never happens.

And yet you directly addressed the "stupid assumption" providing your opinion about the possible return: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=121080327&postcount=96

 

[Maurice of Orange]

Read ($3.625m cap hit, $4m salary) + Streit at 50% ($2.625m cap hit, $1m salary) + 2017 2nd or prospect

for

Rieder + Michalek ($3.2m cap hit/salary).


Then the Flyers sign Reider to a two year bridge deal at $3m AAV.

As a Flyers fan I wouldn't mind having Rieder on Philly's roster as a 2nd line LWer.

Z.Michalek is just a throw in to rid Arizona of some salary I assume, since Read's salary would be going the other way.

LW Schenn C Giroux RW Simmonds
LW Rieder C Couturier RW Voracek
LW Raffl C Cousins RW Weise
LW Laughton C Gordon RW Bellemare
Extra: VandeVelde

LD Del Zotto RD Gostisbehere
LD Provorov RD Gudas
LD Schultz RD Z. Michalek
Extra's MacDonald & Manning

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

Wait? P/60 is huge in determining value but one being on an expiring contract and the other having another year left at the time is not?


Yandle then is basically Shattenkirk now, but with more term. Apart from term, the value would be comparably equal. But the term is a big deal. It's Shattwnkirk's term PLUS a deadline acquisition all in one. Yandle's value was Shattenkirks current value plus his deadline value.

"their value is very similar - not half".

Shattenkirk, over the last two-three years has been a better player than Yandle was for the Coyotes. In '14-'15, Shattenkirk was the top P/60 Dman in the league - better than Karlsson. Yandle has never been top 5.

 

[Bluesman]

2. February 15 Yandle was equally productive and more healthy and playing for ****** teams with no offense where he was by far and away the best offensive player in the team for years (as a defenseman). Obviously that has bearing when considering which is actually a more effective player. How could it not?

It doesn't make him "significantly better", i.e. twice as valuable (which was your original claim).

A prior poster said it best. Stop being obtuse.

 

[kimzey59]

Sure. But seems to me that St. Louis would be more interested in Stone, no?

IMO no. Even without Shattenkirk the Blues are 12 deep with viable options on Defense(Petro, Bouw, Gunnarson, Parayko, Edmundson, Bortuzzo, Lindbohm, Butler, Hunt, Schmaltz, Vannelli, Ellis). While we've signed a couple decent tweener type forwards to give Chicago some depth, our forward prospects are still pretty lacking; especially at the Center position and even more so in terms of near NHL ready guys(we literally have 2 guys that fit that criteria: Rattie and Barbashev).

Assuming we can't snag one of your big 3 up front, I would be far more intrigued at grabbing 2 of the guys in the next teir than getting a replacement for Shattenkirk. We have internal options to fill that spot.

 

[rt]

I don't think you people know what it means to accuse someone of being obtuse. Google that. I really couldn't be more be more direct or coherent. Because 2-15 Yandle is equivalent value to 8-16 Shattenkirk, the extra deadline+playoff gives him significantly more trade value. How much more? Easy to calculate. It's the cost of acquiring a player with this value prior to a season start added to the cost of acquiring such a player at a trade deadline. Yandle represent both. And all that garnered was a very late 2nd, a future very late 1st and a B+ prospect. Expect significantly less than that if ou trade Shattenkirk prior to the season. Half the value was an exaggeration. Two thirds the value would be more accurate. AZ got three actual assets. Ditch one either the B+ prospect or the very late future 1st and you've got about 2/3rds value. Which is roughly what you should expect for Shattenkirk. Unless you want to argue market conditions. I don't have energy to bother with that.

 

[rt]

IMO no. Even without Shattenkirk the Blues are 12 deep with viable options on Defense(Petro, Bouw, Gunnarson, Parayko, Edmundson, Bortuzzo, Lindbohm, Butler, Hunt, Schmaltz, Vannelli, Ellis). While we've signed a couple decent tweener type forwards to give Chicago some depth, our forward prospects are still pretty lacking; especially at the Center position and even more so in terms of near NHL ready guys(we literally have 2 guys that fit that criteria: Rattie and Barbashev).

Assuming we can't snag one of your big 3 up front, I would be far more intrigued at grabbing 2 of the guys in the next teir than getting a replacement for Shattenkirk. We have internal options to fill that spot.

