Could Utah be a future home for the NHL?

[Tawnos]

I will try and not sound like a pretentious Canadian Hockey fan when I say this
No location would surprise me at this point.
In 1993 (last time a Canadian team won the Cup)who would I have fathomed that Quebec would move to Denver, Winnipeg would move to Arizona, a city in Georgia would get an expansion team only to relocate to Winnipeg? That there would be 2 teams in Florida, 3 Teams in California, a team in Texas, and another in Columbus Ohio? And of course Las Vegas Nevada..?
Truly not intending to bash any fan base from any of those areas... but in 1993 if I told the average Canadian it would be 26 years for a Canadian team to win the Cup and there would be more teams in California, Florida, Texas, Nevada, and Arizona combined than all of Canada I would of thought you nuts.

When a Canadian team last won a Cup, both teams in Florida were already confirmed (one had already started playing, the other would start 4 months later), all 3 in California had been confirmed (2 had already started playing, the other would start 4 months later), and the team in Texas was already confirmed (and would start 4 months later). Most people would have “fathomed” those things just fine, since they had already happened.

For a “pretentious Canadian fan,” you sure seem light on knowledge.

 

[Vacheron]

I would assume he means too spread out. Austin and San Antonio are actually 2 cities, whose centers are 80 miles apart. That's close enough that in many ways, it becomes one market. But, it's too spread out to expect people from one city or its far suburbs to travel on a week night to game in the other city.

You nailed it. I live in North Austin. If they built a stadium in the I-35 corridor between Austin and San Antonio, it would take me well over an hour to get to the stadium with normal traffic, let alone real congestion. San Antonio and Austin are close, but they're not that close.

 

[varsaku]

Utah is too small of a market that doesnt add much value to future TV deals. Utah is also very fickle fan base and supports their teams only when good. That is definitely not what the NHL is looking for.

Unless a team moves their through relocation, the expansion fees make a team the unviable.

 

[MikeCubs]

Utah is too small of a market that doesnt add much value to future TV deals. Utah is also very fickle fan base and supports their teams only when good. That is definitely not what the NHL is looking for.

Unless a team moves their through relocation, the expansion fees make a team the unviable.

You might want to take a look at the Jazz historical attendance and rethink that. David Stern is on record as saying that they have the best fan base in the NBA. He knows a think or 2 about basketball.

I do agree though that the NHL isn't coming to Utah given the arena and market size. 1 team+MLS is just right for Utah.

 

[Vacheron]

You might want to take a look at the Jazz historical attendance and rethink that. David Stern is on record as saying that they have the best fan base in the NBA. He knows a think or 2 about basketball.

I do agree though that the NHL isn't coming to Utah given the arena and market size. 1 team+MLS is just right.

This is a common trap sports fans fall into. Attendance is important but it is not nearly as important as TV market. The best expansion markets are the TV markets not tapped by the NHL. TV pays the bills in major sports. Attendance is a sizable piece, but it's second.

 

[MikeCubs]

This is a common trap sports fans fall into. Attendance is important but it is not nearly as important as TV market. The best expansion markets are the TV markets not tapped by the NHL. TV pays the bills in major sports. Attendance is a sizable piece, but it's second.

Agree but it's important and makes a market worth having even if it's a smaller market like a Salt Lake City in the NBA(or San Antonio, Portland, Sacramento, OKC) or in the NHL(Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg , Nashville, Vegas etc)...

Salt Lake city is not that big of a TV market.
The NHL is after huge TV markets like Seattle/Houston and smaller markets with no competition or only NFL competition, not the smaller 1 team NBA markets of the world.
Denver is the smallest NBA/NHL market. They rank 17th tv wise last I checked. They also have 21 fortune 1000 companies.

The NHL isn't going to go to a market around 30th TV wise that has only 3 fortune 1000 companies and no prospects of an NHL arena and face competition from the Jazz. Utah works for basketball because of the outstanding attendance and no other competition. A smaller market is going to have a lesser local tv deal so you have less leeway as far as attendance.

Utah would be a good market a couple decades from now after more growth/an NHL compatible arena.

Look at the markets the NHL has added the last 25-30 years or wanted to add.

TV market size

2. Anaheim
5. Dallas
7. Houston- exceptionally rich too
8. San Jose
11. Tampa Bay
12. Phoenix
13. Seattle -very rich too
16. Miami- This don't count no.37 West Palm Beach
17. Colorado- decent sized market, very rich, very fast growth rate, this don't count Colorado Springs

Smaller markets
25. Raleigh- small but fasting growing and no other pro teams
27. Nashville- smaller market but only competition is the once a week NFL
34. Columbus- small but no other pro competition
39. Las Vegas- smaller market but only competition is soon to be the NFL

The NHL has avoided smaller over-saturated markets ala the NBA. The biggest market they have picked tv wise with either NBA or MLB competition is Denver at 17th. The only small(er) markets(below 17th) they picked similar to Salt Lake City size have no competition or only the once a week NFL.

The only markets outside the top 19 that have 2 or more of NHL/NBA/MLB are

21. St. Louis
24. Pittsburgh
36. Milwaukee-This don't count 69. Green Bay-Appleton or 81 Madison.

The Cardinals-Blues, Penguins-Pirates and Brewers-Bucks have been around a long time and were grandfathered in. They never had to pay a modern day expansion fee. Could St. Louis afford a Seattle expansion price for NHL, or Milwaukee NBA or Pittsburgh for MLB?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I would vote "no" for the following reasons (most already laid out upthread):

• Non-centralized sprawl in the metro area. Yes, the Olympics-gifted rail system would be a huge help in cutting down commute times to games for people in the North Salt Lake/Ogden and South Salt Lake/Provo/Orem areas, but only if the fans are motivated, which leads me to...
• ...lack of interest. SLC is a fine minor-hockey market, but having lived extensively in both the SLC/Provo corridor and in rural Utah, there is major league appetite for only two sports - basketball, and football. And the latter is mostly for college ball, not pro. Hockey is the answer to a question nobody in Utah is really asking, unless maybe you were talking about moving the USNTDP there.
• There is also no real existing venue in SLC proper that could host NHL hockey. As stated above, the Jazz' arena would have to be retrofitted, and it would face the same issues that have torpedoed Brooklyn and that torpedoes the old America West Arena in Phoenix. Then, too, the hockey team would be a tenant-over-a-barrel like the Coyotes were back in the day, and that would be an untenable position for an expansion/relocation team trying to convert a populace that is largely indifferent to hockey to the game.
• Ownership? I can't think of a single person of means who has an eye on Utah as a place for an NHL franchise. Most of the NHL fans I know in Utah - and they are a rare breed - are die-hard Avs fans and it's not that huge a trip to catch a game in Denver. And now with Vegas online it's only a hop, skip, and jump to get there from SLC if people want. So what you have is a city that has the right climate, but no real passion for the game (or indeed, pro sports in general outside of the NBA and downhill skiing) and no position to satisfy a large unserved regional demand.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I would say that something that should be remembered is that if a market doesn't have a team currently, there's very probably a reason for that. Some markets, it's just as "simple" as lacking a suitable area. For others, there can be loads of reasons (lack of corporate sponsorships, small market, over-saturated already, just doesn't care about the sport in general, etc.). So, wheverever the NHL expands after Seattle, there will be blemishes against them. You could easily come up with knocks against huge markets like Houston or hockey hotbeds like Quebec City.

That being said, I still circle Utah as a very distant expansion possibility and not really worth of discussion for the time being. Maybe in 50 or so years, but for teams 33, 34, 35, 36.... pretty low odds.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

That being said, I still circle Utah as a very distant expansion possibility and not really worth of discussion for the time being. Maybe in 50 or so years, but for teams 33, 34, 35, 36.... pretty low odds.

I dunno. I think if there was a window of opportunity for SLC, it was immediately after the 2002 Winter Olympics. With each successive year the possibility seems to diminish.

I do understand why they keep getting brought up, though. The whole (mistaken) idea that pro hockey needs to be in a place where there is snow makes Utah seemingly a natural fit. But it really isn't. I'd be talking about many other cities long before I'd talk about Salt Lake - Milwaukee, for instance, or Indianapolis.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I think a reason is because Salt Lake does have a massive winter sports scene, is relatively untapped (only NBA, MLS, and NCAA as competition), and is very rapidly growing and wealthy. At least to me, those look like very attractive longterm options.

I still have doubts about Milwaukee and Indy from an NHL's perspective due to a lot of issues. They certainly have the population edge over Salt Lake, but they also are much more oversaturated from a sports perspective already (Indy has NBA, NFL, and numerous collegiate teams, Milwaukee has MLB, NBA, their support of Green Bay, and collegiate distractions as well), don't remotely have as much of a growth rate, and have had suffering economies. If I'm being a hundred percent honest, I don't think they're realistic expansion targets short or longterm whereas I give Utah at least decent longterm odds.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I guess we'll see... I remain pessimistic, though, if for no other reason than I've lived there and, barring a radical reversal of a great many elements - cultural and financial - I don't see a Salt Lake NHL team ever gaining any traction (as entertaining as whatever bee-themed uniform they'd come up with would be ).