Interesting. That surprises me. I could part with Dauphin and MacInnis, probably.

 

[cobra427]

IMO no. Even without Shattenkirk the Blues are 12 deep with viable options on Defense(Petro, Bouw, Gunnarson, Parayko, Edmundson, Bortuzzo, Lindbohm, Butler, Hunt, Schmaltz, Vannelli, Ellis). While we've signed a couple decent tweener type forwards to give Chicago some depth, our forward prospects are still pretty lacking; especially at the Center position and even more so in terms of near NHL ready guys(we literally have 2 guys that fit that criteria: Rattie and Barbashev).

Assuming we can't snag one of your big 3 up front, I would be far more intrigued at grabbing 2 of the guys in the next teir than getting a replacement for Shattenkirk. We have internal options to fill that spot.

This was a reply to RT, sorry:
Agreed. Since a team trading for Yandle got him for 2 playoff runs, they didn't need to extend him. Shatty might be unwilling to extend with anyone unless he is traded to a team he really likes and is paid RHD UFA money/term/NMC. That could really narrow down the list of teams that Shatty could extend with considering salary cap issues. There might not be a match of a team Shatty wants go to, a team that can give him the extension he wants, and a return the Blues would want for an extended Shatty. He can wait it our and be a UFA when he has all the leverage and teams can maneuver more cap space by then and sign him for zero assets.This might make more sense for Shatty and the team that signs him.

This leads me to believe he is likely a one year rental. I could see the Blues keeping him this year or at least until the TDL. So yes, Yandle was worth more when he was traded than an unextended Shatty today.

 

[AZviaNJ]

Shatty -14 during regular season when team was 25 games over .500 then -8 in 20 playoff games....both worst on the (very good) team. Also getting protected minutes behind Bouw/Petro. I hope the Coyotes lol elsewhere.

 

[Jakey53]

If they can't get this bigger deal done that Morgan is hinting about, I wouldn't be surprised for Tippett to lean on Z early until Stone is fully recovered. Look at Z's icetime the last 7 games of the season. Averaging nearly 21 minutes per game. Z is declining, but I don't think Tip's afraid to use him if need be.

This. Everyone is down on Z, but I would be fine if he was on the third pairing.

 

[thewookie1]

Sure. Wouldn't give up anything of value, though. Michalek@50% and a 3rd or something. If you don't want Michalek, even at half off, I guess we could just buy him out. That makes Franson awful pricey for a guy that's going to swap in and out of the line-up with Schenn once Stone is healthy.

May I ask what's wrong with Michalek?

Would Franson be worth a 2nd and Michalek (10-25%)?

 

[Avs44]

Today's equivalent return would be a 2017 50-60th pick, a 2018 20-30th pick, a B+ prospect and a warm body. Shattenkirk gives the acquiring team significantly less utility however because he's on an expiring contract, whereas Yandle wasn't. That probably drops either the prospect or late first.

I don't agree with calling Duclair just a B level prospect. He was really, really highly regarded back then. I remember the hype for him after his stint on the Rangers and the WJC was quite high. He was viewed as a high end prospect, and certainly the centerpiece of that deal. I think you'd be looking at one of the top two offensive prospects as an equivalent from most teams in the league. On some, obviously not the case, e.g. some don't have anyone as good, some are stacked, but I think you're underplaying him.

 

[Kyle003p]

I don't think you people know what it means to accuse someone of being obtuse. Google that. I really couldn't be more be more direct or coherent. Because 2-15 Yandle is equivalent value to 8-16 Shattenkirk, the extra deadline+playoff gives him significantly more trade value. How much more? Easy to calculate. It's the cost of acquiring a player with this value prior to a season start added to the cost of acquiring such a player at a trade deadline. Yandle represent both. And all that garnered was a very late 2nd, a future very late 1st and a B+ prospect. Expect significantly less than that if ou trade Shattenkirk prior to the season. Half the value was an exaggeration. Two thirds the value would be more accurate. AZ got three actual assets. Ditch one either the B+ prospect or the very late future 1st and you've got about 2/3rds value. Which is roughly what you should expect for Shattenkirk. Unless you want to argue market conditions. I don't have energy to bother with that.

Coyotes also retained 50% of yandles salary, I'd imagine that helped quite a bit with the return we got