 

[Vacheron]

I think a reason is because Salt Lake does have a massive winter sports scene, is relatively untapped (only NBA, MLS, and NCAA as competition), and is very rapidly growing and wealthy. At least to me, those look like very attractive longterm options.

I still have doubts about Milwaukee and Indy from an NHL's perspective due to a lot of issues. They certainly have the population edge over Salt Lake, but they also are much more oversaturated from a sports perspective already (Indy has NBA, NFL, and numerous collegiate teams, Milwaukee has MLB, NBA, their support of Green Bay, and collegiate distractions as well), don't remotely have as much of a growth rate, and have had suffering economies. If I'm being a hundred percent honest, I don't think they're realistic expansion targets short or longterm whereas I give Utah at least decent longterm odds.

Yeah, they're better off trying Austin/San Antonio than Indianapolis. Heck, Austin and Indianapolis are similar sized. This is all kind of silly because Houston doesn't have a team.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Truth be told, Austin might not be a bad option, especially as that's reasonably the only sport where they wouldn't have to compete with the Longhorns on. San Antonio seems more like an NFL or bust location.... maybe MLB.

Houston will happen eventually, it's far too big to never get an NHL team, but all depends on the arena and ownership situation, which was the blocking point back when Les Alexander mattered.

 

[MikeCubs]

Would love to see Austin get a team after Houston and Quebec City. Austin is the largest open area without a pro team. It also has the fastest growth rate of any area over 1M people. Austin is already 2.1M people. That's plenty of population as it is for at least 1 team. NBA wouldn't come with San Antonio so close, NFL will likely pick San Antonio if they want another Texas NFL team, MLB is too hard to support with only 2.1M people. NHL would be the perfect sport!

 

[gstommylee]

Would love to see Austin get a team after Houston and Quebec City. Austin is the largest open area without a pro team. It also has the fastest growth rate of any area over 1M people. Austin is already 2.1M people. That's plenty of population as it is for at least 1 team. NBA wouldn't come with San Antonio so close, NFL will likely pick San Antonio if they want another Texas NFL team, MLB is too hard to support with only 2.1M people. NHL would be the perfect sport!

Austin is too close to houston.

 

[MikeCubs]

Austin is too close to houston.

It's 146 miles away. The same distance from Seattle to Portland.

 

[HisIceness]

Austin is another one that is a better option than Utah. Better than Portland too IMO.

But lets not kid ourselves, Houston will get a team before Austin. By then if it happens, Austin may be SOL.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Austin is too close to houston.

The Triangle incorporating Austin, Dallas, and Houston has enough population and market size to have major league franchises in each city if the leagues wanted to do it, no problem whatsoever.

 

[gstommylee]

It's 146 miles away. The same distance from Seattle to Portland.

They are also under the same market though. Not going to happen.

 

[MikeCubs]

They are also under the same market though. Not going to happen.

What do you mean? They are different TV markets, different CSA's/metros, they meet the NHL rules on how close you can place a franchise to each other.

 

[HisIceness]

They are also under the same market though. Not going to happen.

This comment confuses me. How are they "under the same market"? They are two different cities/metros/tv markets

 

[The Feckless Puck]

This comment confuses me. How are they "under the same market"? They are two different cities/metros/tv markets

It's a misunderstanding of the scale of the state of Texas and of the Triangle. A lot of people erroneously think that because those three cities are all in the same state, it's all one big market.

 

[Cacciaguida]

I don't see the NHL ever going to salt lake.

But I can see the Golden Knights moving an AHL team and naming them the Golden Eagles.

 

[HisIceness]

It's a misunderstanding of the scale of the state of Texas and of the Triangle. A lot of people erroneously think that because those three cities are all in the same state, it's all one big market.

Yeah I have noticed this too and I don't get it. It's no secret Texas covers a good chunk of land.

 

[frontsfan2005]

I don't think the NHL will expand past 32 teams for a very long time, so scratch expansion.

As for relocation, before Salt Lake City to be considered, they would need an NHL ready arena at least in the works to be built. Apparently the Vivint Smart Home Arena just underwent a renovation, so it's unlikely a new arena will be built in the foreseeable future. I don't think the NHL wants the headache of a team playing in a basketball arena in which there are issues with obstructive seating (think Phoenix and Brooklyn as two recent examples).

As for western relocation cities, they are behind Houston, Portland and Kansas City for cities the NHL would want to be in over Salt Lake City due to size, NHL ready arenas, and in the case of KC, lack of NBA competition.

I would think if Utah was craving another pro team, they'd likely try to get an NFL team.

Stranger things have happened, however, I think it'll be quite a while before Salt Lake City would be a favourite for an NHL team.